Theorycrafting: Shifter

[Kalgain]

Exactly the opposite, I am asking for reasons. I have no emotional connection to any of these builds, so I just play what I like and feel is of above-average strength.

I have done my calculation above, if you include feats and items the calculation results are the same. And the calculation does not include many other spells or the animal companion.

I would be really interested in all the things I have overlooked in my analysis.

[Mirage]

The "nerfs" did nothing to this PRC. It is still going to solo everything. With the self-concealment changes you now have an additional build alternative compared to the CON build.

And...you can look at my theorycrafting build that I posted earlier, and in that build I choose to max INT for mad Skills...and still, that Shifter PrC slays.

Yes, any shifter build will slay. Powerbuild it and it will slay literally everything on the server with just shop items

What build are you talking about here?

[mrm3ntalist]

What build are you talking about here?

doubt - /dout/ - noun - a feeling of uncertainty or lack of conviction.

Contrary to that, I am certain. Patience till this is realesed.

[Mirage]

Yea, so that's a weird thing to put in a reply. What powerbuild are you talking about? The one that will be able to solo the server with store items if powerbuilt correctly?

[YYA]

With the self-concealment changes you now have an additional build alternative compared to the CON build.

Sure, you can use Thief Acrobat PRC to acquire Improved Evasion, which opens up the Self-Concealment line of feats. Nevertheless, Self-Concealment still requires 27 Dexterity, and 30 skill point investment in both Hide and Tumble, which in turn means that the first feat can be taken at character level of 27. You get Epic feats at level 27 and 29, so a total of 20% Self-Concealment, therefore, how many Shifter levels are you going to ax to get more Self-Concealment or are you happy with just 20%?

Edit: Oh, saw the latest change thread. No Improved Evasion Needed.

[Terankar]

With the self-concealment changes you now have an additional build alternative compared to the CON build.

Sure, you can use Thief Acrobat PRC to acquire Improved Evasion, which opens up the Self-Concealment line of feats. Nevertheless, Self-Concealment still requires 27 Dexterity, and 30 skill point investment in both Hide and Tumble, which in turn means that the first feat can be taken at character level of 27. You get Epic feats at level 27 and 29, so a total of 20% Self-Concealment, therefore, how many Shifter levels are you going to ax to get more Self-Concealment or are you happy with just 20%?

Edit: Oh, saw the latest change thread. No Improved Evasion Needed.

Only needs 25 dex, 30 tumble/hide when next patch comes out.

[Kalgain]

For everyone who wants to use "shapechange"

there are two different types of creatures, some with weapons, some with creature weapons(unarmed).

The properties of the equipped weapon transfer to the shifted creature if it holds a melee weapon. If it does not hold a weapon it does not get bonuses from neither weapon nor gloves.

Shield enchantment AC transfers fully in "shapechange" and only half in wildshape

[Anchor]

For everyone who wants to use "shapechange"

there are two different types of creatures, some with weapons, some with creature weapons(unarmed).

The properties of the equipped weapon transfer to the shifted creature if it holds a melee weapon. If it does not hold a weapon it does not get bonuses from neither weapon nor gloves.

Shield enchantment AC transfers fully in "shapechange" and only half in wildshape

This is already listed on the wiki

[Steve]

I can't see if this was answered, but: will Epic Damage Reduction feat(s) stack with innate DR from the Shifter forms?

[YYA]

I can't see if this was answered, but: will Epic Damage Reduction feat(s) stack with innate DR from the Shifter forms?

From the other thread:

I have a few questions regarding what works for the Shifter in form:

1. Will feats work? Evasion? Uncanny Dodge? Armor Skin? Epic Prowess?
2. Will auras work? Blackguard? War Priest? Paladin? Orc War Drummer? Bard?
3. Will Fast Healing work?
4. Will Epic Damage Reduction work?
5. What is the maximum AC? Using the OP and the Druid Wildshape page, I see 10 + 4 (armor enchantment) + 4 (deflection) + 4 (natural) + 10 (Shifter level 20 bonus shield AC) + DEX (Shifter base form dexterity) + DEX (Shifter level 20 extra dexterity) + NAC (natural AC Shifter form). For the Owlbear, the AC is 10 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 10 + 1 + 5 + 8 = 46. Is this correct? This is without spell buffs (from others) or combat expertise.

1. yes
2. yes
3. yes
4. yes (but won't stack with innate DR of some shapes)
5. you can get couple of points more from feats and DEX Item which will stack with the shape

So, I guess it is a yes with Owlbear's DR, and no with everything else. Different types do not stack.

[Steve]

So, I guess it is a yes with Owlbear's DR, and no with everything else. Different types do not stack.

It would seem, actually, that it won't stack with Owlbear or the other 1-2 forms that have Untyped DR. Unless Matelener wishes to confirm this himself (considering that on the Wiki EDR specifically states it will ONLY stack with DD and Barbarian DR types).

But considering there are a few form without DR, like the Ogre Magi, Epic Damage Reduction would be useful.

[Steve]

To clarify for Everyone, Epic Damage Reduction will not stack with any DR, typed or Untyped, with the Shifter PrC. Only then useful with: Gelatinous Cube, Manticore, Wyvern.

However, considering that EDR is 3/- per Feat, and there being 3 feats total for up to 9/- DR, if you take 2/3 of these feats, you'll get equal to the maximum Shifter DR possible (that being (5 + SHIFTER_LVL/4)/- DR = 25/4 = 6 DR). Now, people like to go for Epic Fast Healing regen, but that is always a "per round" tick, where as DR is a "per hit" tick...and a PC will take many more hits per round than once per round. Essentially, DR is better (and of course, could you get BOTH, then hallelujah!).

So what is truly pertinent here is, if you plan on a low-level Shifter, you'd greatly benefit from some Epic Damage Reduction (as does any toon, really).

[mrm3ntalist]

To clarify for Everyone, Epic Damage Reduction will not stack with any DR, typed or Untyped, with the Shifter PrC. Only then useful with: Gelatinous Cube, Manticore, Wyvern.

However, considering that EDR is 3/- per Feat, and there being 3 feats total for up to 9/- DR, if you take 2/3 of these feats, you'll get equal to the maximum Shifter DR possible (that being (5 + SHIFTER_LVL/4)/- DR = 25/4 = 6 DR). Now, people like to go for Epic Fast Healing regen, but that is always a "per round" tick, where as DR is a "per hit" tick...and a PC will take many more hits per round than once per round. Essentially, DR is better (and of course, could you get BOTH, then hallelujah!).

So what is truly pertinent here is, if you plan on a low-level Shifter, you'd greatly benefit from some Epic Damage Reduction (as does any toon, really).

Why choose one over the other? Get both!

EDIT: You should also take into consideration the damage from spells. Dr does nothing to those and with no evasion there will be enough to consider Fast healig over dr

[Steve]

My build has evasion, and I’m choosing Expose Weakness over Epic Fast Healing.

[mrm3ntalist]

My build has evasion, and I’m choosing Expose Weakness over Epic Fast Healing.

Evasion is nice to have, but I think the damage from fighter (unarmed mastery and spec ) is more important. You can deal with the damage that you get from spells/traps for not having evasion with the regen and/or vamp regen. There is nothing you can do to add more damage to the build

And you know how much i like evasion