Owl's Insight to P&P equivilent duration

[DaloLorn]

I would say "they clearly aren't feasible" in the current meta, but I'll concede that they're better at it than any other DC casters. Yeah.

I still think that DC druids having this spell, even in its current form, is a lot less harmful than monks and WIS rangers having it. The elixirs need to be nerfed hard, and the only compelling argument I've seen not to also turn it into a self-only spell has been Almarea's "at least it'd encourage people to bring support casters along instead of UMDing everything". (I'd still be in favor of a CL cap on casting Owl's Insight on other characters, though, otherwise we're just making it less available without really reducing its overpowered nature. Maybe CL16, for 8 WIS instead of the 7 WIS of a CL15 scroll? Or CL20 for 10 WIS, if 8 isn't good enough to justify asking a druid for buffs?)

That being said... I'm starting to warm up to the various proposed nerfs to the base spell. I still don't like them, or entirely agree that they're necessary at this point, but I don't feel it's a hill I want to die on, and we'd definitely need to consider one or more of them if we made any sweeping changes to the PvE or PvP metas further down the road. (You know, like making DC spells worth casting in either of those contexts again. I can pray, can't I? )

[Rhifox]

(I'd still be in favor of a CL cap on casting Owl's Insight on other characters, though, otherwise we're just making it less available without really reducing its overpowered nature. Maybe CL16, for 8 WIS instead of the 7 WIS of a CL15 scroll? Or CL20 for 10 WIS, if 8 isn't good enough to justify asking a druid for buffs?)

We need less exception development, not more. If you're constantly having to balance around something, then it's clear that that something is a problem.

It also increases the chances of needing to account for all these exceptions when developing future features.

[DaloLorn]

(I'd still be in favor of a CL cap on casting Owl's Insight on other characters, though, otherwise we're just making it less available without really reducing its overpowered nature. Maybe CL16, for 8 WIS instead of the 7 WIS of a CL15 scroll? Or CL20 for 10 WIS, if 8 isn't good enough to justify asking a druid for buffs?)

We need less exception development, not more. If you're constantly having to balance around something, then it's clear that that something is a problem.

It also increases the chances of needing to account for all these exceptions when developing future features.

I mean, my personal preference right now would be just to make it a self-only spell and put a CL cap on its elixirs. As long as DC spells remain functionally useless, I can think of no scenario where a druid/shaman can make themselves crazy powerful by casting that spell; at most, they can take a few monk levels and convert that extra WIS into a replacement for the AC of an epic wildshape, like a sort of druidic ICE on steroids (because of all the AB/damage you lose by staying in natural form), or build around becoming a trashier ranger with Zen Archery and a bunch of archery feats.

(Full disclosure, for transparency's sake:)

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I actually do the former with Amaetha. She's building into a CL30 caster/healing druidess on paper, but she only has 11 actual druid levels because Harper Hierophant with a monk dip. She doesn't even get treant form anymore! I don't know, maybe the Magical Beast shapes will finally let her claw back some measure of wildshaped competence... the only alternative is to ditch the monk levels and tone the Hierophant down enough to unlock Legendary Animal, but I'd been RPing her as close to a druid/monk as was legal even before the multiclassing restrictions were lifted. (On the other hand, losing the monk levels would lift some unpleasant deity/alignment restrictions, so it's not entirely without its disadvantages...)

That being said, Almarea preferred to let druids/shamans keep casting it on other people, which is where the current problem originated in the first place, so I proposed a compromise.

[EasternCheesE]

I honestly believe we need to review potions/scrolls/elixirs in general, not just balance owl's insight.
As a matter of a fact, master alchemist is mostly only good to pick because:
1) Steady demand on tortoise shell elixirs
2) Steady demand on Owl's insight elixirs
3) Steady demand on health potions (though, i'm not sure whether dedicated appraiser can buy them cheaper than master alchemist can make them".
Stuff like elixir of fire weapon or other ones are quite situational and i doubt they actually sell super well.

So, balancing those three would make a huge hit on elixir industry in first place and i'd love to see some substitutes to it.
Maybe, making elixir toxicity a thing so one can't stack them mindlessly and actually making a CL cap on most elixirs/potions way higher than it is now.
I believe, people would love to be able to use longer duration animal buffs or good CL mirror images or even good CL displacement as their options for bigger sum of moneyz. Currently, only longlasting elixirs (and very few short-term very powerful ones) are somewhat reasonable to use since short-term ones are just utterly useless for their price/effect/duration balance in many cases.

Speaking of technical part of adjusting effect/duration/CL (dispellability), we can configure any of those in any combination we wish with some CL code rewrites.
Meaning, one can actually make a CL 30 elixir with CL 25 effect (if it scales with CL) and CL 30 duration and so on. So we have quite a good ability around balancing elixirs/potions vs spells, but we need some elegant system that would:
Since the money is not really a problem for people who really are into using elixirs on regular basis (well, since many people have millions of gold and PvE is manageable within easy margins to be quite profitable).
1) Make sure consumables can't substitute a real CL 30 spellcaster. At least, something should be worse than real caster doing it, even if not much worse.
2) Make sure consumables don't give "drink and go with it for RL hours" stuff, at least, not for some really very powerful effects.
3) Make sure consumables are actually worth using. This is related to wand crafters, scrolls, potions. Very few people actually use 80% of spell effects available either due to easy dispellability or because spell effect is too low.
This is a really good example of the fact that most spells are just not really worth being on consumables at all (analysis itself is really good), but i believe, we really need to change the fact most stuff is just useless as consumable. Making more stuff more useful with variety but not as useful as real caster can give more options for Player-created consumables market.

I myself would actually love to see potions as similar-to-spell effects that can't be dispelled since they kinda mess with user's body instead of applying magic to them. They should provide somewhat lower bonuses than spells, but last for quite a while, accumulate toxicity to prevent overuse without consequences and be useful. Here's a good example of my vision in fact: Fun witcher video.

[Steve]

IMHO, where Master Alchemist went wrong in implementation is not adhering to the formula that Hierophant Inscribe Rune and Blood Magus Scarification.

If the idea was to create a fun PrC that could provide a weak crafting alternative in the interim of a REAL enchanting system, it went off the rails. There is and has never been a justification stated by MA could create elixirs to 30 and Scroll Scribing is limited to CL 15. Oh wait..."toxicity." Yet, toxicity was proven by yours truly to be utter bullshit.

Now back to your regular Sunday program....

[DaloLorn]

Dedicated appraisers can absolutely buy Heal potions (without toxicity) at a better price than alchemists can make them.

Dunno about potions, but elixirs are capped at CL 30. (With a few exceptions.)

Elixir toxicity is already a thing, but you suffer no ill effects from drinking one (or probably even two) elixirs at a time. Even then, the analysis Kitunenotsune performed in another thread indicates that elixir toxicity isn't too crippling.

High-CL mirror elixirs are mostly a waste of money, but not for the reason you specified. They're a waste because mirror images are an ablative ward, and CL doesn't boost them quite as much as Maximize metamagic. (Also, toxicity. Even if they're financially and tactically superior, which I doubt, you can't rely on them in elixir form. In fact, most elixirs are rendered ineffective by toxicity, or rendered superfluous by passive items, wands, potions, and arguably scrolls.)

Chad's analysis, while fairly accurate, should be taken with a grain of salt in the context of what you're saying. A lot of wands and scrolls are useless not because of their low CL, but because offensive spell items generally don't work unless it's a saveless spell. Wand of Fireball? Unless you're trying to punch through spell resistance, you don't care if it's CL15 or CL30 (not that a wand of fireball can be either...), because without the benefits conferred by your caster stat and spell foci, basically everything in the game will save against it.

Given the way things stack (or don't stack, as the case may be) in NWN2, an elixir with toxicity and a lesser effect will almost never be used over an item or proper spell, no matter how much greater the duration is, even if it's undispellable. Maybe it'll edge out a spell, if you expect to get dispelled a lot, but it'll be hard to sell it over an item with an identical or superior effect. (For instance, who'd drink an elixir of +2 STR when +2 STR items are a dime a dozen? I guess maybe an elixir of displacement or haste would be viable under your proposed system...)

[Kitunenotsume]

Given that this was a thread I posted, I feel I have a due responsibility to steer the thread back on track.
I had been planning on waiting until tomorrow, but I have seen how quickly other threads can devolve into the "complain about all the reasons elixirs are bad train", rather than address the primary topic at hand.
To alay concern that I am brushing it under the rug - I do agree that Elixirs are improperly implemented, and have been working on a revision proposal for the Master Alchemist class and elixir/toxicity system, but that is not this thread, and I will be posting it elsewhere once I have given it more polish.

It is evident that the community has a fairly strong kneejerk reaction that the nerf suggested is clearly to reduce the power of non-druids using the spell. However, there seems to be an equal reaction that "Druids don't make it OP" - the corollary to which implies that the spell is a balanced portion of Druid/Spirit Shaman balance parity.

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Making it 15 minutes wouldn't nerf the spell and bring it into balance. It would nullify the spell completely and make it nearly useless.

Both classes that get it, to my knowledge, really need it for certain builds. Combined with Zen Archery, it actually allows druids to do a tiny bit of damage while not shifted, opening up the class to more options. Some spirit shaman builds are the same way. Reducing it to 15 minutes would make these builds unviable, and thus reduce the build options available to these classes.

For my druid to do even the smallest amount of damage outside of shifting, he needs Owl's Insight. With Owl's Insight, his chance to land a blow is roughly equal to his chance to land a blow in dragon form, though his damage is still much, much less.

I won't deny that the spell is powerful. But this power manifests itself either as buffing the weakest druid/shaman archetypes to a vague semblance of competence, or as buffing solid non-druid/shaman builds to godhood. I'm pretty sure we're trying to deal with that latter part.

Just as Tortoise Shell, Owl's Insight only becomes imbalanced when it's elixired. The issue is not these spells, the issue is Master Alchemist class that, while not being imbalanced on its own, provides imbalanced features to other characters.

For my part, I do agree that it's an overwhelming buff to anything, except DC druids. It would be an overwhelming buff to DC druids, too, if not for these factors:

• While it certainly skews the odds against mundane NPCs in your favor, those mundane mobs are too numerous and too spread out for an offensive caster to be effective with anything less than an infinite supply of spells. Even if you're using save-or-die spells, Reserve feats might count, but even on a failed save, you're probably better off wildshaping and smacking the enemy down.
• Most bosses are immune - if not formally, then through inflated saves and Epic Resilience - to any DC spells you might want to cast.
• Unless caught completely unprepared, a lot of player characters will be about as hard to land a DC spell on as a boss. Spell mantles, protections from alignment, mind blanks, and various other immunity and save spells from elixirs, scrolls, wands and spellbooks alike are a staple of BG's PvP environment, and that's not accounting for the save boosts offered by rampant multiclassing, stacking save items, and that sort of thing.

My question in response to these arguments is "Why is a class considered reasonably balanced to rely on a nigh-permanent +12 stat boost?", and propose an examination of the negation:

• What is the issues with simply removing the spell entirely, and why are Druids (as it is consistently druids cited, not SS) so reliant on a buff that breaks the stat modifier in engine?

The spell is from a splatbook, rather than PHB, so there is no necessity to it's inclusion and has no equivalent anywhere else in the engine that we use. Unless we consider that the inclusion of a +12 Int, or +12 Cha buff be considered reasonable for parity - which from general discussion would seem positively misguided by most, then it is appropriate to see what happens when the one exception in the system is removed.

This seems like an equitable solution, with no introduction of exceptions, short of the following:
For the sake of argument, assume that all SS are rebated their 5th level spell if they took it, and existing elixirs are addressed somehow (either by refunding the owner or by saying "Tough cookies you knew it was OP", but in either way not the topic of discussion here). Given that the intent here is an exploratory discussion of overall consequences, the complexity of arranging RCRs and transition itself is tertiary to discussing the genuine long-term impact.
If druids actually need a +12 stat boost to be considered viable, then that is actually the underlying cause of the issue, and Owl's Insight is a slapdash patch that distracts from it and breaks the rest of the system when it comes to balance passes.

[Steve]

... a balanced portion of Druid/Spirit Shaman balance parity.

In regard to Spirit Shaman, WIS is used for Spell Level unlocking and # of spells, CHA for DC. If SS had a Eagle's Insight spell equivalent, you'd see it used to a builds mechanical benefit just the same.

Druid/SS spell list is also not something to write home about, when we're talking a DC caster, except the usual Storm of Vengeance.

[DaloLorn]

However, there seems to be an equal reaction that "Druids don't make it OP" - the corollary to which implies that the spell is a balanced portion of Druid/Spirit Shaman balance parity.

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Making it 15 minutes wouldn't nerf the spell and bring it into balance. It would nullify the spell completely and make it nearly useless.

Both classes that get it, to my knowledge, really need it for certain builds. Combined with Zen Archery, it actually allows druids to do a tiny bit of damage while not shifted, opening up the class to more options. Some spirit shaman builds are the same way. Reducing it to 15 minutes would make these builds unviable, and thus reduce the build options available to these classes.

For my druid to do even the smallest amount of damage outside of shifting, he needs Owl's Insight. With Owl's Insight, his chance to land a blow is roughly equal to his chance to land a blow in dragon form, though his damage is still much, much less.

I won't deny that the spell is powerful. But this power manifests itself either as buffing the weakest druid/shaman archetypes to a vague semblance of competence, or as buffing solid non-druid/shaman builds to godhood. I'm pretty sure we're trying to deal with that latter part.

Just as Tortoise Shell, Owl's Insight only becomes imbalanced when it's elixired. The issue is not these spells, the issue is Master Alchemist class that, while not being imbalanced on its own, provides imbalanced features to other characters.

For my part, I do agree that it's an overwhelming buff to anything, except DC druids. It would be an overwhelming buff to DC druids, too, if not for these factors:

• While it certainly skews the odds against mundane NPCs in your favor, those mundane mobs are too numerous and too spread out for an offensive caster to be effective with anything less than an infinite supply of spells. Even if you're using save-or-die spells, Reserve feats might count, but even on a failed save, you're probably better off wildshaping and smacking the enemy down.
• Most bosses are immune - if not formally, then through inflated saves and Epic Resilience - to any DC spells you might want to cast.
• Unless caught completely unprepared, a lot of player characters will be about as hard to land a DC spell on as a boss. Spell mantles, protections from alignment, mind blanks, and various other immunity and save spells from elixirs, scrolls, wands and spellbooks alike are a staple of BG's PvP environment, and that's not accounting for the save boosts offered by rampant multiclassing, stacking save items, and that sort of thing.

My question in response to these arguments is "Why is a class considered reasonably balanced to rely on a nigh-permanent +12 stat boost?", and propose an examination of the negation:

• What is the issues with simply removing the spell entirely, and why are Druids (as it is consistently druids cited, not SS) so reliant on a buff that breaks the stat modifier in engine?

It's more accurate, I think, to say that the spell doesn't noticeably make druids/shamans OP. This is because of two things:

• The nigh-uselessness of DC spells in most common gameplay contexts means that an extra +4 DC (translating to a +20% chance of the enemy rolling low enough to fail their save) is typically a curiosity. In the unlikely event that landing a DC spell means something to you, and you actually can land it through the enemy's saves and immunities? An extra +4 DC is basically just a "win more" button.
  
  This can be remedied by making DC spells worthwhile again. Until then, I don't think it matters whether the spell's impact on your DCs is on any location in the range [-50, +50]; too many things need to work out just right.
  
  (Aside from that point, I will leave discussions of spellbook utility to the others. )
• Druids are a top-tier class because of epic wildshapes. Any meaningful non-DC benefit to buffing your WIS out the wazoo will require you to compromise the effectiveness of those wildshapes, or it won't even work in wildshapes in the first place. Monk dips are both. Zen Archery or perception buffs are the latter.
  
  (Spirit Shamans... that's a more complicated story, and I cannot adequately answer why it's not considered a powerful buff to shaman/monks. Archer shamans I can understand, since druids and shamans aren't really meant to compete with rangers and fighters in ranged combat, but shaman monks might even be able to work without making too many compromises... Maybe because they're not a top-tier class to begin with? I dunno.)

TL;DR: Druids are probably cited because the spell opens up a number of half-decent druid builds whose gameplay loop doesn't amount to "I buff up, I wildshape, I smash everything."

[Tanlaus]

However, there seems to be an equal reaction that "Druids don't make it OP" - the corollary to which implies that the spell is a balanced portion of Druid/Spirit Shaman balance parity.

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Making it 15 minutes wouldn't nerf the spell and bring it into balance. It would nullify the spell completely and make it nearly useless.

Both classes that get it, to my knowledge, really need it for certain builds. Combined with Zen Archery, it actually allows druids to do a tiny bit of damage while not shifted, opening up the class to more options. Some spirit shaman builds are the same way. Reducing it to 15 minutes would make these builds unviable, and thus reduce the build options available to these classes.

For my druid to do even the smallest amount of damage outside of shifting, he needs Owl's Insight. With Owl's Insight, his chance to land a blow is roughly equal to his chance to land a blow in dragon form, though his damage is still much, much less.

I won't deny that the spell is powerful. But this power manifests itself either as buffing the weakest druid/shaman archetypes to a vague semblance of competence, or as buffing solid non-druid/shaman builds to godhood. I'm pretty sure we're trying to deal with that latter part.

Just as Tortoise Shell, Owl's Insight only becomes imbalanced when it's elixired. The issue is not these spells, the issue is Master Alchemist class that, while not being imbalanced on its own, provides imbalanced features to other characters.

For my part, I do agree that it's an overwhelming buff to anything, except DC druids. It would be an overwhelming buff to DC druids, too, if not for these factors:

• While it certainly skews the odds against mundane NPCs in your favor, those mundane mobs are too numerous and too spread out for an offensive caster to be effective with anything less than an infinite supply of spells. Even if you're using save-or-die spells, Reserve feats might count, but even on a failed save, you're probably better off wildshaping and smacking the enemy down.
• Most bosses are immune - if not formally, then through inflated saves and Epic Resilience - to any DC spells you might want to cast.
• Unless caught completely unprepared, a lot of player characters will be about as hard to land a DC spell on as a boss. Spell mantles, protections from alignment, mind blanks, and various other immunity and save spells from elixirs, scrolls, wands and spellbooks alike are a staple of BG's PvP environment, and that's not accounting for the save boosts offered by rampant multiclassing, stacking save items, and that sort of thing.

My question in response to these arguments is "Why is a class considered reasonably balanced to rely on a nigh-permanent +12 stat boost?", and propose an examination of the negation:

• What is the issues with simply removing the spell entirely, and why are Druids (as it is consistently druids cited, not SS) so reliant on a buff that breaks the stat modifier in engine?

It's more accurate, I think, to say that the spell doesn't noticeably make druids/shamans OP. This is because of two things:

• The nigh-uselessness of DC spells in most common gameplay contexts means that an extra +4 DC (translating to a +20% chance of the enemy rolling low enough to fail their save) is typically a curiosity. In the unlikely event that landing a DC spell means something to you, and you actually can land it through the enemy's saves and immunities? An extra +4 DC is basically just a "win more" button.
  
  This can be remedied by making DC spells worthwhile again. Until then, I don't think it matters whether the spell's impact on your DCs is on any location in the range [-50, +50]; too many things need to work out just right.
  
  (Aside from that point, I will leave discussions of spellbook utility to the others. )
• Druids are a top-tier class because of epic wildshapes. Any meaningful non-DC benefit to buffing your WIS out the wazoo will require you to compromise the effectiveness of those wildshapes, or it won't even work in wildshapes in the first place. Monk dips are both. Zen Archery or perception buffs are the latter.
  
  (Spirit Shamans... that's a more complicated story, and I cannot adequately answer why it's not considered a powerful buff to shaman/monks. Archer shamans I can understand, since druids and shamans aren't really meant to compete with rangers and fighters in ranged combat, but shaman monks might even be able to work without making too many compromises... Maybe because they're not a top-tier class to begin with? I dunno.)

TL;DR: Druids are probably cited because the spell opens up a number of half-decent druid builds whose gameplay loop doesn't amount to "I buff up, I wildshape, I smash everything."

It’s also a nice boost to spot and listen skills. Both for Druids and (mostly through elixirs) rangers as well. A huge boost if you’re not hitting the soft cap in wisdom.

And while I doubt it does much for Druid’s already sky high will saves it’s a huge boost for others there as well.

[DaloLorn]

Still only a +4 (if you're wearing a +4 WIS item, which you really ought to be doing as a druid), but I take your point. I think I'm too used to not seeing things by default, so it doesn't register for me.

Edit: IMO, the Will saves are just another example of why the spell should be limited to self-casting and low-CL elixirs.

[mrm3ntalist]

Do I remember correctly that one was not able to craft elixirs of Owls insight, Divine power etc in the past?

[DaloLorn]

Dunno. They absolutely can craft Owl's Insight now, though.

[cosmic ray]

Disclaimer: I play a druid.

As quite a few oomny ones have already said, the "problem" with this spell is not druids using it as intended, but these 30 CL elixirs that we all buy and use on all our characters, which were inexplicably greenlit in development years ago. Owl's insight hadn't been a problem before then.

With that in mind, if you absolutely must nerf something, nerf the elixir side of the spell, and not the legitimate druid-cast side.

With regards to general nerfs, it appears to me that BGtSCC is bracing itself to undergo yet another radical subversion of game systems (spells, abilities, items etc), this time to bring the module closer to PnP rules. I don't consider this an oomny move when carried out with such broad strokes, since, as the oomny ones also have rightly pointed out in this thread, the nature and pace and degree of DM intervention in PnP are a world apart from those same things in online NwN2, but, again, if it absolutely must be done, it should be accompanied by a nerfing of monster power levels, so that the super epic monsters with super saves and super resistances and immunities and super dispel/mords spam leave the stage.

[tharnok]

The spell is from a splatbook, rather than PHB

What is a splatbook?? if you meen a official D&D Forgotten Realm source book, then say so, since Owl's Insight is in Magic of Faerun, or you meen since it is in Spell Compendium a resource book, still offical D&D you call it a splatbook?

Or just a way to try sound knowlegdeable, as if you know it all?

just curious