Hunter kit

[Flatted Fifth]

Revised Suggestion for clarity and ease if implementation. Give Archer style rangers ability to choose feats other than rapid shot and many shot (because they have them already), without removing those options for twf style rangers who want them, and beef up the kit to make it more worth the loss of spells

First if all please make Hunter Trapping stop breaking stealth.

Then, suggest editing kit as below:

1 Hunter Trapping
2 Fast Movement
3 Uncanny Dodge
4 Extra Favored Enemy I
5
6 Special Bonus Feat
7 Trap Finding
(wiki lists swift tracker here but you get that from ranger at this lvl anyway)
9 Extra Favored Enemy II
10 Special Bonus Feat
11
12 Improved Uncanny Dodge
13
14 Extra Favored Enemy III
15
16 Special Bonus Feat
17
18 Scent feat
19
20 Special Bonus Feat
21 - 29 Hunter Trapping gains additional 1d6 MAGIC damage at every odd kit level in addition to the piercing damage it gets now. So a pure ranger-hunter traps would do 30d6 piercing and 5d6 magic to one target at level 30.


Special Bonus Feat List:
Rapid Shot
Many Shot
Ranger twf
Ranger improved twf
Weapon Focus in choice of spear, shortspear, or any ranged weapon
Skill Focus Hide, MS, Disable Device, Set Trap, Spot, Listen, Search, or Survival
Alertness
Stealthy
Any of the hunter trapping added effect feats


Original below

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Suggest adding Trap Finding feat to hunter kit level 5 so they can see and recover traps with DC higher than 20. Also, suggest additional effects to higher level improvised traps like fireball, poison gas, etc, because right now I don't think the kit is worth losing spells for except at lower ranger levels. Also, have the Improvised trap stop breaking stealth. Right now a trap is pretty much once per combat against one creature.

ETA: Also, I don't think hunter should get rapid shot and many shot because those are the first 2 out of 4 feats they get anyway with the archery style: meaning that if someone has chosen two weap style they get an added little bit of archery from the kit. But if they had chosen archery style to get all 4 feats of that then what they get from hunter kit is redundant. Instead, what those two feats are should be determined by which ranger combat style you chose; you get rapid shot and many shot if you chose 2 weap style and you get two wepon fighting and improved two weapon fighting if you chose archery style but if you take archery style the kit gives you 2 additional favoured enemies instead of 2 feats you already have. Or possibly skill focus in hide and move silent. Or weapon focus in the ranged weapon of your choice and weapon specialization in the same weapon.

Actually, I think I like that last one best: if you chose melee ranger combat style the kit gives you rapid shot and many shot. If you chose archery style you already have those so the kit offers you your choice of ranged weapon focus and then specialization in the same weapon.

[mastajabba]

The archery feats make sense since all hunters use Ranged or Thrown weapons. spears, Javelins, slings, Bows ect ect …

I don’t think I know of any Hunter culture that went dual wield to take down any sort of game.

[Flatted Fifth]

The archery feats make sense since all hunters use Ranged or Thrown weapons. spears, Javelins, slings, Bows ect ect …

I don’t think I know of any Hunter culture that went dual wield to take down any sort of game.

Right, but from a mechanic standpoint if you take hunter kit with a lvl 21 ranger you either get 6 feats if you chose two weapon style or you get 4 feats if you chose archery style. Basically, if you want to play a real hunter and get all 4 archery feats you get screwed and THAT. doesn't make sense.

How about if you take 2 weapon style you get the 2 archery feats with the kit, but if you take archery style the kit gives you 2 additional favoured enemies instead of 2 feats you already have?

[Kitunenotsume]

The Hunter kit gives you true Multishot and Manyshot.

The default ranger version is actually not the same, and is disabled in any armor heavier than Light. There might also be other issues, like with shields - which would prove of issue to one-handed ranged weapons.


Regarding the traps, hunter has been pretty handy on my ranger so far, because unlike normal traps it casts instantly, so it can be used on-the-run or as a retreat - particularly with Barbed and Entangle traps to get CC while moving, and thus a fair bit of potency if you have the space and against single enemies. More bonus trap feats could be cool, but the guaranteed 2 round minimum Slow from Barbed traps is pretty much my main use (It also affects their attacks and AB, so it's a good debuff).

[Flatted Fifth]

The Hunter kit gives you true Multishot and Manyshot.

The default ranger version is actually not the same, and is disabled in any armor heavier than Light. There might also be other issues, like with shields - which would prove of issue to one-handed ranged weapons.

I know that. But so what? Do you want to make your hunter ranger wear full plate? Stalking through the wilds, hunting game, in heavy armor? Is that it? And no, equipping a shield does not disable the ranger style archery feats. You're still getting a couple useless feats if you take hunter kit and chose archery style ranger. Fact remains that the kit is more useful to the two weapon style ranger. It being more useful to one than the other is a balance and fairness issue.

Regarding the traps, hunter has been pretty handy on my ranger so far, because unlike normal traps it casts instantly, so it can be used on-the-run or as a retreat - particularly with Barbed and Entangle traps to get CC while moving, and thus a fair bit of potency if you have the space and against single enemies. More bonus trap feats could be cool, but the guaranteed 2 round minimum Slow from Barbed traps is pretty much my main use (It also affects their attacks and AB, so it's a good debuff).

I didn't say the traps were useless. I said that at higher lvls they're not worth the loss of spells.

[Kitunenotsume]

I know that. But so what? Do you want to make your hunter ranger wear full plate? Stalking through the wilds, hunting game, in heavy armor? Is that it?

I did, actually. No stealth, but a skirmisher that engages sentient targets and either leads them into minefields or snipes at them with relative impunity. So far it's been quite fun.
There wasn't any other classes or kits that really boosts traps otherwise. I think it has been observed that Hunter is much stronger for hybrid class characters than pure, however, and that is an observation I would support.

[Flatted Fifth]

I know that. But so what? Do you want to make your hunter ranger wear full plate? Stalking through the wilds, hunting game, in heavy armor? Is that it?

I did, actually. No stealth, but a skirmisher that engages sentient targets and either leads them into minefields or snipes at them with relative impunity. So far it's been quite fun.
There wasn't any other classes or kits that really boosts traps otherwise. I think it has been observed that Hunter is much stronger for hybrid class characters than pure, however, and that is an observation I would support.

It being useful for your one-off build doesn't change the fact that for most two-weapon style rangers the kit is more useful than it is for most archery style rangers, but we can 100% agree that the kit isn't a good trade off for the spells that pure or almost pure rangers will get at higher lvls. The kit as it is is good for my char with only 10 lvls of ranger, but only because I took two weap style. If I'd chosen archery style it'd be a bit rubbish as it is.

Also, I'd like to point out that my proposed changes to the kit would NOT affect your build. If you didn't take more than 11 levels of ranger and you chose the two weapon style, you WOULD STILL get the full versions of rapid shot and many shot. My proposal is to change it so that if you took archery style ranger you'd get weapon focus and specialization in the ranged weap of your choice instead.

[Kitunenotsume]

Also, I'd like to point out that my proposed changes to the kit would NOT affect your build. If you didn't take more than 11 levels of ranger and you chose the two weapon style, you WOULD STILL get the full versions of rapid shot and many shot. My proposal is to change it so that if you took archery style ranger you'd get weapon focus and specialization in the ranged weap of your choice instead.

I fully admit I have no skin-in-the-game on this particular point when it's actually doubly not going to affect my build, since I take all four of those feats anyway.
As far as my build was and would be concerned, Ranger Combat Style is irrelevant.

The apparent choice otherwise would be to remove both these bonus feats anyway, since it clearly stacks with Ranger Styles. I'd be disappointed due to the above, but it would accomplish the goal of making the choice of combat style relevant.


I've also noticed that the Hunter Kit actually encourages running lower-Wis rangers, since when you don't care about spell-casting it isn't a mandatory stat any more, and you can afford more points into anything else. This presumably allows for higher combat stats, which is a potent gain, but I don't specifically know which ranger spells that are lost are make-or-break.

The traps have infinite uses per day since it's on a cooldown, while I haven't identified if any Ranger spells have the same holding-power, or if the concern is regarding burst damage situations like bosses. Would you mind shining some light on examples of which spells contribute to the class's power otherwise?

I am also curious, if anyone knows: was the Hunter Kit based off some source, or was it just a matter of "this class needs more variation"?

[EasternCheesE]

When making my QC toons and testing some TWF rangers, i always wondered: If they go TWF path, why do they even get bonus feats not related to TWF?
Thus, i like the proposition with, maybe adding a list of bonus feats, so instead of rangers/hunters getting prescripted feats automatically, they can just choose what they want.

Say, one got manyshot as their general feat pick cause their "bonus" manyshot comes super late. Okay, then let them choose something else instead of that manyshot.

My question is: if someone specifically chose melee path for their ranger, why do they even get any ranged-related feats instead of melee feats in first place? It's not what their PC does, after all.

This surely is more related to possibility to implement it and complexity (i hope it's more a matter of decision than implementation difficulty).
My suggestion to this topic is:
1) I'd love to see more trap options and feats for all classes that can use it, including hunter. Hunters should totally be uncapped on trap disarming DC since they set traps, means, they know how that works etc (well, if they took some trap feats first). Maybe, boosting all the basic trap feats hunter takes with that "sense traps" addition? Then, people who take trap feats, get it, those who don't - don't.
2) Change the way bonus style feats work. Instead of just giving prescripted feat, make it a two lists for ranged/melee style ranger can pick feats from.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

I just thought about starting this thread and it was already started! Trap Finding is just a MUST on the hunter, it's a kit that literally focuses on the traps, and it's kind of silly that it can't recover its own traps. Just place Trap Finding on level 10 of the kit.

About archery feats, to me it's always been a neat feature. You choose TW path and get archery feats in addition, meaning that you can switch between the styles, it's incredibly cool, the only class that lets you properly combine these styles, keep it the way it is.

[Flatted Fifth]

I just thought about starting this thread and it was already started! Trap Finding is just a MUST on the hunter, it's a kit that literally focuses on the traps, and it's kind of silly that it can't recover its own traps. Just place Trap Finding on level 10 of the kit.

About archery feats, to me it's always been a neat feature. You choose TW path and get archery feats in addition, meaning that you can switch between the styles, it's incredibly cool, the only class that lets you properly combine these styles, keep it the way it is.

Clearly you don't understand. I said that IF you chose twf ranger you STILL GET THE ARCHERY FEATS IN ADDITION. It's only if you chose archery style ranger that you get something else instead of two feats you already have. I thought I was being clear.

if you chose melee ranger combat style the kit gives you rapid shot and many shot. If you chose archery style you already have those so the kit offers you your choice of ranged weapon focus and then specialization in the same weapon.

[Bobthehero]

If at all possible, I suggest the levels where you get the archery feat instead grant you the choice between that archery feat or the equivalent TWF feat. That way one can pick if their Hunter wants to be primarily ranged with a possibility of TWFing with some measure of success or the reverse. Doesn't prevent the class from doing a bit of both, and doesn't make the kit feel like a penalty when you take the ''wrong'' fighting style.

[Flatted Fifth]

If at all possible, I suggest the levels where you get the archery feat instead grant you the choice between that archery feat or the equivalent TWF feat. That way one can pick if their Hunter wants to be primarily ranged with a possibility of TWFing with some measure of success or the reverse. Doesn't prevent the class from doing a bit of both, and doesn't make the kit feel like a penalty when you take the ''wrong'' fighting style.

That was my original proposal but someone else pointed out that melee weapons other than spears aren't really a hunter thing and I agree. I'm not 100% opposed to it, though. I just think my revised kit changes (now in edited OP) make more sense for the kit.

[Kitunenotsume]

I read 'hunter' to be more than just a person who goes out and targets animals. Most melee weapons are intended for use against humanoid and sentient prey, and I see no reason why a melee weapon would be less appropriate than ranged options - particularly if their target is slowed or snared. Bounty-hunters, for example.

A Hunter is exactly what their namesake implies, they hunt, whether their prey be animal or elf, orc or dragon, they always find it, and they always kill or capture it.

[Flatted Fifth]

Twf and improved twf could be put on the Special Bonus Feat List in the edited OP. Mainly what I think should happen is

1: hunter trapping stop breaking stealth
2: trap finding feat
3: rapid shot and many shot not be the only options because archer style ranger has them already
4 beef up kit overall to be more worth the loss of spells