Should we lessen restrictions on the Underdark? [Poll]

[selhan]

And the next thing you know...surfacers will be kissing drows in the open farmlands.....((criticized comment for those that are too care bear))

"Simple plain solution in my opinion ..JUST RP!!!! ...Most of the population all into their builds and looting for rare magical items to compete with the others who have the rare magical items. I dont even want to get into power building ..most of yall got -9 or lower Charisma and rping yall pretty and handsome with proper literacy and charming. "

" I've gone to the UD, and I have rp'd with UD toons! And I had more then one reason too over the past ten years on this server. And each time I do, the mere though of being caught by Drows in the tunnels is fun stuff. Like it was pointed out earlier, UD got Soubar for their neutral grounds already. I see nothing wrong with that. The journey to and from however should remained treacherous cause THATS FUN!. Open UD races to Loot in Frost Castle or the Grey peaks?...oh I already see whats gonna happen there, *waits for balor to dispel wards then pew pew dead bodies all over after the smoke and dust settle*

"Ive bumped into people crossing few times, I rp the situation. And NO not always does the encounter result in drama. Alot of times its some good wholesome rp. But when someone wants to get froggy and act all billy bad boy it gets more annoying when you ready to pvp and billy bad boy decides ((I aint give consent )) . That situation alone is really irritating to some ppl. I say dont change nothing, Surfacers want to go to UD fine by all means go ahead just watch what you do you may get turned to stone, If UD wants to come to the surface fine by all means do so just watch what you do cause you might get snatched. SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE. WHY the complications?

Oh and forgot..just to make this clear ..long ago this server was REALLY fun with fewer restrictions ...WHY all the restrictions ..CAUSE people cant simply stick to current rules of the server and spend half the day qqing and complaining about this and that. All that does is take more things away and adds more restrictions. People really should be careful what they say. A simple sentence can change the game. People that been here long knows all too well.

[Endelyon]

I wonder if there were any iconic Forgotten Realms characters from the surface that ever kissed a drow.

Hidden: show

Good aligned adventurers treating individual drow with kindness is not uncommon and in fact matches the setting lore quite well. It's impossible to ignore the countless examples of that laid down by the Forgotten Realms novels and really, as far as I see it, this specific interaction is a non-issue. There are also some examples of drow that are able to reach the surface virtually any time and for any reason they need to (Jarlaxle comes to mind, though he's far from the only drow besides Drizzt that ever reached the surface, just probably the most iconic) and conversely examples of evil surfacers in lore who work (at times exclusively) with drow, so any of this stuff happening feels like pretty valid RP to me.

I think there are good questions raised about what impact the rule change will have for the server as it might indeed open up instances of PVP baiting or other forms of griefing, so it will have to be something that is monitored carefully if the change is made. Conversely, however, I also trust that the care will be given by the DMs to observe the situation and make sure it doesn't have an overall negative impact on our game world, and to make adjustments if it does.

[Azroth]

I wonder if there were any iconic Forgotten Realms characters from the surface that ever kissed a drow.

Hidden: show

Good aligned adventurers treating individual drow with kindness is not uncommon and in fact matches the setting lore quite well. It's impossible to ignore the countless examples of that laid down by the Forgotten Realms novels and really, as far as I see it, this specific interaction is a non-issue. There are also some examples of drow that are able to reach the surface virtually any time and for any reason they need to (Jarlaxle comes to mind, though he's far from the only drow besides Drizzt that ever reached the surface, just probably the most iconic) and conversely examples of evil surfacers in lore who work (at times exclusively) with drow, so any of this stuff happening feels like pretty valid RP to me.

I think there are good questions raised about what impact the rule change will have for the server as it might indeed open up instances of PVP baiting or other forms of griefing, so it will have to be something that is monitored carefully if the change is made. Conversely, however, I also trust that the care will be given by the DMs to observe the situation and make sure it doesn't have an overall negative impact on our game world, and to make adjustments if it does.

If we want to be technical, in lore it's often rare, while possible that Drow would ever get to the surface as accepted. I am not a fan of using Drizzit ever as he's a very and oddly unique Drow to walk the surface. Following other faiths not of his culture specficaly and far from what the typical Drow would be. And he's protected by plot armor.

Jarlaxle however has a faith tied in that fits the scheming ideas, and he's a prodigy, one of a kind and successful in his own way. The kind of Drow one hates but can't help but want to invite him to a party.

If you want another anomaly of Drow on the surface, look up Dambrath. It's ruled by a matriarchy of Drow or others of Drow descent mixed in with humans as a society and the ruler is a high priestess of Loviatar. And a large chunk of half-drow on the surface are tied into that culture.


There have also been other examples of Drow pulling strings with other elven kinds, successfully manipulating upon it's cities. Once more Vhaeraun followers at work.

[Rhifox]

There's also canonically drow merchants in Waterdeep.

[edmaster]

as well as in Calimport too..

[Ravial]

I wonder if there were any iconic Forgotten Realms characters from the surface that ever kissed a drow.

Elminster, obvs.

Also, for people that mentioned getting rid of Drow CR...

Let me present you something I've proposed way back! THE DROW VARIANT

[Planehopper]

There's also canonically drow merchants in Waterdeep.

Page 3, Who's Who in Waterdeep, Book II of Waterdeep Box Set, Set in 2nd Edition.



Skullport seems likely, and skullport is akin to Soubar.. but I don't agree that they are welcomed to Waterdeep in our timeline. Check the Campaign Box Set, Volo's Guide to Waterdeep, or this City of Splendors box set - all three set near our timeline.

[mrm3ntalist]

If for some, cannon lore is an obstacle that prevent them from allowing drow on the surface, we have gone over it a looong time ago. From Red Wizards in the city of BG, to a treaty between the Dukes and the Zhentarim, allowing zhentarim to walk freely in the streets of BG and harpers to safely visit Darkhold. From the easy strolls to Avernus to the odd status quo in the UD. In addition, our individual characters, whether they are paladins, druids, elves, dwarves etc, have been interacting with others in a way different that some would define as cannon. Cannon lore was not a problem in the past to do things in a different way.

Whatever decision is made, I will be happy and play around it. Hell, even if the team tell us that would should kiss every drow we see i would do it.

Dont hate the player, hate the game.

[Grendunor]

Roleplay over swordplay

I don't think KoS should be a thing but at the same time I don't think there should be an "opt out" of conflict for surfacers in the Middledark/underdark and vice versa.

The Rp reason for being on the other side should be a simple enough as "My character wanted to explore or, is investigating X"

With regards to the reason for this rule. I recall joining the server near to when it went in and it being a common practice for UD races with SR to look for comparatively weaker surface builds to PvP or antagonise. See the Coven of Darkness guild page for more on that subject.

If this change is to be loosened then I'd like to see both a Reblance of UD PvE content to be less punishing for leveling and a removal of the SR features on the Drow and Deep gnomes. (Maybe give the deep gnomes half their AC bonus back)

[YYA]

Hidden: show

TOLERANCE IS TREASON!

If this change is to be loosened then I'd like to see both a Reblance of UD PvE content to be less punishing for leveling and a removal of the SR features on the Drow and Deep gnomes.

And why must people always think of absolutes, well, sometimes an absolute solution is far easier to implement than a non-absolute. You no longer get a feat, easy-peazy-lemon-squeazy. But in my opinion there is a better alternative. If a Drow or a Deep Gnome rests in an exterior area, it temporarily removes the Spell Resistance until they rest within an interior area in order to regain it. Thus any Drow or Deep Gnome on the surface would have a mechanical reason to seek cover from the sun in order to retain their spell resistance, which could just as well keep them well within the proximity of the interiors of Soubar. All spellcasters have to rest to regain their spells, and even if Warriors, Rogues, and Warlocks can technically avoid the need to rest through healings kits and regeneration from items, even they will eventually face moments where they have no other choice but to rest upon the first opportuynity. A set of unfortunate dice rolls might wipe out your entire stack of healing kits, and if you cannot dash to the nearest merchant on your low HP, and if you cannot risk waiting through the slow tick of regenration -- it is simply a time to say goodbye to that Spell Resistance until you rest again in an interior area shielded from the sun.

Historically, one of the complaints about Drow roleplay on the surface was that the Drow just walk under the sun. Well, they kind of still have to, because of the rate of day and night cycle on this server. The night simply isn't long enough to really travel anywhere on foot.

And then it comes to matter of PvP, because that innate Spell Resistance can be a mechanical edge over other players -- and certainly was far more of it in the ancient days of this server. For example, the default NWN2 Quickened Bigby Six can be consired to be an 'auto-win' spell. You cast it, if it lands, you win. So drop a Mord or two to get rid of Mantles and follow it up with that Quickened Bigby Six. There were no wands beyond rare DM event rewards, the scroll situation was not all that better. So when a surface race arcanist dueled an underdark race arcanist, the underdark arcanist tended to have the upperhand as his Spell Resistance -- even when lowered -- could potentially block that quickened Bigby Six. Now, it was possible to play something like a Wizard 10/Red Wizard 10/Arcane Scholar 10 with the Practiced Spell Caster Bug to get caster level of 39 in Evocation -- which was the same as 43 with Greater Spell Penetration -- but not everyone wanted to be a Red Wizard, and they still do not. Thus any other arcanist would also have had to make use of the bug, and get Epic Spell Penetration, which means lower much spell DCs over all... for no other reason than to PvP Drows and Deep Gnomes on the surface. Situation was not really improved how Necromancy was considered to be a free School specialization, hence most wizards lacked access to Assay Resistance, even if it is not always the ideal solution to overcome Spell Resistance.

But today the situation is quite different, expansions added spells that ignore Spell Resistance, and even though their addition to the server was mostly opposed by Drow and Deep Gnome players those Orb spells are on the server today. Moreover, there exists a multitude of PRCs that increase caster levels beyond the use of a bug, and thus a dedicated surface Arcanist of today might be able to overcome the innate Spell Resistance without even having to try anything. You got Archamage, Blood Magus, Shadow Adept, Red Wizard, Hierophant, Feytouched, and probably some more in the future. Oh, and Divination is no longer automatically a forbidden school if you select Necromancy as your favoured school.

So yeah, if it is possible:
If you rest in an exterior, you loose innate Spell Resistance, and to regain you must rest in an interior.

[selhan]

Care bears ....

I dont care if someone on the surface kisses a drow or beds the damn thing. IF the UD pc manages to bring forth that kinda RP and RP reputation on the surface just make sure to back it up and let word spread that their are consider harmless or friendly or yada yada ...THEN FINE. JUST Do eet THROUGH RP!

But if they think they can simply come up to surface by OOC power escort and Troll the fact "Looky me a drow , I talking to my friends at the campfire" without spending the hard energy and time of rp getting the surface community to even accept them on the surface ...be ready to take a dirt nap if the wrong person sees you. Simple game , Most surfacers are not comfy to seeing drows on the surface so to risk it is to expected the hostile encounters. Hell even in PVE the first drows we come across is shooting arrows the moment they see us. Call it Training if you will If one drow today escorts me to the Gloria Inn telling me as a surfacer I am allowed too. Does that mean tomorrow I goin to come back down on my own and walk in the City like been living there for years?

If there's things cheaper down there in the UD or the UD has something I want, fine I..

1- take the risking going down there as far as I would dare.

2- find me someone who wont attempt to petrify me or something the moment they see me..

3- find a good enough escort that will ensure my safety.

4- or simply hire someone

Drow booty might be some good booty to some of yall but come on , can we simply keep the RP clean and pure? Not this Half Rp and half OOC in the cup? This game is freaking old, the reason most even come here to play it is because of the RP of its fantasy setting. Take that away and this server dies, cause there is far better games out there to play. We come here cause we are either fans, got history or even too damn attached, or some made some very good friends etc and what nots.

[Rhifox]

There's also canonically drow merchants in Waterdeep.

Page 3, Who's Who in Waterdeep, Book II of Waterdeep Box Set, Set in 2nd Edition.



Skullport seems likely, and skullport is akin to Soubar.. but I don't agree that they are welcomed to Waterdeep in our timeline. Check the Campaign Box Set, Volo's Guide to Waterdeep, or this City of Splendors box set - all three set near our timeline.

- Drow of the Underdark. 2nd edition ADnD, 1991, written by Ed Greenwood.


Just because the typical person would react with hostility to the typical drow, does not mean that exceptions do not exist. And player characters are often the exceptions.

[Rhifox]

From Red Wizards in the city of BG, to a treaty between the Dukes and the Zhentarim, allowing zhentarim to walk freely in the streets of BG and harpers to safely visit Darkhold.

The treaty does not allow Harpers in Darkhold. It is a treaty with the sovereign city-state of Baldur's Gate, it's not a treaty with the Harpers.

[zhazz]

The Rp reason for being on the other side should be a simple enough as "My character wanted to explore or, is investigating X"

What follow below is a rather lengthy discourse into one of the reasons I'm voting "no" to lessening restrictions for the Underdark/Surface interactions. It springs from the above "mindset", which is what I consider to be one of the major obstacles regarding Underdark/Surface interactions. It is not directed specifically at Grendunor, nor do I hold the "mindset" against them. They are simply the latest to give voice to it, and likely won't be the last.

Let it be known that I am a firm believer in established lore dictating the setting, and mindset and interactions of characters. As such the below is entirely based on such established lore, which is our only guideline until the BG staff make custom changes to the lore.

Some of it may be tough to read, due to drawing parallels to human history. Though I do not believe it violates any forum TOS.



TL;DR:
Established lore is the only source we have for interacting with the setting we're all playing in. BGTSCC takes place in Faerûn, in the Forgotten Realms. As such established lore regarding these place is what we have to draw upon to inform the choices made by our characters. It is the only way for new players to gain any knowledge of what they can expect, and in turn what is expected of them.

Restrictions to cross-travel exist because of that lore. Therefore to lessen those restrictions, we must be willing to change the lore too. And that is not something done lightly.




Here goes:


While I'm not one to dictate how other people play their characters, or what motivate those characters, I will voice my disagreeing with the above "mindset" regarding travel to "the other side". Undoubtedly some very few characters (from lore) will travel to the Underdark. And have in the past. The vast majority of these have been outcasts from society, power-hungry wizards, deranged individuals, and the criminally insane.

Even Artemis Entreri — probably the most evil, feared, and downright unpleasant human to ever set foot anywhere — actively avoids the place. Despite him having far more in common with drow than other people. At the top of his game he found himself an unwilling guest of Jarlaxle in Menzoberranzan's Bregan D'aerthe guild. At the top of his game. And he was utterly and properly coved. His entire self-image shattered because the drow were simply so much better than him. At everything. He didn't want to visit the Underdark before his encounter with Jarlaxle, and he certainly didn't want to return after they eventually parted ways.


The only way to properly convey just what the Underdark is, is to compare it to the political climate of Nazi Germany during the Second World War. Nazis were the Drow; other Germans were Underdark inhabitants; Jews were any and all surface elves; and the entirety of Europe were all the other races . . . There's absolutely no way that anyone, whom wasn't a Nazi, or already lived in Nazi Germany would one day wake up and say: "Gee. I think I'll take a stroll through Germany today, go to Berlin, and see the Brandenburg Gate".

That is the lore-wise level of danger that the Underdark represent to surfacers. Even defectors wishing to team up with drow will be more likely to be tortured to death before they can even make an offer, than to actually complete their desired goals.

And it works in reverse too.
Drow are taught from early childhood that the surface is teeming with evil sun elves, whom want nothing more than to kill and torture drow. That there is a great fireball in the sky at all times, which will strike any drow blind before burning them to death. The vast majority of surface raids conducted by drow are done so during adolescent training; and only during night time. Even the moon light is strong enough to cause drow discomfort the first time they go on such a raid as part of their training.
And why do they go there in the first place? To reinforce the horrors of the place, and cement the notion that the only way to defend against such evil creatures that can live in such a place, the drow themselves need to be ruthless, cruel, and always strive to be the biggest fattest spider there is.



We can argue that all our characters fall into the same category as the protagonists, heroes, and villains from the novels. However that simply doesn't match up in the end. Because if we are that powerful, then what's stopping any of us from usurping the Dukes or similar figures of power? Who can rightly stop us, if we are that powerful? Yet we've been repeatedly informed by the staff that these figures of power are much more powerful than us.
Which means regardless of us being level 30, with full epic gear, we will never be as powerful as Khelben Blackstaff, Elminster, Storm Silverhand, Gareth Dragonsbane, Artemis Entreri, Bruenor Battlehammer, Drizzt Do'Urden, Wulfgar, etc. They're out of our league. And they are the ones travelling to the Underdark. Not because they feel like it. But because no one else can, and sometimes it is absolutely necessary to do so. Even so none of them do it lightly.


That's not to say that our characters can't, or shouldn't travel to the Underdark. Or the other way around. But it shouldn't be something that happens because we wake up any given Saturday morning, and go: "I think I'll have a stroll to the other side." . . . No. If there's to be travel to the other side, then it requires planning, contingencies, careful thought, and with a very specific goal in mind; which once completed promptly compels us to scurry back to the safety of our own lands.
This is already present in the rules and restrictions for Surface/Underdark travel. OOC rules and restrictions that have been written because too many players in the past haven't adhered to established lore. And now there's a debate on loosening those rules and restrictions. Which is fine. But let's not forget that they are there because some players have a difficult time adhering to the lore, or are ignorant of it. They are not there to prevent PvP and griefing, though such may have been what made the rules and restrictions necessary in the first place.

[DaloLorn]

If this change is to be loosened then I'd like to see both a Reblance of UD PvE content to be less punishing for leveling and a removal of the SR features on the Drow and Deep gnomes.

And why must people always think of absolutes, well, sometimes an absolute solution is far easier to implement than a non-absolute. You no longer get a feat, easy-peazy-lemon-squeazy. But in my opinion there is a better alternative. If a Drow or a Deep Gnome rests in an exterior area, it temporarily removes the Spell Resistance until they rest within an interior area in order to regain it. Thus any Drow or Deep Gnome on the surface would have a mechanical reason to seek cover from the sun in order to retain their spell resistance, which could just as well keep them well within the proximity of the interiors of Soubar. All spellcasters have to rest to regain their spells, and even if Warriors, Rogues, and Warlocks can technically avoid the need to rest through healings kits and regeneration from items, even they will eventually face moments where they have no other choice but to rest upon the first opportuynity. A set of unfortunate dice rolls might wipe out your entire stack of healing kits, and if you cannot dash to the nearest merchant on your low HP, and if you cannot risk waiting through the slow tick of regenration -- it is simply a time to say goodbye to that Spell Resistance until you rest again in an interior area shielded from the sun.

Historically, one of the complaints about Drow roleplay on the surface was that the Drow just walk under the sun. Well, they kind of still have to, because of the rate of day and night cycle on this server. The night simply isn't long enough to really travel anywhere on foot.

Actually, the day-night cycle lasts several hours. Each IG hour is 15 minutes, which means it takes 3 RL hours to go from 6 AM to 6 PM... which, incidentally, means that the server's current reset cycle is timed to one IG day.

I wouldn't object to simply killing SR in the sun, and restoring it out of the sun. That being said, the current daylight/darkness penalty mechanics need to be looked at, since drow are penalized for walking outside at night just as if they were wandering in broad daylight.