Bladesinger Improvements

[DaloLorn]

The first one would be fine with me. (Though I'm on the fence about full modifier versus half modifier, and feel like it should probably be half modifier if you're allowed to use CHA for it. 20 modified INT is really not hard to reach even for a sorcerer, IMO, unless you're fine with having literally no skills.)

The second is physically impossible (we can't conditionally add AB bonuses that circumvent the +20 cap, and we can barely add them at all!), but I'm pretty sure I'd be laughed out of the subforum if I tried seriously suggesting it staffside, even if it were subject to the cap. Paired with Combat Insight, it would basically allow a wizard to use INT as STR for all offensive purposes, plus get AB equal to their STR (or DEX if finessing rapier) modifier.

The third is likewise unlikely to see the light of day, because it would easily confer the single greatest DC increase of any feat or class feature on the server.

I have no strong opinion on the fourth.

[Flights of Fantasy]

Two and three are based on the meta as it was explained to me by other players. Apparently to be an effective spell caster against any of the mobs in Epic areas, you have to aim to get your spellcasting attribute to 30 or higher. The same apparently goes for melee depending on your BaB. This results in having to min/max and choosing between being an effective caster or fighter. You can either hit with melee and suck with attack spells or have good attack spells but flail your arms wildly in combat and render Song of Celerity nigh useless. And if you split evenly between martial & magic, then you're not good at either.

The idea was to allow a bladesinger that focuses on spellcasting to be able to land melee attacks albeit with lower damage ruled, while one that focuses on martial prowess can have effective attack spells so long as they're using Song of Celerity.

Going back to one, making it easier is the point since the only way to get the full 5 AC currently requires a modified Int score of 30. That is really hard to achieve for a Sorcerer when you need to also put pount in Cha and Str/Dex. Granted, if Song of Celerity is adjusted to also use Cha, that alleviates the problem a little, but then it goes back to having to Min/Max your primary spell attribute.

[DaloLorn]

Lower damage? Combat Insight with Bladesinger Weapon Focus would literally let an INT Bladesinger use INT as if it were STR. 30+ INT would become the undisputed meta for Bladesingers, and doubly so if they dipped for Insightful Strike with a rapier.

A barebones Wiz/EK/BS/AM build could get 25 BAB + 10(ish) INT + 5 GMW + 4 Greater Heroism + 1 Haste (... presumably, though any AB buff will work) + 1 Epic Prowess AB, hitting the AB cap with a handful of basic buffs and getting 46 AB just like that. Add even a halfway decent STR or DEX score (ideally DEX with rapier finesse, for easier access to AC), and you're getting AB in the low 50s with 5-6 attacks per round while still casting CL31 buffs. As for damage, they'd be dealing either d8 or 2d6 base (Deadly Defense with a rapier works out to 2d6) + 5 GMW + 15 or 10 INT (+ let's say d6 energy) damage per hit as full casters, plus whatever they pulled off with their opening hits on Song of Celerity. Swapping Wiz6/AM4 for Wiz5/Swash5 would drop your caster level to a middling 24, but get you 27 BAB and another 10(ish) damage per hit; I've played martials who would turn green with envy (... if not for the fact that some of them were green to begin with...) at the thought of that kind of offensive potency, and a Deathsinger-ish wiz/swash/duelist/EK who would swap Duelist for Deathsinger without flinching if this went live. Trading 2d6 damage and ~5 AC for 10 AB and access to level 8/9 spells is an amazing deal.

Conversely, making Song of Celerity add your melee AB stat to spell DCs would allow you to squeeze at least 5 points of DC out of a Bladesinger versus any other spellcaster... though I suppose this advantage is somewhat mitigated by not being able to take Shadow Adept or Red Wizard levels, so I dunno, maybe it might not be as hilariously overpowered.

[Flights of Fantasy]

And only to spells that are cast via Song of Celerity. Regular spellcasting doesn't receive the benefit. So the spell has to be constantly imbued to the sword. (Which ideally will eventually become a toggle as previously suggested).

And I will admit that I didn't take Combat Insight into account. (It doesn't offer any benefits to Aska as she's a sorceress and the point spread is difficult enough already.) Perhaps add a restriction that it can't be used with Combat Insight, so the PC has to choose between higher damage roll or higher attack bonus.

[Ghost]

Been a minute since I tested bladesinger, but I don't think anything actually has changed with it? I found at the time at least that a fairly simple wizard/ek/bladesinger based on strength did very well indeed. I think I went with northlander hewing at the time, but with the change to power attack into one feat, that may now be a viable option. Defenses certainly wasn't an issue, even if I had lower intelligence than the bladesingers who focus on that. The sorc/wiz spell book is tremendously good for defenses on top of the fact that bladesingers get to wear armour without having to get still spell.

Last time this was discussed by staff, my analysis at least was that what bladesingers (and by extension, other gishes) lack, is potential for build variety while retaining 30 CL (or 29, as it happens to be for most of them). Some will argue this is a non-issue, I imagine, but I entirely disagree. It is a non-issue in some playstyles, but if you want to play out the archetype that bladesinger represents, CL matters.

I have offered a few suggestions to address this, the simplest of which is an "epic practiced spellcaster". An epic feat requiring practiced spellcaster and level 9 spells in the spellcaster class you're picking it for, and it provides the same as normal practiced spellcaster, but stacks on top of it: +4 caster level, up to 30.

For gishes (and others, to be fair), this would give a full 8 levels of non-progression to play around with. I admit I have some minor concerns about how this would affect some cleric and FS builds, but I haven't done the numbers on those yet.

[Steve]

For gishes (and others, to be fair), this would give a full 8 levels of non-progression to play around with. I admit I have some minor concerns about how this would affect some cleric and FS builds, but I haven't done the numbers on those yet.

Make it more taxing and allow Spell Power feats outside Hierophant and Archmage (with your same suggested reqs].

[Ravial]

Song of Celerity was made as it is right now by Valefort, because it was the best he could do to replicate casting a spell “at the same time as fighting”. He had no idea there have been other prcs/base classes that do just that- imbue weapon with a spell.

As for any changes- I strongly agree with Ghost. I mean, I’m the guy that proposed giving gishes more CL flexibility, because they’re in a godawful place, right now.

From the OP’s changes, I guess I’d only really support the CHA to AC. Any proposals to make Song of Celerity more interesting are welcome, imo. I can’t come up with something that can be easily coded and be a signature feature along with the armour capstone.

[DaloLorn]

Easiest SoC improvement I can think of is a way to charge it up with multiple castings of the same spell (including identical metamagics) so it can fire several rounds in a row. Or there was that thing BloodRiot and I were looking into, with briefly granting Auto-Quicken 0-9 after a round of melee attacks so you could quicken a few spells before going back into melee...

[Flights of Fantasy]

I'd be all for an epic practiced spell casting feat. That would be great for a lot of class combinations. And sacrificing an epic feat slot to get it seems a fair trade. I made a lot of suggestions for SoC when I first started the thread that are being echoed. I don't see a problem with adding metamagics and normal practiced spell caster to their bonus feat options. It is supposed to be a arcane/melee oriented class.

Edit: And getting the full attribute AC bonus up to half class level, maxing out at 5. If you want to limit the AC bonus to 5, that's fine, but requiring 30 Intelligence (or Charisma) to do so is pigeonholing the PrC.