Shadow Dancer Suggestions

[Tanlaus]

I would argue at the very least, bring the timer in line with the monk’s. Hard to see how the same timer would be exploitable by a shadow dancer but not by a monk.

[qwertyh88]

I have no inputs on SD.


But one point regarding Monk & Ki Step.

Ki Step costs a feat to buy. It's not free. And also Ki- Step is a must for any Monk/Sacred Fist build to dodge dispels.
Otherwise the build doesn't work and by extension Sacred Fist would become a Nobody would use PRC.

[Tanlaus]

I have no inputs on SD.


But one point regarding Monk & Ki Step.

Ki Step costs a feat to buy. It's not free. And also Ki- Step is a must for any Monk/Sacred Fist build to dodge dispels.
Otherwise the build doesn't work and by extension Sacred Fist would become a Nobody would use PRC.

True, but slightly apples to oranges. You take two feats and a dex requirement to qualify for Shadow Dancer... mobility being pretty much useless considering you have a tumble requirement as well... for a class that is 90% a 3 level dip, only would only be 1 were it not for server rules.

So going ten levels does net you a few nice things, but if you stack the classes up next to each other, Sacred Fist and Shadow Dancer there’s a reason you see lots of one and almost none of the other (outside of the HiPS dips).

My general point isn’t to take anything away from Sacred Fist Monks, but that if it’s determined that the ki step timer is long enough to mean it’s not exploitable in some way, it wouldn’t be completely out of line to ask that the shadow dancer’s capstone ability timer not be more than double in length.

[qwertyh88]

I have no inputs on SD.


But one point regarding Monk & Ki Step.

Ki Step costs a feat to buy. It's not free. And also Ki- Step is a must for any Monk/Sacred Fist build to dodge dispels.
Otherwise the build doesn't work and by extension Sacred Fist would become a Nobody would use PRC.

True, but slightly apples to oranges. You take two feats and a dex requirement to qualify for Shadow Dancer... mobility being pretty much useless considering you have a tumble requirement as well... for a class that is 90% a 3 level dip, only would only be 1 were it not for server rules.

So going ten levels does net you a few nice things, but if you stack the classes up next to each other, Sacred Fist and Shadow Dancer there’s a reason you see lots of one and almost none of the other (outside of the HiPS dips).

My general point isn’t to take anything away from Sacred Fist Monks, but that if it’s determined that the ki step timer is long enough to mean it’s not exploitable in some way, it wouldn’t be completely out of line to ask that the shadow dancer’s capstone ability timer not be more than double in length.

Again, I am not arguing for or against SD and shadow step improvements. Simply stating nerfing Monk's Ki step's would destroy Monk/SF builds and make SF an useless PRC.

And in terms of comparisons, I believe it's also comparing apples to oranges if we don't consider the full lvl 30 build. So for example, if we go a 17 SB/10Duelist/3 SD or a 12 Sb/8 Duelist/ 10 SD. There is essentially NO requirements for SD since Duelist requires those 2 feats as well.

However, with Monk's Ki-Step, you must spend 1 feat to buy it and it's only for Monks.

[chad878262]

didn't the divine power nerf already make sacred fist a useless PRC?

Seriously though, I would hardly say it would be useless. I imagine you are specifically speaking of the M20/C3/SF7 type of Sacred Fist rather than the more caster oriented C13/M6/SF7/H4, for example (since the caster oriented one is not at an overly high risk of dispels with CL29). Even when dispelled, M20/C3/SF7 has almost full Monk damage, +2 BAB vs. Pure Monk and is fully capable of reapplying buffs. It is no longer worth it (at all) to use Divine Power so plenty of room for such a sacred fist to have other spells memorized.

I'm not saying anything further about ki step, but stating that with a longer cooldown that sacred fists would no longer be viable is just not accurate. They already got hit hardest by the DP nerf so I wouldn't want to kick them while they are down, but getting dispelled in no way makes a C3/SF7 monk somehow no longer viable, it makes the slightly worse than a pure monk due to Spell Resistance and AC loss, but still quite survivable.

[qwertyh88]

didn't the divine power nerf already make sacred fist a useless PRC?

Seriously though, I would hardly say it would be useless. I imagine you are specifically speaking of the M20/C3/SF7 type of Sacred Fist rather than the more caster oriented C13/M6/SF7/H4, for example (since the caster oriented one is not at an overly high risk of dispels with CL29). Even when dispelled, M20/C3/SF7 has almost full Monk damage, +2 BAB vs. Pure Monk and is fully capable of reapplying buffs. It is no longer worth it (at all) to use Divine Power so plenty of room for such a sacred fist to have other spells memorized.

I'm not saying anything further about ki step, but stating that with a longer cooldown that sacred fists would no longer be viable is just not accurate. They already got hit hardest by the DP nerf so I wouldn't want to kick them while they are down, but getting dispelled in no way makes a C3/SF7 monk somehow no longer viable, it makes the slightly worse than a pure monk due to Spell Resistance and AC loss, but still quite survivable.

My definition of viable is probably different than your definition. Outside of RP world, why would we go fighter/buffer. In the traditional sense, it's to make the fighter fight better than a pure fighter but it only lasts when the buffs on active. And since we agree that M20/C3/SF7 dispelled is worse than than a pure monk due to Spell Resistance and AC loss. I would personal find no reason to play the build.

[chad878262]

And since we agree that M20/C3/SF7 dispelled is worse than than a pure monk due to Spell Resistance and AC loss. I would personal find no reason to play the build.

AC loss is actually inaccurate. Forgot that Sacred Fist gets +1 AC at level 1 and 5. They also get Sacred Flames so it really breaks down to you get more AB, ability to spike damage and Uncanny Dodge vs. Spell Resistance and 3d10 vs. 3d8 (~16.5 avg vs. ~13.5 avg.) damage. You may consider this not enough reason to play M20/C3/SF7 over M30 due to getting dispelled, but that doesn't mean there is no reason. Uncanny Dodge alone is a very nice feat for a monk which relies heavily on AC which Uncanny Dodge protects from losing when flanked.

[qwertyh88]

And since we agree that M20/C3/SF7 dispelled is worse than than a pure monk due to Spell Resistance and AC loss. I would personal find no reason to play the build.

AC loss is actually inaccurate. Forgot that Sacred Fist gets +1 AC at level 1 and 5. They also get Sacred Flames so it really breaks down to you get more AB, ability to spike damage and Uncanny Dodge vs. Spell Resistance and 3d10 vs. 3d8 (~16.5 avg vs. ~13.5 avg.) damage. You may consider this not enough reason to play M20/C3/SF7 over M30 due to getting dispelled, but that doesn't mean there is no reason. Uncanny Dodge alone is a very nice feat for a monk which relies heavily on AC which Uncanny Dodge protects from losing when flanked.

Should expected this from Chad:
By the #s!

So here goes just at class comparisons:

Monk 30( is actually Monk16/14 MoLD) vs 16monk/4MoLD/7SF/3Cleric

Round 1 AC & AB:
Monk 30 gets 4 EXTRA AC for - 2 lower AB:
Round 1 Winner: Monk 30

Round 2 SR Comparison:
10 Extra SR is a very noticeable difference
Round 2 Winner: Monk 30

Round 3 Damage:
Extra Damage from Fists versus a once per day spike from Sacred Fist
Round 3: DRAW!

Round 4 Extras:
Uncanny Dodge on SF
Round 4 Winner: SF!

So on a high level, I would agree that pure monk is slightly better. But is it accurate?

No..no..
FEATS TO THE RESCUE!

For SF build,
Chances are you are going to get Ki Step, Combat Casting, Extend Spell, Practiced Spellcaster, and the LOST Of 2 EPIC Feats.
Let's say you get back one useful FEAT back from taking a domain for Cleric.

That puts SF in the hole with a -5 FEAT deficit.

2 EPIC feats can be +2 Wisdom for +1 AC and + 1AB
1 normal feat for WF unarmed strike
2 normal feat for something else. Knock yourself out!

To summarize:
SF has no AB advantage over a pure monk and has 5 LOWER AC.
And I would argue that an unbuffed SF is significantly worse than a Pure monk. And is only marginally better with Buffs on.

And if you find uncanny dodge to be a must there is always that 27Monk/3 FoF build......

[chad878262]

decent analysis, but you assume that ki step wouldn't be taken by both monks and didn't factor in the feat from cleric domain so it's really about 4 feats. In addition your singular case of Monk of the Long Death is a very specific RP which you would not compare against a Sacred Fist Build since MotLD does *NOT* worship a specific deity so much as focus on a philosophy revering death itself. While I applaud the number crunching it is important to compare apples to apples as much as possible such as say looking at a Monk of a specific order that has sacred fists and comparing a sacred fist based on the available domains of deities accepted by the monk order vs. pure monk. I won't do so here because we are getting insanely far off topic and it really is not even the slightest bit a discussion topic to in any way nerf ki step at this time.

To reiterate what was said and bring us back to the shadow dancer discussion, it is quite fair to say that it would make sense in my opinion to reduce the cooldown of Shadow Step to be more in-line with Ki Step with a ~2 minute cooldown rather than the current ~5 minutes.

[qwertyh88]

decent analysis, but you assume that ki step wouldn't be taken by both monks and didn't factor in the feat from cleric domain so it's really about 4 feats. In addition your singular case of Monk of the Long Death is a very specific RP which you would not compare against a Sacred Fist Build since MotLD does *NOT* worship a specific deity so much as focus on a philosophy revering death itself. While I applaud the number crunching it is important to compare apples to apples as much as possible such as say looking at a Monk of a specific order that has sacred fists and comparing a sacred fist based on the available domains of deities accepted by the monk order vs. pure monk. I won't do so here because we are getting insanely far off topic and it really is not even the slightest bit a discussion topic to in any way nerf ki step at this time.

To reiterate what was said and bring us back to the shadow dancer discussion, it is quite fair to say that it would make sense in my opinion to reduce the cooldown of Shadow Step to be more in-line with Ki Step with a ~2 minute cooldown rather than the current ~5 minutes.

" Outside of RP world," --Purely mechanics here..and sure 4 feats --I give 2 extra feat buffer lol. but yes..my singular point is that I won't want to play a SF build if Ki step was nerfed with my reasons behind it.

But let's get back to Shadow Dancer...

[Blackman D]

[Tanlaus]

Better feisty conversation than none at all

[Blackbird]

I wanted to give this a little bump to see if any of these changes had been made and also to throw my hat in for bringing shadow jump in line mechanically with other classes that have similar abilities.

So let me lay out my case:

I know the primary argument against it is that in PnP, it functions differently, but we have mechanical limitations in NWN2 that do not allow implementation of the PnP functionality. While the intention here may have been a good one, I would argue it doesn't work to apply anything resembling the PnP limitations and makes for a lackluster capstone on a class that already gets shafted by the good old dip, flip, HiPS and forget.

I also know the secondary argument is that it's a gateway to epic dodge, so it's fine as is. Great. Lots of classes are gateways to later abilities and that has little to do with shadow jump (if anything).

As has been noted, there is no other class with a straight-line local teleport functionality that has a longer cooldown (or even really comes close to shadow dancer).

Cleric, Bard, Wizard, Sorcerer and Darkfire Disciple can hop all over at-will for 200 gp (pocket change for anyone who plays for even a little while) until they run out of uses.

Monk can hop every 2 minutes for the cost of a feat, indefinitely. They can at-will hop back-to-back after a much smaller cooldown until they run out of stunning strikes.

Feytouched can hop at will even faster than the monk. For the cost of a potential random teleport and a daze, they can do it instantly. Indefinitely.

Warlock, at the cost of an invocation, can hop every 30 seconds. Indefinitely.

Shadow dancer can do it too. Every 5 minutes. This cooldown doesn't even begin to approach anything else listed here.

Additionally, I would like to note that there are some rather striking differences in the PnP implementation that have been glossed over. The first is that there is no cooldown; it is purely a range limitation (unenforceable in NWN2) and one involving the presence of shadows (a typical "players get creative" problem). The second is that, in PnP, the shadow dancer gets to start jumping at 4th level. It is not a capstone ability for the class as it is here. The third is that by 10th level, in PnP, a shadow dancer can divide 160 ft. into as many at-will jumps as they want, so long as they are 10 feet per jump. To put that into perspective, a level 10 PnP shadow dancer could hop in 10-foot increments 16 times at-will before running out for the day.

Reducing the cooldown would not only place shadow jump more appropriately in-line mechanically with the rest of the listed classes, but it would also, in a rather devious twist, actually make the ability function more like its PnP implementation.

[Blackman D]

trust me, nothing has been glossed over and all of that has been taken into account considering thats how it got added in the first place, tho if you are trying to use it as a defense then i think you really underestimate how small 160ft really is, the normal range of a longbow or the range of darkvision is 120ft, in pnp its basically a near single use escape plan and thats about it

so if we were trying to make it like pnp you would get a single use out of it per rest

and that would suck, so i think you are probably misunderstanding when it comes to shadow jump -- but when it was first added the 5 min cd was one of those things that was done to make sure it wasnt going to be OP since teleporting was new, and it originally had to be use just like teleporting so it actually sucked because you had to mark your retreat spot before hand and you were still restricted to the same map

all these other teleports came after SD and SD came after the spell which originally had a cooldown of like 30-60 minutes

anyway, SD cooldown was a caution, idk why the other ones are so short tho 2 mins is fine, but do you really need to be jumping around that often? probably not

so as far as shadow jump goes its one of those where it could go down to 2 mins or everything else needs to go to 5 mins for some form of standardization

[Blackbird]

Well, I guess that's what I mean, ultimately. I think it should be reduced to 2 minutes given it's the capstone and not a 4th-level ability that gets "better" as you put more levels into the class as in PnP and the fact that the age of the 5-minute cooldown is ancient history. I have a strange feeling most people wouldn't be in favor of bumping the cooldowns on everything else that's out there now up.