Suggestions/Feedback on Alchemy/Herbalism

[Aspect of Sorrow]

just now I saw someone literally camping it

[Green Monster]

just now I saw someone literally camping it

I noticed and reported that it can be reused and the dev team saw that and none said "It's a bug, don't do it", so I have to assume it's ok. Therefore if you're trying to imply hypocrisy you might want to turn your attention to everyone who noticed before I did and did NOT report it. Also, I'm not sure how attacking me is a productive use of this thread but you do you.

Also, something strange is going on with that particular character where all my other chars can do it but she just gets the "you find no more fruits" message but I haven't reported that yet because I'm not sure if it's a bug or if it's been my timing. Except for this specific character's failed attempts I have not attempted it with any character more than once every 12 or so hours. But please, be passive-aggressive at me if that brings you joy. Also, I'm not sure what your point is showing that I did it once each with two different characters, or indeed what you think you're getting at, but I won't pretend that I don't know that you're trying to be deliberately nasty.

[edit[ In fact I will admit that I did it once each today with THREE characters (I have 5 but one is UD and I just didnt bother with another). I also did the orc chief quest once each with 2 characters. So there! Do you have a comment about that as well?

[Fire Wolf]

Oh, btw, regarding the wait on incidental materials like water and the respawn times on herbs:

If the purpose is to limit the number of crafted items that can be made, then just do that. Suggest just limit the number any one person can do in a day. Like, have a cap on how many items each character can make and have that reset every 6 hours just like chests. When you reach the cap, further crafting attempts do nothing (no loss of materials but nothing crafted) and you get a server message that says "You're pretty worn out from all the work you've done. Perhaps you need to take a break for a bit. Crafting resets in 360 seconds."

Personally I would prefer the limit on harvesting over a limit on crafting.

I can justify in-character running out of plants to collect, but I don't think I could explain why my character would be randomly unable to make something he needs when he has all the materials, tools, and time to do so, but can't make that one bottle of medicine for someone because of an ooc limit putting a halt to it when it really shouldn't.

So I'd say I prefer the way the system works now, if some part needs to be limited.

Ashenie's explanation for what the harvesting limit represents seems pretty reasonable and has changed my mind about wanting unlimited herbs. Maybe some could be adjusted a little, but it seems okay as it is.

I would definitely feel frustrated with a crafting limit. We'd end up with the same amount of potions regardless, so I see no reason to change that part.

[Green Monster]

Oh, btw, regarding the wait on incidental materials like water and the respawn times on herbs:

If the purpose is to limit the number of crafted items that can be made, then just do that. Suggest just limit the number any one person can do in a day. Like, have a cap on how many items each character can make and have that reset every 6 hours just like chests. When you reach the cap, further crafting attempts do nothing (no loss of materials but nothing crafted) and you get a server message that says "You're pretty worn out from all the work you've done. Perhaps you need to take a break for a bit. Crafting resets in 360 seconds."

Personally I would prefer the limit on harvesting over a limit on crafting.

I can justify in-character running out of plants to collect, but I don't think I could explain why my character would be randomly unable to make something he needs when he has all the materials, tools, and time to do so, but can't make that one bottle of medicine for someone because of an ooc limit putting a halt to it when it really shouldn't.

So I'd say I prefer the way the system works now, if some part needs to be limited.

Ashenie's explanation for what the harvesting limit represents seems pretty reasonable and has changed my mind about wanting unlimited herbs. Maybe some could be adjusted a little, but it seems okay as it is.

I would definitely feel frustrated with a crafting limit. We'd end up with the same amount of potions regardless, so I see no reason to change that part.

Well, I get what you're saying, but my thought is that if material resets are per character like chests without limit on crafting then there might be too many items being made and drive sale prices through the floor. If they're not per person and the only limit is material availability, like now, then that leads to ill-feeling between players (see Aspect of Sorrow being pissy at me) when someone has no materials because someone else with more free time or luck grabs them all. If we had a limit on how much crafting you can do before mental exhaustion sets in while having per person resets, then that would avoid both problems.

[edit] OR have resets per character and eliminate incidentals like water and bottles BUT have each crafted tea or potion or whatever have a progress bar to slow things down a bit instead of waiting for materials. The idea of there being 5 people standing around the well waiting for it to reset and competing to see who clicks faster sounds awful.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Personally I would prefer the limit on harvesting over a limit on crafting.

I can justify in-character running out of plants to collect, but I don't think I could explain why my character would be randomly unable to make something he needs when he has all the materials, tools, and time to do so, but can't make that one bottle of medicine for someone because of an ooc limit putting a halt to it when it really shouldn't.

So I'd say I prefer the way the system works now, if some part needs to be limited.

Ashenie's explanation for what the harvesting limit represents seems pretty reasonable and has changed my mind about wanting unlimited herbs. Maybe some could be adjusted a little, but it seems okay as it is.

I would definitely feel frustrated with a crafting limit. We'd end up with the same amount of potions regardless, so I see no reason to change that part.

As the server doesn't have limits on running circles in Xvarts, I don't think harvesting which exerts less effort makes sense for a complete lock out. Diminishing returns possibly over a period of time, but not thoroughly halted, and leave crafting unhindered.

[ValerieJean]

Oh, btw, regarding the wait on incidental materials like water and the respawn times on herbs:

If the purpose is to limit the number of crafted items that can be made, then just do that. Suggest just limit the number any one person can do in a day. Like, have a cap on how many items each character can make and have that reset every 6 hours just like chests. When you reach the cap, further crafting attempts do nothing (no loss of materials but nothing crafted) and you get a server message that says "You're pretty worn out from all the work you've done. Perhaps you need to take a break for a bit. Crafting resets in 360 seconds."

Personally I would prefer the limit on harvesting over a limit on crafting.

I can justify in-character running out of plants to collect, but I don't think I could explain why my character would be randomly unable to make something he needs when he has all the materials, tools, and time to do so, but can't make that one bottle of medicine for someone because of an ooc limit putting a halt to it when it really shouldn't.

So I'd say I prefer the way the system works now, if some part needs to be limited.

Ashenie's explanation for what the harvesting limit represents seems pretty reasonable and has changed my mind about wanting unlimited herbs. Maybe some could be adjusted a little, but it seems okay as it is.

I would definitely feel frustrated with a crafting limit. We'd end up with the same amount of potions regardless, so I see no reason to change that part.

+1

[Aspect of Sorrow]

(see Aspect of Sorrow being pissy at me)

I imagine this would have more ground to stand on if I was actually there for the apples instead of observing you as I was passing through.

[Green Monster]

My main concern is that if materials reset per character there's too many of them. If they don't, then competition/ill-will arises AND casters with access to both invis and exp retreat have a clear advantage.

[edit] Either way, I think the need for water and bottles is irksome and unnecessary. Especially the water, which has fewer access nodes and takes a long time to run around to and is just so OOCly limited anyway. We're supposed to believe the fountain can only produce 1 bottle of water every 10 minutes? And that Halbazar Drin won't have running water in his lab? He's a mage, he probably has running water, running whiskey, running lemonade, running chocolate milk.....

[Fire Wolf]

I haven't been playing with the food related harvestables much, so I can't say for sure how those are working.

But for the herbalism ones, there's not really any competition between players to see who gets any. The limit on harvests is per person. Everyone can get their fill on herbs. The only thing that affects everyone is the several minute reset between harvests from each individual plant. It shouldn't cause any ill will unless someone refuses to stop clicking them after reaching their limit and doesn't give people a turn. But I think that would be getting into a different issue than the actual system if communication doesn't solve it.

[DaloLorn]

It shouldn't cause any ill will unless someone refuses to stop clicking them after reaching their limit and doesn't give people a turn.

This can't happen, AFAIK (though I should double-check the scripts to be absolutely sure). But what could happen, especially with low-DC, high-density spots like apple orchards, is someone cycling through on a bunch of alts each capable of reliably harvesting a resource. Migrating from a per-character cap to a per-player cap might be prudent, possibly accompanied by an increase in the cap.

[Hullack]

I don't understand the 'too many resources' concern. You have npc vendors that sell infinite potions. If players are able to craft them cheaper through effort and in character actions then that seems like the system working as intended.

[DaloLorn]

I don't understand the 'too many resources' concern. You have npc vendors that sell infinite potions. If players are able to craft them cheaper through effort and in character actions then that seems like the system working as intended.

You also have infinite loot, but there's limits on how quickly you can tap into that infinity. Why should this be any different?

There's a few overlapping concerns here, the solutions to which sometimes work against each other a little bit:

• Crafting should be preferable to buying items from vendors. This is currently achieved through a mixture of crafting-exclusive items (wands and Master Alchemist elixirs being the most potent examples), cheaper substitutes (if you can reliably harvest Juniper Berries for free, why buy potions of Lesser Restoration for 50-100gp?), alternative crafting costs (herbs instead of gold), and vendor scarcity (certain items only being available in limited quantities from vendors, but being obtainable elsewhere).
• Crafting should not be designed in such a way that a single person can supply the entire server. Sayushi is a fine example of the desired effect: She can't harvest all her ingredients herself, so she pays people to give her their harvests. (Alas, she is but a chef, and I've seen no indication that alchemists shop for herbs the way she shops for foodstuffs.) It stimulates both RP and the server economy alike. If a harvester's value were measured only in their ability to convert their harvest into finished goods, then would we still have harvesters? Or would we just have crafters who happen to also be their own harvesters? (Putting aside the possibility of crafting materials that can only be obtained by going on dangerous or otherwise difficult adventures. TBH, I'm a little disappointed at how few such materials seem to exist, and hope future crafting systems improve upon this aspect.)
• Related to the above, crafting should not be a race to the bottom. Virtually all wand crafters charge basically the same fees, because they have a fixed gold price, and obtaining bone wands is fairly trivial if you know how to do it. With herbs being literally free, and herb-based products being as good as free, there needs to be some sort of external pressure to allow harvesters and crafters to set their own prices instead of being forced to sell everything they make at a pittance.

[Ashenie]

Hello there,

Thank you for giving so much feedback and suggestions.

Like it was said many times, this system whether about herbs or cooking is not perfect. A lot of the issues brought here can also be the base reflections of future, wider, better, deeper systems for crafting.

The main intention here was the introduction of accurate vegetation and ressources for our corner of the Sword Coast, while trying to keep the fragile balance introduced by the previous systems. It's not perfect, but I hope it helped herbalists and cooks to deepen this roleplay aspect.

With this in mind, any proposition that would alter the system too much might be best considered later. Not because the ideas are bad or wrong, but because a complete shift of the system cannot take roots on one idea without considering all potential aspects impacted, as Dalo Lorn begun to point.

Also, while all ideas are great to consider, we can also be technically limited by the engine, or in my case, by a serious lack of skills to make my dream system come true. Given how much time it took to already reach the status we have today, I can only imagine a better and deeper system can take a lot of our time.

We are not professional designers. Maybe some of our ideas are really bad. And maybe they can be bettered. All I wish to say here is that we devote a lot of time and energy for this system, despite our real lives that can go crazy sometimes too.

All that said, many of the ideas here will be brought to discussion to either better this system, or think about the base of a deeper crafting system.

I hope that might complete some of the answers brought here and shed light on several matters too.

In any case, thank you really much for your care and interest so far.

As always, feel free to reach me for more details or information,

Cheers

Ashenie

[Lockonnow]

what about this thing Blood potion sould work this way you drink Blood potion and it sould Increased you magic while you drink a new potion so you magic wil last a bit longer

[Green Monster]

It shouldn't cause any ill will unless someone refuses to stop clicking them after reaching their limit and doesn't give people a turn.

This can't happen, AFAIK (though I should double-check the scripts to be absolutely sure). But what could happen, especially with low-DC, high-density spots like apple orchards, is someone cycling through on a bunch of alts each capable of reliably harvesting a resource. Migrating from a per-character cap to a per-player cap might be prudent, possibly accompanied by an increase in the cap.

I'd be in favor of a per-player cap. I have 1 mechanically bad character that could really use the XP and 2 that are in that early 20's level of being too weak for epic areas without powerful friends (I have none) and too powerful to get good xp from anything else, but I'd happily limit my visits to the orchard to just the weak one. In fact, I will from now on.