Monk Class Tweak Thoughts

[Bobbydean]

Wanted to think out loud for a while on tweaks for monk class that I've been thinking about for a while. I'm not saying these are changes that are necessary, but just thoughts I've had since playing a monk on BG on some tweaks. Hope you enjoy the read, and I look forward to some discussion on people's thoughts. Disclaimer: In no way do I feel monks are underpowered or "need" any of these changes to be viable or "good" class - just wanted to make that clear.

First, before I get into specific feats, here are what I see as Monks major "areas of improvement". Note, I see these as mechanical shortcomings to be addressed, not weaknesses - every class does and should have weaknesses, but the below items I feel are more mechanical issues that detract from the Monk's RP and ethos:

- Heal Kit Spammers - I just don't think the image of a monk as self-sufficient was meant to include the fact that they just have to spam heal kits constantly
- Lack of reason to go "mid-monk". People tend to have to go pure monk or stop at early levels (greater flurry) but there's little reward for going 15, or 20 levels of monk
- Lack of Options/Goodies in epic levels
- Feats that are basically glorified effects of potions/wands

OK, onto specifics:

1. Wholeness of Body - What. Is. This. Feat? LOL The name and description implies (correctly so) that the monk has mastered their bodies and achieved such a fine control over their physical training that they can literally regenerate their health. An image comes to mind of kung fu movies where the hero/villain has been beaten to a pulp, looks moments away from death, and yet.....BAM, somehow they spring back to life out of nowhere seeming to conjure new life/energy/etc out of thin air to continue the fight or even win! Well, not this feat in it's current state. It should currently be called "Drink a Potion". This feat does little more than save the monk one single sip of a Cure X Wounds potion. What would I recommend? Well, if it were up to me I'd allow it to fully refill the monks health pool AND be on a fairly long cooldown, perhaps 5 minutes. The goal here is to give that kung fu movie "bounce back to life" effect. Also, with a decent cooldown, I don't think it would be OP.

2. Lack of progression of Monk Speed into epic levels - Not much to say here, I just don't get why it doesn't progress past level 18. Seems like a key part of the monk playstyle, I think the progression should continue all the way to level 30 just like unarmed damage, ac bonus, SR, etc does.

3. Lack of Monk Order Prestige Classes - Granted, this one isn't an easy fix for the developers like many other of these suggestions, but I think it's sad that there aren't more RP-friendly options beyond Monk of the Long Death to choose from (which is very niche from an RP perspective). In my dream world, there would be 5 to 10 orders to choose from. One focusing on defense, one on damage, one on stealth, one on speed, etc.

4. Strength/Dex Options for Wisdom centric Feats - Back before we had "Intuitive Attack", it made sense for feats like Stunning Fist, Quivering Palm, Fiery Fist, etc to be wisdom based because you had to SACRIFICE dex or strength (your damage and/or hit bonus stats) for wisdom. However, with Intuitive attack, you can just go pure Wisdom and have both high attack AND uber feats. My suggestion would be to give these feats a damage/bonus/duration boost of 1/2 strength mod + 1/2 dex mod + 1/2 wis mod - in place of the current wisdom-only modifier settings. Perhaps in cases such as fiery fist where this doesn't make as much sense RP-wise, give a sonic option that is strength and dex based (ie you fists are faster than sound) that would make sense RP-wise?

5. Empty Body - This feat is right now a glorifed version of the effect of a wand/item. For 18 levels in monk, I think there should be a bigger reward for getting your 18th level in monk. My suggestion would be instead of a couple uses of Displacement, a permanent 30% concealment perhaps would do the trick? Someting along those lines.

6. Perfect Self - Congratulations, you made it to level 20! Here's damage reduction that mimics a low level spell. Sigh. Personally I think that this feat should include 10/- damage reduction for all sources. RP reason? I always thought the DR in this feat was meant to mimic the fact that the Monk "master" could simply wade through lesser blows, deflecting them as one would a fly or a falling leaf. As in minor stuff is so inconsequential to the trained Master that it barely registers.

7. Ki Step - I get why this feat was "fixed" however, the fact that even a small hill blocks it is problematic. I feel that requirement should be removed so that it works outdoors in hilly terrain and the maximum distance be increased also for outdoor reasons.

Okay, those are my humble thoughts - enjoy reading your responses!

[AC81]

As someone who plays monks, I’d love to see all these changes ... however, implementing them would result in making an already very powerful class even more powerful.
So as much as it hurts to say, I think we should avoid changes like the ones posted above.

The one change I ever wanted to monks was to make the gloves occupy a weapon slot which would free up the arm/bracer slot. For a class that is so MAD that would be a really handy change while not giving the monk anything that other classes can’t get.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

I only agree with #1 here (that feat is useless) and just maybe #5. But overall monks are really strong and don't need any buffs, while their movespeed progression is straight up imbalanced up to the point of breaking immersion when the character just walks with ridicolous speed all the time. #7 is a technical issue rather than a balance one, #3 and #4 just requires finding an interested class designer and selling them this idea.

[Steve]

... breaking immersion when the character just walks with ridicolous speed all the time.

Valefort scripted a Feat—every PC gets it now I think—that allows for Normal Speed walking (especially for the issue stated above). FWIW.

[Theodore01]

5. is very very useful and lasts much longer than from any wand/cloak.

6. Yes, that is useless. As at lv. 20 almost anyone you fight has a magic weapon. (there was talk about changeing that a few years ago)

- Heal Kit Spammers - I just don't think the image of a monk as self-sufficient was meant to include the fact that they just have to spam heal kits constantly

As most monks can get good+high AC, one barely needs a heal kit at all. Get some glove/weapon with vamp. to heal up while fighting - even without any EB that works well.

- Lack of reason to go "mid-monk". People tend to have to go pure monk or stop at early levels (greater flurry) but there's little reward for going 15, or 20 levels of monk

Mo 16 is a key point for any fist user. With the remaining 14 levels you can do some interesting builds.
M 20 gives fist damage + AC increase, both will increase with more epic monk levels.

[izzul]

As someone who plays monks, I’d love to see all these changes ... however, implementing them would result in making an already very powerful class even more powerful.
So as much as it hurts to say, I think we should avoid changes like the ones posted above.

The one change I ever wanted to monks was to make the gloves occupy a weapon slot which would free up the arm/bracer slot. For a class that is so MAD that would be a really handy change while not giving the monk anything that other classes can’t get.

Agree with AC81 that monks are already very powerful class. even a new person that just played on the server for 6 months that made a monk claims they can solo everything now.

agree with gloves occupy a weapon slot to free up arm/bracer slot. also for PVE content/DM event monks need
-glove alchemical silver against Devils
-glove cold iron against Demon
or suffer reduced damage 3-15DR/- against these creatures

[Theodore01]

.... or suffer reduced damage 3-15DR/- against these creatures

Thes "suffer" quite well

Changing gloves to a weapon slot is a bad idea - monks get more fist damage for sacrificing an equipment slot, that's balanced.

[chad878262]

Monk 3 - key part of one of the highest damage/best sneak attack builds
Monk 6 - Improved Knockdown. One of the options to stop at if making a high Caster Level Sacred Fist. I forget the exact split, but something like C10/M6/SF10/H4 which gets CL28. I might have it mixed up and may require C13/M6/SF7/H4 for CL29 as I don't recall how the leveling works for it...
M11 - Uber insane APR PTWF Assassin builds, F12 mixes, etc.
M13 - Required if you want Blazing Aura
M16 - Required if you want Adamantine Fists
M20 - Popular stopping point for players that stack WIS (i.e. M20/DC10 since DC can take Great WIS with bonus feats in epics). Also where some Sacred Fists stop (M20/C3/SF7)
M25/SD5 - Epic Dodge, HiPS plus still getting good fist damage means defensively you are ridiculously impossible to kill while still maintaining OK offense.
M26/F4 - Some go this route since you can get WS and melee mastery on your fists for +3 AB, +4 damage, but it is kinda not worth it since you lose out on hitting 3d10 fist damage, get lower Spell Resistance, lose an epic feat and a point of AC.

In my opinion Monk is one of the most diverse classes that has a multitude of stopping points with various strengths and weaknesses for selecting them. They are also more than capable of soloing nearly all of the content so I don't really see what purpose it would possibly serve to make them even stronger.

[Jepop]

As someone who has played a monk pretty much my entire time on this server these changes are good but I'm afraid this would make them too OP. Monk is already a strong class and extremely versatile when it comes to character builds.

[lavd]

3. you have sacred fist. doubt anyone will be composing class package for monk unless you do yourself (class package like warrior, paladin etc. have)
you can supposedly use combat stances to get some AC or AB
4. going pure wisdom you will loose damage, monk does not wear armor so it doesn't really matter that wis replaces dex and monk wis feats are useless anyway
6. Having abundance of magic weapons (even cobolds) Perfect Self maybe done to 10/adamanite

no way Monk is OP, no weapon or shield, medium BAB, no real AC (compare it with Mithrail plate 8 + 3 + 4 bracers)
it is "hard to make" class with often hard to survive

[Thaelis]

The only thing I can comment on is the speed bonus. A +60% permanent non-dispellable speed increase is like taking the Dash feat twelve times.

Rangers had our +30% speed increase spell nerfed to 1/10th duration. Wizards had their permanent Haste nerfed to max. 2 rounds/level.

You don't know how good you've got it A-Train!

However! I don't see why monk's shouldn't get Wholeness of Body X/day. We Rangers get to use our 1/day magic arrows unlimited times (albeit nerfed versions and on a cooldown timer).