The State of Leveling

[The Whistler]

In recent years there have been several changes that affected the way content is experienced on the server. There's also been a noticeable downward trend in the server's population, and while the latter started much earlier than the former, I still believe these changes to be a major contributor to it. The removal of level scaling, arbitrary reduction of resting spots, thinning of spawns and of course, the infamous retreat script have all served to make the leveling experience an absolute PITA. The redesign of Baldur's Gate has been the final nail in the coffin for surface characters, making questing there an even more inconvenient waste of time than it had already been.

I don't expect any retired players to come out of the woodwork to validate my theory, and I can only speak for myself when I say that the compounding effect these changes have had on leveling, is slowly killing my desire to progress and play my lower leveled characters.

[Lockonnow]

well now you and all know but that dosent stop me well it dose iam only here for some action couse i have ask and repent my self many time but you can RCR 100 one time but you use the Jeg server then it is more easy to figure out how to RCR or you can just play you chars so far as weak any chars in the RL novels of FR have weakness to so ,come on play it or sing a song and be happy make it you Regenerate you strange .
Toss a coin to you Minstrel o' Valley of Plenty o' Valley of Plenty ooh Toss a coin to you Minstrel o' Valley of Plenty ihhhh.

[gedweyignasia]

As someone who's been playing since 2013, it feels better than it used to be, not as easy as it was in the middle. RCR is much more forgiving on low levels instead of a straight 50% for all characters, which means you only have to level once on the lowest-level content. Which... if you RCR a lot because you retire your characters or update your builds, turns into a huge savings over time. New classes, new items, and removal of item-level restrictions, etc. have made players a lot more powerful without commensurate buffs to stuff like wyverns, xvarts, etc, so leveling is a lot safer than it used to be in most regards too. Dying definitely interrupts adventuring more than it used to, but on the whole I'd say things are still much easier than they were at the peak of our population. The unfortunate truth is that the game is 17 years old, NWNEE is soaking up a lot of the possible playerbase, and the main reason we lose players is due to interpersonal reasons, not PvE difficulty.

[Rain]

I agree but not for the reasons listed above. I do think that leveling is slowly dieing out. Alot of people who have or had a lvl 21+ character likely have a character they are compelled to play for RP reasons or a high level character they are compelled to play because it is the best version of a combat class they want. The more people that reach level 30 in BGTSCC the less people you are going to see running around leveling zones because lets be honest… With all the free RCR tokens… 100% RCR refunds… and XP refunds… who really wants to sit there for hours a day slapping the same mobs in the same three zones like you did for your main characters when you can just remake your lvl 30’s into your leveling concepts?

I think a big issue with the dieing player base is that a lot of servers (primarly NWNEE severs) offer more fast paced environments for affecting the world. When I say this i’m of course not talking shit on BG but: Trying to get anything done on BG feels like your trying to get ‘corporate’ approval for decisions that could or should be able to be done in within a few days. BG these days feels like less of an RP game and more of a waiting simulator for XP (due to the retreat system) for RP (due to waiting weeks if not months for RP decisions by staff) and general FUN because of the lack of player v player conflict to keep things exciting because DM’s arent around most of the time.

Back on subject… Leveling is boring because people who have reached end game don’t want to leave end game areas… Even when you find people to level with there is never any soul to the RP when meeting another character in a leveling spot “Oh are you hunting here? Great, let’s team up.” You kill some stuff and thats it. No real RP to heighten the fun of the adventure just kill mobs until someone leaves. Now add all of that towards a new player trying to get into the server… yeah…

[Tekill]

Make all players level 30 and give all players +3 starter gear.
Or at least make it super easy to level.

It was harder to level at a time. The purpose of the game was trying to even get a toon to 30 for a lot of us. Now it feels like levelling is more of an afterthought. Especially in terms of what the purpose of the server is all about.

Maybe it feels this way, due to most of us being verterans already. I have a few 30s, lots of gold and gear to equip any build.

What reason is there to be a level 1?

To answer that question we have to ask; what is the reason or purpose of the game itself?

The purpose of this game seems to be to make a PC and then to make something out of that character in a large open sandbox like world. To make something happen.

So what are we supposed to make happpen?

NWN2 is not that great of a video game. If I want to level I have 6 other games to play that are better to level in.

But BGTSCC is a fun D&D like game where most of us are at the same level already.

The purpose of the game has shifted from playing NWN2 the video game to being more inline with RPing in Baldurs Gate. Less about trying to get enough exp to get to 30 and more about the interest in joining in world building (or world destruction).

The real problem then is making sure the players have a focus on this new purpose. This is what will draw players and the lack of which is what is losing existing ones.

[Rain]

Make all players level 30 and give all players +3 starter gear.
Or at least make it super easy to level.

It was harder to level at a time. The purpose of the game was trying to even get a toon to 30 for a lot of us. Now it feels like levelling is more of an afterthought. Especially in terms of what the purpose of the server is all about.

Maybe it feels this way, due to most of us being verterans already. I have a few 30s, lots of gold and gear to equip any build.

What reason is there to be a level 1?

To anser that question we have to ask; what is the reason or purpose of the game itself?

The purpose of this game seems to be to make a PC and then to make something out of that character in a large open sandbox like world. To make something happen.

So what are we supposed to make happpen?

NWN2 is not that great of a video game. If I want to level I have 6 other games to play that are better to level in.

But BGTSCC is a fun D&D like game where most of us are at the same level already.

The purpose of the game has shifted from playing NWN2 the video game to being more inline with RPing in Baldurs Gate. Less trying to get enough exp to get to 30 and more effort in joining in world building (or world destruction).

The real problem then is making sure the players have a focus on this new purpose. This is what will draw players and the lack of which is what is losing existing ones.

Even though I doubt staff will agree with this, I agree wholeheartedly. BG now-a-days is more about the RP experiences then the leveling experiences. This is why most player stick to staying at level 30 because getting there the first time was already a slug of a time… no one really wants to do it a 2nd time. Plus even at that point players really just want to experience challenges that make PC’s have to team up. Thats why being lvl 30 is fun. There is nothing challenging in the leveling experience but the fun is in killing those big bosses that require you have few people to back you up. That’s why places like Avernus, The Shadow Plane and even the new Forgotten City map are so popular but are religated to epic level characters.

Again I doubt staff will agree but… I think reaching level 30 should be an Achievement and once you reach it you should not have to do it again if you don’t want to. Let the players have the option of deleting their old 30’s for new 30’s people already do that now anyway.

[Theodore01]

In recent years there have been several changes that affected the way content is experienced on the server. There's also been a noticeable downward trend in the server's population, and while the latter started much earlier than the former, I still believe these changes to be a major contributor to it. The removal of level scaling, arbitrary reduction of resting spots, thinning of spawns and of course, the infamous retreat script have all served to make the leveling experience an absolute PITA. The redesign of Baldur's Gate has been the final nail in the coffin for surface characters, making questing there an even more inconvenient waste of time than it had already been.

I don't expect any retired players to come out of the woodwork to validate my theory, and I can only speak for myself when I say that the compounding effect these changes have had on leveling, is slowly killing my desire to progress and play my lower leveled characters.

1000% agreed

I always enjoyed lv1~20 more than being epic and reaching lv. 30 is the end of any fun.
The upscaling encounters made all these lower areas interesting, while now they are just dull.
And yeah the bloated (but beautiful) BG became a pain in the ass, that's why there is no one there anymore.

[Steve]

Please don’t devalue the role-play potential that is baked into the progress from “weakling start-out” Level 1 to “eat my sword/fist/spell Balor bitch!” Level 30.

BGTSCC has always been about role-play, though it made efforts to cater to all styles of NWN2 gaming, though, you know, “stay in-character and RP the Character Sheet.”

The problem IS that the majority of active players are playing epic level toons, or just endgame 30 toons.

I have a couple of things to say on this:

1. Level 30 shouldn’t be endgame. It also shouldn’t be a players goal to reach, either…but XP is a constant on BGTSCC, and one gets there rather fast. So what does a PC do at lvl 30, except “hit doze Bosses on the regular” for phat lootz?!? Why are there not more options for a single player or group of players to pursue after reaching level 30 except for the Grind for Greater Gear Game?

For some reason, there is a disconnect between what players need, what players do for each other, what DMs need, and what DMs do for the playerbase.

There ARE these four efforts being made, but they are not coalescing well into an uber experience. THIS needs to be looked at, and fixed/put on a better path, or BGTSCC will die out sooner than never.

2. It is completely stupid, dumb, wrong and damaging to role-play that Level 30s DO NOT LOSE ANYTHING when they die. This issue creates a fudged up gaming mentality, and adds to the whack “Race to 30 so my toon is INVINCIBLE” paradigm. This needs to be changed, yesterday. It should be that when a level 30 dies, it goes down to 29 at least. If deleveling is an issue because of exploits, then some form of Stat Penalty that lasts through a X number of RL days. Creating a “No Risk All Reward” experience at lvl 30 just feeds the boredom. This should also apply to PvP deaths, so the results from CvC role-play that ends in battle, still has some challenge and risk.

3. There simply needs more to do at mechanical endgame. One could also say this about the general experience of Leveling/role-playing. Long-form storylines are almost completely absent these days. Campaigns to put both our IG and Forum storybuilding skills are practically nonexistent. And from what I can tell—correct me if I’m wrong—not well rewarded. Additions like getting a house or customization are always welcome, but also very easy to get. I think rewarding creativity and attention to detail from role-play at lvl 30 is the best way to keep the gaming tap flowing with good pressure. There are just far too many players that reach 30 and then quit, because have no idea what to do next that would be as rewarding as the mechanical gain. Reaching Level 2 should be meaningful. So for Level 3, and EVERY level after that. But honestly, the perception is that it is just a grind!

Maybe BG simply needs a Renown System? And one that just doesn’t work on OOC aspects (like it is currently on BGTSCC). And could be independent of what actual mechanical Level the PC is.

4. Players—and DMs—shouldn’t have to wait weeks to months for permission and/or responses/changes in or from IC requests. If players are asked to keep the environment alive because we outnumber DMs 10-to-1, then find a better way or get more relaxed about letting those Characters affect the environment. More agency. This might come off as a terrifying idea for Staff. But my opinion on it is, if you give players greater responsibility and agency, they generate a greater sense of participation and investment to see a positive generated experience for many if not all. Also, look at it this way: if we all are playing in a world where the Top Dog can just cast down Gods at whim, then let them back in, thus finger snaps solve everything, really, nothing that “goes wrong” cannot be fixed.

Thus, establish challenges to Characters(players) that have a meaningful effect on the environment. Maybe if that were the case from Day 1 Level 1, the mechanical aspect of this game wouldn’t continue to always be an issue!!

PS —the problem isn’t the BG city redesign—which is beautiful and complex—but that NOTHING OF INTEREST is going on there. Events? Markets? The mage duel probably had the most PCs in the Gate at one time since the redesign. This is both a DM and player issue, where both can make it more interesting.

[Rain]

Steve you made alot of good points. I won’t go into detail on everything I want to +1 but simply…

Renown system- If there were any way for lvl 30 players to gain influence, renown, fame whatever without the need of DM supervision 24/7 then that would help greatly make doing stuff as a 30 feel impactful. Idk make it so that towns give discounts or something to players who help the town? Slay some mobs near greennest… maybe they should like you a bit more especially if you’ve been slaying mobs there for years. As of today you could have a character who has been defending the roads of Soubar, Greennest or Gullykin for -Real Life- years and it only takes one DM to come in take over an NPC and be like “Who are you?”…

I do agree that DM’s should give more freedom to the players. Especially for decisions players make that affect other players. To many times has there been amazing PC events that were ruined because the hype died from staff taking a month to approve and stage something.

[selhan]

I still cant wrap my head on how a lot of you folks can go through the pain to level alts to 30. For me the mere though makes me wanna puke lol. I got a few and I mean a very rare few alts for rp reasons only and they stay within their current levels for such reasons. It would be far more enjoying to be able to take my level 30 and assist a lower level without killing their exp. I would see the enjoyment and the promotion of more rp to that. But thats just my opinion !

[Snarfy]

I stopped leveling alts right about the time the loot scaling went in(finding pocket lint in dungeons that were level appropriate for my characters did me in), and even went so far as to outright delete about 5 or 6 characters in their teens, so I haven't really experienced the leveling process in quite some time. That being said, I used to utilize questing as my primary source for XP, and, as mentioned in the OP, based on how time consuming it now is to do quest runs, I would likely end up grinding or "adventuring" as a means of leveling now(if I were so inclined to level ever again ).

I don't have any idea as to how to make quests more appealing, other than lumping the city quest NPC's and rewards in a tighter proximity, although I'm sure one might argue that would lead to less exploration of BG. But, to be fair, if the point of all this is about RP, I'm not sure that characters speed running through districts devoid of player activity just to squeeze out a few thousand XP is really going to generate anything in that regard. Basically: I got nothin'. Carry on!

[Aspect of Sorrow]

On leveling, the previous scaling affected more than just the mid-level springboard, but also how party interactivity works, bringing in the slog of the 26-30 leveling experience into the mids that could have probably been mitigated some by upping per kill caps to 75 in the epics. Those xvart, wyvern, Nash Hill, Uldoon parties regularly seen which helped newly RCR'd characters and class immature builds gain some respectable footing pre-epic is now demonstrably gone. Culling loopholes is a good thing, but it would've been a better experience if it came with a balanced boon. I don't think reversing the implementation is ideal at this point, but there is certainly more that can be done.

More than anything BG lacks content. We have updated vistas to look upon and little in the way for something for the character to do. The most fair and consistent DM is the module itself in its delivery but the focus from development has been on class features and less about the world the class is utilized in, threading in arbitrary impositions because they're easier to implement than it is to work in a proper game mechanic to respond to a concern or behavior. Adding more mechanically to the world, with DM vision approval, would make the game engaging and worthwhile to interact with, else we're staring at a canvas that doesn't feel lived in and little to be incentivized by.

[blazerules]

I made it to 30.

I'm never doing that again.

There is a good amount of RP potential in leveling and settling into your character imho. And it does help better understand and flesh out your character.

BUT while leveling from 1 to 21 feels well paced the grind from 21 to 30 is pain, unsatisfactory and doesn't really offer anything beyond being long. I understand the idea behind it. It shouldnt be easy to get to 30. You shouldnt be some veteran adventurer that fast.

But why? What does it add? Is it fun? Because most people I ask say nope. Or nope never doing that again. While some do say it's too fast which... I dont agree with. The balancing as it stands NOW for 2023 BGTSCC should be around how engaging it is. Which leveling from 21 to 30 is the opposite of. Could just wave away the speed of progression as an abstraction.

I agree in concept with the idea of yeah 30 is hard. But we aren't ICly 30 anyways so maybe it shouldn't be hard for no (good) reason. Maybe it worked better back when there were a ton of players but thats not the case anymore.

Regardless I do think the leveling experience can be fun. But if I'm frank the server isnt built around it. It just isnt. Its built like a bad MMO where to get to 30 you would realistically have to grind the same area 20+ times. Heck the same applies for most levels to some degree. I understand the limitation but it's just not fun. And it's not particularly engaging. Nor does it add anything to RP to raid dungeon#5 for the 34th time.

Its off putting to a good amount of new players for what gain exactly?

You can RP a dungeon dive the first time and its actually a ton of fun. Some degree the second. But eventually you hit a point of great. Here we go again. Time to not RP because it's reached absurdity to try and RP raiding the same place even if you rotate everything level appropriate AND RP a ton AND do quests.

Culling loopholes is a good thing, but it would've been a better experience if it came with a balanced boon.

Comes off as dealing with a symptom but not the cause. So underlying issue is there but more easily ignored.

I'd argue in your example that probably did more harm than good. Or wouldn't surprise me. People found a solution to something they didnt like with how badly things were designed, player solution was patched out but the problem itself wasnt addressed?

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Culling loopholes is a good thing, but it would've been a better experience if it came with a balanced boon.

Comes off as dealing with a symptom but not the cause. So underlying issue is there but more easily ignored.

I'd argue in your example that probably did more harm than good. Or wouldn't surprise me. People found a solution to something they didnt like with how badly things were designed, player solution was patched out but the problem itself wasnt addressed?

I'd argue in your example that probably did more harm than good.

It did but my point is that not enough was done, less about what was done. Gameplay loop balances require more work by comparison to adjusting minutiae of a class feature. Taking away in a gameplay loop usually has to offer something to compensate.

[blazerules]

Yeah.

Honestly a big part of such issues in which players do something not intended is to look into the why and try to address the issue from both ends. Otherwise problem remains.

I just wish leveling was at least fun or engaging not tedious and long. At that point it taking a bit isnt a problem. Its always sad hitting 21 because leveling is actually fun to that point.

I used to have alts but I never really bothered going higher than that because it was just kinda bad that only gets worse.