Power words

[gotesu]

Haven't tested it, but I can't see anything in the script for power word kill about it being blocked by mind immunity. There's no delay when targeting a single creature either, it's as instantaneous as any other instantaneous spell (which means instant effect, not instant casting time).

I did a check again with power word kill against a CR 5 myconid spore again - It only gave a notice that it was blocked due to death spell immunity, so I guess last time I tested I got mind spell immunity notice because I held it with a bigby to check the range.

About the instantaneous - The thought was to make at an instant cast time - like uttering a single word.

It would be cool to improve the power word spells, but changing it to a saveVsWill or whatever would just make it like so many other spells imo, ruin it's unique flavor. And changing the HP limits is hard to balance.

I agree with that, I think the challenge is to make it unique and not just another save/or else spell, but on the other hand the way it is now is utterly useless.

[Blackman D]

then we would have to change implosion because thats exactly how that one is suppose to work in the first place, concentration till you die

anyway changing it like that makes it no different than other spells and its like you may as well just remove it because its not going to be what it was intended

the only viable options i can see while keeping the spell its own, is increase hp which as already pointed out is hard to balance, or the other idea of % base of hp remaining

something like 80% of hp would potentially increase the amount of hp drastically while neutralizing any pvp worry because it wouldnt work if you are full hp

problem with that is because of the drastic gain from it, leaving the SR would probably need to be a thing as well

[Steve]

If it came to be that the change was to cause x-percentage point drain, then how would Spell Focus line of Feats benefit the Build? Unless one imagines that the base line is 60%, and increasing 10% with every Feat (Epic giving 90%).

[Blackman D]

more like 65 +5 for 80, 90 is a bit much

not to mention you would have to add it to all the bosses immunity

[Steve]

Again, another problem: exaggerated Immunities on Bosses (and mobs).

This is why I, personally, would rather just see a Save / DC inplementation (even though Bosses have inflated Saves AND Steadfast).

It might make Divination just like the other Schools, but at least it would work in the BGTSCC environment, without making many extra changes all over to compensate for something custom and unique but not actually applicable because you just end up neutering it with Immunities!

[Tsidkenu]

I think Sigil used a system of %HP or less than X HP which made a good PvE balance change (%HP did not apply to PCs):

Power Word Kill - Less than 20% HP or 101 HP.
Power Word Petrify - Less than 25% HP or 101 HP.
Power Word Stun - Less than 50% HP or 151 HP
Power Word Blind - Less than 60% HP or 201 HP
Power Word Disable - Less than 30% HP or 51 HP
Power Word Weaken - Less than 75% HP or 75 HP
Power Word Maladroit - Less than 75% HP or 75 HP

BGTSCC has two spells designed to bolster the effectiveness of Power Words:

Inhundyl's Primer Sorc/Wiz 6, Divination. Save vs. Will, else Power Words are considered +50 HP more effective. Duration 24 hrs.
Anthilar's Bane: Sorc/Wiz 9, Divination. Save vs. Will, else target is considered to have -50% current HP for Power Words. Duration 24 hrs.

The only bother is wasting a round to see if the target will succumb to Inhundyl's/Anthilar's before you Power Word it.

Power Word Blind is, of all of them, severely underrated and an excellent spell that does not really require changing.

Power Word Petrify is better than Power Word Kill. It is 1 level lower and works on creatures immune to death spells.

It would be nice is Power Word Disable also forced the target into a prone position for 1d4+1 rounds, so they actually are completely disabled and cannot chug potions, use Teleport scroll, flee or perform other 'I'm not disabled' actions.

It would be nice if Power Word Maladroit caused the target to fumble their equipped weapon (Disarm effect).

It would be nice if Power Word Weaken caused the target to become fatigued and/or encumbered (slowed?).

[Hoihe]

Reacting to what Hoihe just wrote, if Power Word Kill did 100 dmg per round as long as Concentration is held by the Caster, THEN it would be pretty cool!!

Maybe Power Word Stun and all the rest would function the same way: Caster holds the enemy with the Word, but only through Concentration Check (and cannot perform other actions ?!?). Then the rest of the Party could bash the sucka back to the Nine Hells.

That does genuinely sound awesome.


Making it percent based also works, and actually be worth using.

more like 65 +5 for 80, 90 is a bit much

not to mention you would have to add it to all the bosses immunity

Not sure why we'd need bosses needing more immunities. At worst, create a "Counts as having 20% more HP" mechanic to make them harder to slap.

[Blackman D]

because they tend to not like "bosses" getting one shotted which is how how most all of the immunities and inflated stats came to be, scratching a boss then then making them suddenly die would definitely count as that

...you can blame the RWs... except for the % sonic immunity... that you can blame the bards

[K'yon Oblodra]

Promoting my own idea here XD.

I still like the idea of competing skill rolls for spellcraft.
Would make it stronger against most targets with higher hp and unchanged basically against those with lower hp but most likely spellcraft as skill.

By how much we'd improve it could be easily fine tuned.

Beating the other by 10 points could just be an increment of 5 or 10 or even 2 hp, easily adjustable.

Also it would be unique compared to the other spells.

[Blackman D]

the only way i can see that working is if the benefit is split between base skill points and feats, 5% per feat and 5% per 10 ranks, 50% of max hp to uo 80%

but any spell caster regardless is going to max out spellcraft so its not like it will be as special as you think, you would be getting a benefit for doing what you were going to do in the first place -- it would be more of a restriction to non spell casters using UMD than anything else

but i would be fine with that sure

[Steve]

Change the Skill to Lore: Arcana. With the idea that with a greater knowledge of arcane lore, one “acquires” more powerful Words of Power.

But let’s take a step back: if it’s a spell called Power Word: Kill, but you can only “kill” a foe up to 80%-to-death, then...that’s not a kill, mate. You’d be better off changing the names of the spells, like Power Word: Maim.

[K'yon Oblodra]

Well my idea was not balancing the spell around something you would take extra, just around a skill that some classes have and some don't.

Those with high HP would normally have low spellcraft and those with low HP would normally have high spellcraft. This would totally suck for rogues admittedly.

The idea was also not making it depend on the skill itself but skill rolls of the two creatures involved so the targets roll vs the caster's roll.

The initial idea was not bound to percentages but rather flat HP.

A) So basically if you roll idk a 10+60 spellcraft vs a fighter with low to no spell craft rolling maybe 5 + 0 spellcraft you would get a difference of 65 points.

B) If a spellcaster would fight another spellcaster this could look more like 15+60 vs 10+60 and would be only 5 points differential.

Now we would need to decide how much HP you'd add per point you are above your opponents roll so instead of being 101 HP the spell might work with +5 for any 10 you are above your opponents roll. So for example A) that would be 6*5 = 30 => 131 while for example B) it would be 0*5 = 0 => 101 so unchanged.

That was the principle of the idea now one could play with the values should it rather count increments of 5 by which you beat your opponents roll? Should the bonus to HP be smaller or greater?

The spell focus feats could make it so that you'd get a take 5 or take 10 or take 20 respectively or just add more HP whatever would be better for balancing.

[Blackman D]

Change the Skill to Lore: Arcana. With the idea that with a greater knowledge of arcane lore, one “acquires” more powerful Words of Power.

But let’s take a step back: if it’s a spell called Power Word: Kill, but you can only “kill” a foe up to 80%-to-death, then...that’s not a kill, mate. You’d be better off changing the names of the spells, like Power Word: Maim.

your argument is a bit null and voided by the original spell is it not? someone having 101+ hp also isnt going to die from it either

% wise someone with 600hp, like a barbarian, would have to be taken down to 16.8% of their health to get to 101 for it to work... whereas someone with 125hp would be down to 80.8% of their health at 101; so you really dont have any ground to say 80% isnt good enough when it allows you to kill the barbarian at 480hp instead of 101

Well my idea was not balancing the spell around something you would take extra, just around a skill that some classes have and some don't...

honestly that sounds more complicated than it needs to be for a spell

its not the same as bluff vs feint for example where you are going to easily have multiple attempts to feint a target to see if its going to work or not; with spells you may only get one chance and then if you do lose the roll you are talking about it not even working -- not that it is bad but no one likes random failures with limited things like spells, which is why most people were pissed about the random failures with summonings, you may only prep one spell just so it randomly fails and you have to wait 20 mins to rest to get another one... also why there was talk of removing the random failure, i dont remember what happened tho

anyway it sounds like you want to add another layer of defense to the victim but its really not needed, they already have one based off of hp and then can just use bonus hp spells or items to up it even more if its really a concern

then there is the argument that someone specialized in using power word spells are going to have a solid idea after a while of when the soonest they can use the spell is going to be, so having a random factor that isnt triggered until the spell is used simply wouldnt be fair for the caster, even if its only mostly going to be against other casters... when you would probably really wanna use it as soon as you could

it really just does not sound like a favorable suggestion, too much randomness for this type of spell

[gotesu]

I tend to agree that switching the current mechanic to be percentage based instead of numerical based seems like the simplest way to make the spell actually effective while being as close as possible to the original way the spell works.

Making the different power words work on different initial percentages (like kill to start at 60%, petrify at 65%, stun at 70% and blind at 75%) and add 5% for each spell focus feat in divination - or having an equivalent calculation that is based on DC?

[Steve]

your argument is a bit null and voided by the original spell is it not? someone having 101+ hp also isnt going to die from it either

Not really. Because my argument is based off of DnD stats for Monsters, to which the Power Word line of spells was designed for.

As in my earlier example, a Cornugon in DnD has an average of 82 HP.

The problem i see here is that with “less than x %” setup, a Divination specialist can never use their main-build-for-strengths until...later. Like, a few rounds later, after utilizing some other means of attack or another party member. You’d always have to wait and guesstimate when the SINGLE foe was within the power curve.

That’s lame and a gameplay penalty in contrast to all other Schools.

You gotta think about how to make a change FUN to play.