Intrigue RP Recommendations (For everyone!)

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Truthiness
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Intrigue RP Recommendations (For everyone!)

Unread post by Truthiness »

Introduction


Hello! I've been contemplating whether to make this post for quite some time now, but given how many people seem to be getting involved with intrigue or information gathering and sharing RP these days, I thought it was a good time to make it. This is a list of suggestions and recommendations for intrigue RP, rather than being any sort of ruleset or gospel. The list primarily pertains to intrigue RP surrounding CvC situations, but has a lot of general stuff as well, pertaining to how various things affect intrigue RP on the server.


List


Avoiding Meta-info: Avoid learning meta-info to the best of your capabilities. This is sometimes unavoidable, however it's generally best not to seek it out. Don't OOCly ask about IC information your character wouldn't know, for instance.

Meta-info Sharing: Avoid sharing IC information OOCly to other people. While I can understand sharing or talking about your own character to other people OOCly (still best to avoid it), don't share IC information about other characters/plots, this is disrespectful towards whoever or whatever you're sharing information about. This has been an issue over the years, and I'm hearing more and more about people doing this. If you are doing this, stop, and if you are around people doing this, call them out on it (to them). Lastly, some people use the excuse of "everyone knows", which is almost never true, if you aren't completely sure someone OOCly knows something already, avoid discussing it with them.

Treating intrigue OOCly: I've noticed a fair amount of people treating intrigue RP like some OOC game. Whether through lying OOCly about IC stuff, going through OOC means to find out IC information, OOCly organizing the sharing of IC information, etc. This sort of behavior has to be avoided.

Character Knowledge: Most of the time, player knowledge and character knowledge are vastly different. Separating the two can be difficult, but is important to do when involved with intrigue. Whether it be knowledge of classes, guilds, deities, etc. Forgotten Realms is far more vast and complex than what the server can portray. In general, always be mindful what your PC actually knows.
  • For instance, most people are OOCly aware Shadow Adept is a class on the server, and are likely OOCly aware of the Shadow Weave being a thing, so there's a good chance they OOCly attribute "shadowy mage" and such to Sharrans. But given that the Shadow Weave is one of Shar's most highly kept secrets (only known to her followers as per server lore), and shadow adepts only account for one type of her worshippers (likely a more secretive one), it would be hard to attribute "shadowy mage" to Sharrans ICly, unless they were to reveal their faith themselves, or your PC had some major religious/arcane knowledge (even this is highly questionable).
  • Another note to keep in mind. There are maybe 200-300~ active characters on the server at any given time. The population of Baldur's Gate is around 100,000~. Which means that the PC population is about 0.2%-0.3% of the population in Baldur's Gate alone. Considering that the Sword Coast is much bigger than just Baldur's Gate, the PC population is almost nothing compared to actual population. This is often forgotten, and thus helps to provide a reason for the rarity of some things compared to what's seen in-game (tieflings, aasimar, etc). Thus it's something to keep in mind, the world is often more lively than what it appears to be in-game.
Metagaming: One of the worst things you can do in intrigue RP is metagaming, which is using information not gained from IC sources on your character. Not too much really needs to be said about it as it's been discussed and talked about countless number of times before, but it can be truly damning to RP, especially intrigue RP. Oftentimes once it happens, it's hard to get it under control or retcon it, that's if it can even be proven. So just do whatever you can to avoid doing it, and if you suspect it's happened in a situation, approach it cautiously and try to be sure it hasn't, or just avoid the situation and information entirely if you able to and unsure.

Shortcuts: I'm separating this from metagaming as this take is more subjective. Jumping to conclusions or taking shortcuts in intrigue RP is something that I see happen regularly on the server. This usually involves letting OOC knowledge/suspicion take part in characters coming to a conclusion while not having any strong evidence, with the more egregious examples being straight-up metagaming.
  • Oftentimes a player will RP their character "knowing" some secret about someone or something, when it's rare that their character actually has heard about or witnessed some strong evidence or proof of the supposed knowledge. This could be attributed to the character simply being prone to jumping to conclusions, yet this rarely happens when the player OOCly knows or suspects something is false. This "knowledge" then spreads as fact, when really it's just suspicion. You are then left with a bunch of characters "knowing" some secret without any strong evidence. This completely ignores the RP and information that might make someone doubt their suspicions, it also removes the potential investigative RP that could happen as a result.
  • My suggestion to avoid this is to allow your character to merely suspect something if they don't have any strong evidence, rather than having to "know" something (unless they are the type to jump to conclusions). In addition, if your character hears some super secretive information about someone or something, perhaps have them wonder (or ask) how someone managed to acquire such information, and if it's not some strong evidence, or they simply heard it from someone else, then it may just be mere suspicion or a rumor. Lastly, if your character is suspicious about something and wants to confirm it or find out more, investigative RP can be a lot of fun.
Information Spread: When questionable or straight-up metagamed information spreads through characters on the server, it makes it very difficult to retcon it, so making sure information is legit before acting on it or spreading it further is important, this is best done at the source. When metagamed information spreads along with legit information, it becomes nearly impossible to figure out which is which. Resulting in situations where nothing can be done about suspicions that information was metagamed, and whatever or whoever is being metagamed has to live with it. I imagine about half or more of the "known secrets" are like this.

"Winning": Winning in intrigue RP is rarely a thing, and it's best not to go into intrigue RP (or any RP) with the goal of "winning" against other players. Allowing your PC to not know something or be fooled, when you are aware of something OOCly, is probably one the best signs of a good intrigue RPer.

Infiltration: If your character is infiltrating another faction, I'm of the opinion that they should be actively contributing to that guild's RP. If they're just copying or reporting information back to whoeever and going to events (that other people organize), it's lazy and not adding much to the faction they're infiltrating. So if you ever have a character that is infiltrating a faction, try to contribute to their RP, it will make things more fun for all involved.

Cliques: In the past (and likely the present), discord/skype/etc groups have been involved in meta-info sharing, metagaming and all sorts of toxic behavior. When a clique has players of characters that are ICly involved with one another, one has to be very careful with it, not allowing it to become some place where these sorts of things happen. Discussions on IC matters/information need to happen IC, rather than OOCly. And while I do agree it's fun to play with your friends, be careful to keep OOC and IC separate, as friction or distrust between characters when appropiate is important.

Being Considerate: Finally and most importantly, being OOCly considerate in intrigue RP (all RP) can make things better for everyone involved. There are actual living human beings behind the screen of the other characters (crazy, I know), and thus it's important to keep them in mind when you're doing something that could affect their characters. If you're having your character jump to conclusions or metagame in some effort to "win" in RP, then it's probably best to think about how you would react if someone did the same to your character. Overall, try to be inclusive (when appropiate IC), avoid talking trash about other players or characters, try to make sure people are having fun, and lastly, be excellent to each other.


Conclusion


Two things to add to this post. First is that Discord servers and chat groups aren't always a bad thing, they are a great way to build communities and friendships, I've personally made many friends over the years through chatting on voice. They do however have to be handled responsibly and with care, with players capable of being mature and policing themselves. The second thing is that nobody is perfect in regards to handling intrigue RP (and RP in general), we've all made mistakes in the past, but we all can work on things we've faltered on. This isn't some post bashing about how people are handling intrigue RP (even if I have been irritated at times), but rather a way to help inform people and remind them to be mindful of such things, so the quality of intrigue RP on the server can improve.

Thank you for reading this through!
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Re: Intrigue RP Recommendations (For everyone!)

Unread post by JustAnotherGuy »

Very good stuff. Thank you for posting it.
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Re: Intrigue RP Recommendations (For everyone!)

Unread post by Trinket »

Thank you for posting this, great points all round. I have seen a lot of metagaming lately and it has put me off making any intrigue characters, which is unfortunate because I enjoy intrigue RP.
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Re: Intrigue RP Recommendations (For everyone!)

Unread post by Deathgrowl »

You are a treasure, Truthiness.
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Re: Intrigue RP Recommendations (For everyone!)

Unread post by Lux »

Intrigue is my favoured mode and I'm pretty sure God kills a kitten every time I hear meta OOC. :lol: Big kudos, great post all around.
Last edited by Lux on Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Intrigue RP Recommendations (For everyone!)

Unread post by Azroth »

Lux wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:27 pm I'm pretty sure God kills a kitten every time I hear meta OOC.
That's my take on when another calls it out 90% of the time. I take it with a pinch of salt :P

But yeah, anyhow it's just a lot of common sense, either way, you need to use. Not everyone uses it in the back and forth spy games.
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Re: Intrigue RP Recommendations (For everyone!)

Unread post by Louvaine »

This is awesome. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I think none of us are perfect, but it's very good to see posts like these, when community speaks up. We can definitely learn from each other.

I'm glad you decided to post this!
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Re: Intrigue RP Recommendations (For everyone!)

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

Thanks for posting this, it's brilliant.
It made me rethink things i do in game and discord and analyze if i go meta myself at certain times without understanding i went meta.

I hope we all go that way to make real intrigue, not getting sad about failed PC goals and have fun from every situation emerging.
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Re: Intrigue RP Recommendations (For everyone!)

Unread post by kleomenes »

Healthy intrigue RP is the hardest thing for an RP community to undertake and maintain. It takes work and trust, and that is on an individual level. This is good advice, all of it. The "Shortcuts" category is particularly good, as it highlights that good intrigue RP is not just about not metagaming, its also about playing respectfully with others. If you are having your character jump to conclusions in Intrigue RP, in a way thats going to significantly adversely affect another PC...think hard about it. Think very hard.
Truthiness wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:19 pm Treating intrigue OOCly: I've noticed a fair amount of people treating intrigue RP like some OOC game. Whether through lying OOCly about IC stuff, going through OOC means to find out IC information, OOCly organizing the sharing of IC information, etc. This sort of behavior has to be avoided.
This particular point is something we really need to focus on too. If you are doing this, you are not roleplaying. Its flat out not playing the game...cheating one my call it.

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Re: Intrigue RP Recommendations (For everyone!)

Unread post by Alexander Holgart »

Top quality post.

A good step toward a healthier approach in dealing with meta-information.

Sadly there are many things allowed that keep this very difficult, such as being allowed to have multiple characters in different factions that might even be opposed to each other. Or the possibility for a DM to be the leader or part of a guild while being able to see DM requests. That is a huge struggle in terms of maintaining things IC without crossing the OOC travel space.

Still, I loved this post and we should all take those points raised in mind.
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Re: Intrigue RP Recommendations (For everyone!)

Unread post by Snarfy »

Alexander Holgart wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:18 am Sadly there are many things allowed that keep this very difficult, such as being allowed to have multiple characters in different factions that might even be opposed to each other. Or the possibility for a DM to be the leader or part of a guild while being able to see DM requests.
There are a few ways to mitigate these instances, the first being for players, on an individual level, to only join a single guild regardless of how many characters they have. It's a very healthy habit to adopt I find, in that you can limit the amount of meta-info you are subjecting yourself to. Unfortunately, there are some players who will go to absurd lengths to glean info from as many guilds as they can, and in extreme cases will even roll up alt accounts and create characters for the sole purpose of learning meta-info/causing a ruckus with the players/factions they dislike OOC'ly. As kleomeness said, this is not roleplaying, it's cheating. Luckily, there are ways to discover if there is shadiness afoot in these instances(which I will not iterate here. Needless to say, if someone is trying to submarine you, take screenshots and report them to the DM's). Guilds can likewise protect themselves from this type of behavior by straight up asking players if they have characters in multiple factions, and then deciding if it's worth the risk based on their experiences with that player. Factions can also pick and choose when to allow a DM access to their forums, if they so desire.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to this...
kleomenes wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:50 am Healthy intrigue RP is the hardest thing for an RP community to undertake and maintain. It takes work and trust, and that is on an individual level.
And the only thing I would add to that is for players to not be too liberal with their trust, do not give it freely, it's far more healthy if it's earned, as some players are completely unworthy of it(sorry for being so blunt, but it needed to be said). Lastly, in the interest of protecting your own asses, players should also not be too forthcoming about their characters to others, be it OOC'ly about their builds, or even(especially) their IC motives. The less everyone ooc'ly knows about your character, the better the roleplay will be.
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Re: Intrigue RP Recommendations (For everyone!)

Unread post by Calen »

It's a nice post.

About winning: This is spot on, losing can be just as fun as winning. After all it is your PC that loses not you as a person.
Having flaws is good as it gives something to work with, getting fooled, losing a fight or just being outsmarted allows character growth.


About meta gaming: The only sort of meta gaming I'm on the fence about is the scry.
In a perfect world, I would not be visible on the scry, you wouldn't know that I logged on and everything happens spontaneously.
Some of my better RP moments on this server came to be because of it.

In reality me as a player has a limited amount of time, which means when I spend it on the server I would like to do something fun.
Thus, if I see +20 out of 30 people in BG, the rest on invisible I tend to have my PC move over unless I just want to be online in CK and read a book or do something else. Which begs the question of why I decided to log on in the first place.


With this type of meta gaming I see at as common sense.

A: Does my PC know about the tavern
B: If yes, I might have him visit there for a drink since people are there.
C: Of I stumble on some RP my PC isn't really a part of, I can have him icly move on.
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Re: Intrigue RP Recommendations (For everyone!)

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

To me, scrying the location on where is all the activity, is just logical. Sadly, server population is not 96+ on monday evening nowadays , thus, you can totally be in 40+ ppl server and see no one around, cause 2/3 of server are rping in Ulgoth's.
If one checks where the activity is and approaches with proper RP in, that "meta" is just QoL feature to let people gather.
That's why i don't like that people can hide from scry completely. I know, it has it's own purpose and many old players have their reasons to do so, but it hurts the ability of new players to easily find the RP and fun.
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Re: Intrigue RP Recommendations (For everyone!)

Unread post by Anrilor »

Truthiness wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:19 pm
Avoiding Meta-info: Avoid learning meta-info to the best of your capabilities. This is sometimes unavoidable, however it's generally best not to seek it out. Don't OOCly ask about IC information your character wouldn't know, for instance.

Meta-info Sharing: Avoid sharing IC information OOCly to other people. While I can understand sharing or talking about your own character to other people OOCly (still best to avoid it), don't share IC information about other characters/plots, this is disrespectful towards whoever or whatever you're sharing information about. This has been an issue over the years, and I'm hearing more and more about people doing this. If you are doing this, stop, and if you are around people doing this, call them out on it (to them). Lastly, some people use the excuse of "everyone knows", which is almost never true, if you aren't completely sure someone OOCly knows something already, avoid discussing it with them.

Treating intrigue OOCly: I've noticed a fair amount of people treating intrigue RP like some OOC game. Whether through lying OOCly about IC stuff, going through OOC means to find out IC information, OOCly organizing the sharing of IC information, etc. This sort of behavior has to be avoided.

Character Knowledge: Most of the time, player knowledge and character knowledge are vastly different. Separating the two can be difficult, but is important to do when involved with intrigue. Whether it be knowledge of classes, guilds, deities, etc. Forgotten Realms is far more vast and complex than what the server can portray. In general, always be mindful what your PC actually knows.

Metagaming: One of the worst things you can do in intrigue RP is metagaming, which is using information not gained from IC sources on your character. Not too much really needs to be said about it as it's been discussed and talked about countless number of times before, but it can be truly damning to RP, especially intrigue RP. Oftentimes once it happens, it's hard to get it under control or retcon it, that's if it can even be proven. So just do whatever you can to avoid doing it, and if you suspect it's happened in a situation, approach it cautiously and try to be sure it hasn't, or just avoid the situation and information entirely if you able to and unsure.

Shortcuts: I'm separating this from metagaming as this take is more subjective. Jumping to conclusions or taking shortcuts in intrigue RP is something that I see happen regularly on the server. This usually involves letting OOC knowledge/suspicion take part in characters coming to a conclusion while not having any strong evidence, with the more egregious examples being straight-up metagaming.
An easy way to fix this, IMO is to have a main single character, that you dedicate RP to. Not saying that you cannot have alts, but you should not be attempting to use those alts in any serious/intrigue RP. Your alts can be to try out new builds, do more loot grinding, play other classes that are fun mechanically, but you shouldn't be trying to use those alts to join other factions just to character hop into events, because your main was not invited into said event, or its a faction specific quest line and you want to be a part of it to 'be in the know.'

When people have many alts in many factions, its also hard to build a relationship/friendship with said character ICly, and with the player OOCly. When they just pop up for a major thing, and disappear again when the time comes to discuss what comes next, and are only around for events. it makes it hard to trust ICly and OOCly because you don't know that character/player outside of "oh its time to do something major, here x comes."

This also tends to lead to the next points below.
Information Spread: When questionable or straight-up metagamed information spreads through characters on the server, it makes it very difficult to retcon it, so making sure information is legit before acting on it or spreading it further is important, this is best done at the source. When metagamed information spreads along with legit information, it becomes nearly impossible to figure out which is which. Resulting in situations where nothing can be done about suspicions that information was metagamed, and whatever or whoever is being metagamed has to live with it. I imagine about half or more of the "known secrets" are like this.

Infiltration: If your character is infiltrating another faction, I'm of the opinion that they should be actively contributing to that guild's RP. If they're just copying or reporting information back to whoeever and going to events (that other people organize), it's lazy and not adding much to the faction they're infiltrating. So if you ever have a character that is infiltrating a faction, try to contribute to their RP, it will make things more fun for all involved.
So say as a guild leader, you have a guild specific event, you choose not to talk about it or just talk about it in your ranks, but someone who has an alt suddenly starts hinting at some aspect of the plot line that they would not know ICly about because it's not being discussed outside of the faction forum/faction discord, just because they want this other alt to seem like they know things (Malicious intent) or it could be a simple mistake, OOCly forgot that particular character wouldn't know it (Innocent mistake). But now the info is out there, no party can take it back or retcon the info. This can end up damaging, particularly to intrigue characters, and evil characters who want to remain hidden as part of an evil faction (sticking up for you team Shar). This is also damaging to the good guys in terms of conflict RP. Good Guy Group wants to put political pressure on Bad Guy Group, and come up with plans and start a DM quest line, and a DM picks it up and begins to work on it to start delivering pressure. Somone's alt in Good Guy Group also has a character in Bad Guy Group, but likes Bad Guy Group more, or wants more conflict to happen (Malicious), decides to leak the plans of Good Guy Group, or makes a short cut realization when Bad Guy Group catches some wind of something brewing and then develop their own plan against Good Guy Group. Now more conflict exists where there shouldn't have been because OOC information spread and OOC infiltration happened.

TLDR; Information spread and infiltration can happen OOCly as well, with both accidental and malicious intent to drive at something because a player may enjoy conflict RP and works and uses alts to drive it, when largely the opposing factions would not know of each other's plans.
Cliques: In the past (and likely the present), discord/skype/etc groups have been involved in meta-info sharing, metagaming and all sorts of toxic behavior. When a clique has players of characters that are ICly involved with one another, one has to be very careful with it, not allowing it to become some place where these sorts of things happen. Discussions on IC matters/information need to happen IC, rather than OOCly. And while I do agree it's fun to play with your friends, be careful to keep OOC and IC separate, as friction or distrust between characters when appropiate is important.

Being Considerate: Finally and most importantly, being OOCly considerate in intrigue RP (all RP) can make things better for everyone involved. There are actual living human beings behind the screen of the other characters (crazy, I know), and thus it's important to keep them in mind when you're doing something that could affect their characters. If you're having your character jump to conclusions or metagame in some effort to "win" in RP, then it's probably best to think about how you would react if someone did the same to your character. Overall, try to be inclusive (when appropiate IC), avoid talking trash about other players or characters, try to make sure people are having fun, and lastly, be excellent to each other.

"Winning": Winning in intrigue RP is rarely a thing, and it's best not to go into intrigue RP (or any RP) with the goal of "winning" against other players. Allowing your PC to not know something or be fooled, when you are aware of something OOCly, is probably one the best signs of a good intrigue RPer.
I hate the word 'Clique' as much as I hated the place they tend to exist the most at; High School, and as much as some people hate the word 'toxic.' However, when people use 'Cliques' to complain about a group of people, what they are usually complaining about is a group of people that have come to enjoy one another OOCly, and their Characters ICly and are involved in many levels of RP together, not just events, but social RP, friendship/relationship RP, intrigue RP, etc. When complaining about a group of people that enjoy each other's company both ICly and OOCly, those people tend to close ranks and shut out the people complaining, and then tend to formulate OOC resentment both ways. This leads to breaking on both sides the rule of 'Be Considerate.' I am not perfect in this, and have caught and been called out on it, and have done the same to others as well when I think they are going over the top. The trick to calling someone out on this behavior, is to do it respectfully but pointedly. Taking the time to actually detail out what they did, and why it was wrong, and offer solutions to what they should have done better. But these OOC resentments usually come from the desire to 'win.' and this being a game, there is an objective, and that is usually to come out on top, with whatever motivations you strive for your character.

There are also several groups of people on this server, and through my Character Alyssia, I have interacted with a fair bit of them, and I dare say nearly all of them. But my own personal policing of myself, is if I am in a discord VC and an event is going on that I am not a part of, and find myself with no IC way of getting myself involved, I will actively leave that VC to not allow myself to learn what happened, and if the players feel it's needed they can fill me in ICly, either though talking with my character, or sending her reports via PMs that summarize the event. I do make an active effort to not OOCly learn information, but even on that front I am not perfect.

I think what would help the culture of the server is to stop looking at it as a game, and look at it as a shared cooperative story telling experience with multiple points of view and differing motivations. There is no winning except for the experience of the stories we weave together as a community, and that is something we can all win at as we all enjoy it. We simply use the ruleset of NWN2, DnD3.5, and the shell of the virtual world to help enhance and give setting to the story we get to experience though our characters.

EDIT: also, its a scientific fact that if two different sized lab rats play together, if the smaller lab rat does not win at least 30% of the time, the smaller rat will not invite the larger rat to play anymore. Similar experiences can be noted in human games as well, so everyone can have fun if everyone fails 2/3 times and no one should feel they cannot succeed. If you feel the need to win more then 70% of the time or you are simply not having fun, you are probably a controlling person, and you should learn to relent and let others have their ways at times as well.
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Re: Intrigue RP Recommendations (For everyone!)

Unread post by Alexander Holgart »

Anrilor wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:11 am
EDIT: also, its a scientific fact that if two different sized lab rats play together, if the smaller lab rat does not win at least 30% of the time, the smaller rat will not invite the larger rat to play anymore. Similar experiences can be noted in human games as well, so everyone can have fun if everyone fails 2/3 times and no one should feel they cannot succeed. If you feel the need to win more then 70% of the time or you are simply not having fun, you are probably a controlling person, and you should learn to relent and let others have their ways at times as well.
While I generally agree with the whole post, I only quoted that segment because to me it summarizes the sentiment in a very effective manner.

Sharing means that we can't have the whole cake, we need to give a bit of cake to everyone.

Thank you Anrilor, I think what you said is important and relevant in this environment.
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