Pale master Summon greater undead question

[Corax]

Sure.
But if the change is intended because the summon is deemed too powerful, let me just say that this change isn't the right change.

The right change would be to have different summons at CL lower than 25 / at CL 26+, and a 1mn duration/CL

Edit.: This also applies to Gate and Summon Monster VII-VIII-IX.

This would be the case, IF arcanists were supposed to grind armies of mobs at lvl 26+. But I don't believe they are, at all. That's why we have the best devices to avoid fights altogether (Invisibility, Ethereal Jaunt, Teleport among others). We fight what we have to, we avoid the rest.

If you need to defend a keep by yourself, you can. You funnel all the enemies at the gate, then you cast everything you have, and leave a crater.

If you have a duel in your hands, you have the best tools to win it, and in fact, arcanists are the best pvpers around. They are way more difficult to steer than a melee gish or a WM/FB, but they are better if you play perfectly.

If, however, you want to fight endlessly, well, you can't be as effective as other classes. It's a trade-off, Laenor. If you want to mow a lawn of enemies over and over again, you picked the wrong class. When that becomes possible (like with CGU that never ends), you know there's a big balance issue. PM Summon is already strong, but of course you need to invest very much to get to that...VERY much (namely, CL and DC, and a very, very specific RP). That's balanced.

[Laenor]

Sure.
But if the change is intended because the summon is deemed too powerful, let me just say that this change isn't the right change.

The right change would be to have different summons at CL lower than 25 / at CL 26+, and a 1mn duration/CL

Edit.: This also applies to Gate and Summon Monster VII-VIII-IX.

This would be the case, IF arcanists were supposed to grind armies of mobs at lvl 26+. But I don't believe they are, at all. That's why we have the best devices to avoid fights altogether (Invisibility, Ethereal Jaunt, Teleport among others). We fight what we have to, we avoid the rest.

If you need to defend a keep by yourself, you can. You funnel all the enemies at the gate, then you cast everything you have, and leave a crater.

If you have a duel in your hands, you have the best tools to win it, and in fact, arcanists are the best pvpers around. They are way more difficult to steer than a melee gish or a WM/FB, but they are better if you play perfectly.

If, however, you want to fight endlessly, well, you can't be as effective as other classes. It's a trade-off, Laenor. If you want to mow a lawn of enemies over and over again, you picked the wrong class. When that becomes possible (like with CGU that never ends), you know there's a big balance issue. PM Summon is already strong, but of course you need to invest very much to get to that...VERY much (namely, CL and DC, and a very, very specific RP). That's balanced.

There's a few misconceptions there.
A wizard can't kill stuff over and over again.

Every 20 minutes, even with a CGU that lasts 30 minutes, the first thing I'm looking for is a place to rest. And It's not like I'm chain casting spells for 20 minutes. That's just by using spells to support my summons.

Rest. Every. Damn. 20. Minutes.

That's what's happening at level 30, with a 34 unbuffed int, +4 level 1-3 spells, +2 level 4 spells and +1 level 5 spell from items. And it's not like I can kill at the same rate as a melee or divine character, even with a CGU at my sides either.

CGU might be able to lawn CR 15 ennemies, but against real ennemies (Frost giants, fire giants, Nagas, Vault of the dead and so on) you'll have a hard time "mowing" without helping and supporting your summon with damaging spells.

Edit.: And that's only if you get the vampire warrior.
The vampire warlock is clearly far away from beeing a landmower (But it's got some nice spells, that is true)

[Corax]

A wizard is not supposed to be able to do any of that, so it looks like all's in order. Resting every 20 minutes? Well, in 20 minutes, a strong melee cleric, for instance, will be out of Divine Power uses, so he's got to rest too. A WM/FB can fight at will, but these enemies hit back, so he'll prolly have to check his stock of potions as well.

Resting every 20/25 minutes (more for a wizard like mine, but for a typical one this is accurate) is normal for a strong character. In 20/25 minutes, you DO kill stuff over and over again. There are precious few classes which can consistently do better than this, and you destroy them in PvP, plus you have better escape tools.

It looks good

[Laenor]

Resting every 20/25 minutes (more for a wizard like mine, but for a typical one this is accurate) is normal for a strong character.

You can't rest more than every 20 minutes. If I could rest more, I would.

After 15 minutes I m usually starving for spells when I m hunting, except maybe when AoE hunting.

[Corax]

Resting every 20/25 minutes (more for a wizard like mine, but for a typical one this is accurate) is normal for a strong character.

You can't rest more than every 20 minutes. If I could rest more, I would.

After 15 minutes I m usually starving for spells when I m hunting, except maybe when AoE hunting.

I never needed to rest more. The exception is when I was messing around with other stuff and I did not prevent being breached (even more than once, at times of particular carelessness), which of course calls for emergency measures and a shorter autonomy ensues.

Being a competent player, you perfectly know you cannot blast, as a Wizard. A Sorc? maybe. A Warlock? Surely, and with class. But as a wizard, you cannot be successful at top level with direct single target attack spells. You also know the saves on the server are too high to reliably hunt with "save or else" spells: you can use them successfully, but you have to manage their impact on your spellbook (so: not too many of them).

Therefore, you DO AoE hunt. Being a necromancer, you have the best tools to AoE hunt. Spells like Cloudkill and Negative Energy Burst, for instance. Your summon is getting owned? The answer are AoE control spells. When you start playing Control spells frequently, you'll see the CGU Warlock is not bad at all.

You can therefore remove the "maybe" from your last sentence

[Laenor]

Negative energy burst is the worst AoE spell one can use.
If you do AoE killing, you use fire spells : Fireburst, greater fire burst, firewall, Delayed blast fireball.

Cloudkill is conjuration, not necromancy. Save or else spells are useless except Dominate Monster, some epic spells and maybe finger of death against low Fort mobs (it's always nice to have a 65% chance to kill a creature on the spot..., but that won't happen unless you're heavly specialized in necromancy and have spent most of your epic feats in Int / are stacking CL to get epic DC bonuses)

The point is : the change won't do anything about the power of CGU except for pure arcane casters that will lose additional spell slots while using it.

I really don't think it's a good idea to limit the amount of spells available to pure arcane casters, while gishes and divine melee aren't affected as much.

This doesn't even change how powerful a caster is, it just makes it a pain to use the spell since you'll have to memorize two level 9 spells rather than a single level 8 spell to achieve the exact same result.

[AC81]

How do these summons compare to the warlock's The Dead Walk invocation (the 21st level version). I've never used it or these summons.

[Corax]

Negative energy burst is the worst AoE spell one can use.
If you do AoE killing, you use fire spells : Fireburst, greater fire burst, firewall, Delayed blast fireball.

Cloudkill is conjuration, not necromancy. Save or else spells are useless except Dominate Monster, some epic spells and maybe finger of death against low Fort mobs (it's always nice to have a 65% chance to kill a creature on the spot..., but that won't happen unless you're heavly specialized in necromancy and have spent most of your epic feats in Int / are stacking CL to get epic DC bonuses)

The point is : the change won't do anything about the power of CGU except for pure arcane casters that will lose additional spell slots while using it.

I really don't think it's a good idea to limit the amount of spells available to pure arcane casters, while gishes and divine melee aren't affected as much.

This doesn't even change how powerful a caster is, it just makes it a pain to use the spell since you'll have to memorize two level 9 spells rather than a single level 8 spell to achieve the exact same result.

No, I wasnt clear enough, evidently. Let me break this down for everyone.

Negative Energy Burst heals your summon AND takes the strength of those that aggroed it. I couldnt care less about the school of Cloudkill: your summon is immune (because undead are immune to poison) and the enemies will begin to lose constitution at alarming rates. You group people up around your summon, you take their strength away while healing your summon (ray of enfeeblement, negative energy burst), you watch as they die of cloudkill and summon attacks. Fire spells are for n00bs in the cloakwood, with all due respect.

Save or else spells are not useless. Being a high INT, high CL Wizard means that spells like Mass Blindness/Deafness and Wail of the Banshee will always be good when 4/5 enemies gang on your summon. If you are heavily specialized, better.

The point is, by my side, I REALLY think it's time to limit the power of everything, instead of going up. Not of arcane casters. Of everything. It's not a pressing need, mind you. At least, it WAS not, until CGU was buffed to godhood. NOW, it's not a pressing need anymore. I dont like when they buff my character like that. Asking for OP stuff is for wimps.

We have a class that rules PvP and avoid combat at will, PLUS is very decent in PvE, and when it doesnt go great, guess what? You're still unkillable. I dont want buffs to my character, they take away the taste of playing it.

Competent players dont ask for solutions, they find them. Since we have the tools, let's find them...this thread is getting old.

[Laenor]

Are you really playing a late epic wizard ?

Energy burst deals 15d4 damage. The heal is quite meaningless at level 26+.
The strength damage is at best a -2 AB debuff if maximized.

In order to gang creatures on your summon, you either have to use invisibility or HIPS.

When you start hunting epic ennemies, you'll hardly be able to use AoE to hunt stuff - it won't work against Fire/Frost giants, Vault of the dead undeads, nagas and so on (mostly due to the fact that there are nasty casters there)

The epic places where you can safely AoE are trolls and serpent's cave... and even, serpent's cave might be dangerous due to breaching casters.

Finally, the method you're discussing isn't even about killing with your summon, it's about AoE killing, where you absolutely do not rely on your summon to kill stuff - you're the one doing the deeds making the point about "CGU is too strong if it last this long" in this case absolutely moot.

I've got plenty of solutions, believe me.

All I'm saying is, lowering the duration of the spell won't achieve anything except making it more of a pain for evil pure arcanists that use the basic "hunt with spells + an undead summon".

You're not even taking into account the fact that using undeads turns you KoS, hindering the use of the ability on the surface quite a bit.

Edit.: Also, please refrain on the name calling.

"Wimps", "Cloakwood noobs" or even suggesting I'm not a competent player clearly isn't the proper way to refer to the people you're talking with. Thanks !

[Corax]

Are you really playing a late epic wizard ?

I had a lvl 30 Drow Wizard when you were asking for the Server Rules and Custom Changes.

Energy burst deals 15d4 damage. The heal is quite meaningless at level 26+.
The strength damage is at best a -2 AB debuff if maximized.

That AB debuff is fundamental. If enemies hit you with 15+ rolls, for instance, ur toast. With 17+ rolls, you're not. Most of all with a crit immune, 10 DR and 5 regen creature. Honestly.

In order to gang creatures on your summon, you either have to use invisibility or HIPS.

Yes...yes, that rings a bell . Don't forget the "wonky placement", as you defined it in other threads when I was explaining people how to use the environment for this kind of activities.

When you start hunting epic ennemies, you'll hardly be able to use AoE to hunt stuff - it won't work against Fire/Frost giants, Vault of the dead undeads, nagas and so on (mostly due to the fact that there are nasty casters there)

You are a wizard, and you adjust your spells to the enemies you want to fight. Undead have many weaknesses, and many specific spells utterly destroy undead (many are even vulnerable to fire). Giants need different treatment. Netherese Ruins another one. And so on.

If it's too troublesome, by all means: PARTY UP.

I've got plenty of solutions, believe me.

Then why bother continuing to ask for more? This spell has always been 1 round/cl. Now it's two. It means even more when you extend it. It's okay, honestly.

All I'm sayting is, lowering the duration of the spell won't achieve anything except making it more of a pain for pure evil arcanists that use the basic "hunt with spells + an undead summon".
You're not even taking into account the fact that using undeads turns you KoS, hindering the use of the ability on the surface quite a bit.

This is all the same problem, and a very valid point. I did take it into account. That's why it's balanced. When you group with evil people use it, otherwise use Elementals. There you go!

[Valefort]

On the matter of power, remember, the difficulty of the PvE environment is set and will not change overall. The power needed to beat it is relatively low, it takes some thinking and time but ultimately you'll find winning strategies with almost any build.

More power, in any kind or form, is therefore not needed and will cheapen the experience. Flavor on the other hand enriches the game for everyone so ... think hard and ask for advice before asking for more power, in all likelyhood there's a solution to your problem. And if no one can come up with a decent solution then maybe there's a need for a change.

[Corax]

Edit.: Also, please refrain on the name calling.

"Wimps", "Cloakwood noobs" or even suggesting I'm not a competent player clearly isn't the proper way to refer to the people you're talking with. Thanks !

This is a bit odd, in view of:

Being a competent player, you perfectly know ...

Also, since when creating a new toon (aka, being a n00b) is an offense? So, every time I create a new character and go to the cloakwood I have to consider myself offended? Seriously.

But then again, I can imagine you are frustrated. I kinda got the feeling when you opened with

Are you really playing a late epic wizard ?

But I suppose calling me a liar because you cannot dismantle what I (and other eminent players, by the way) say is not to be considered "name calling". Not as much as my calling you "competent player", at least. Or implying that people make new toons. God Forbid

[Laenor]

That's the point : You're not limiting the power of a Wizard by chaging that duration, you're just limiting the fun in using a undead servant as a necromancer to do your deeds.

I can live with 2 less level 9 spells and having to memorize additional buffing spells for sure, but come on, it's annoying to have to suffer that AND to be KoS/not be able to use it in a group to boot. (Yeah, except with a group of evil yadah yadah, you're not only playing with those characters all the time, especially on the surface)

The 1mn duration was a great change, changing that back kinda sucks from a fun perspective.
Power-wise, it won't change anything. It'll just make it more cumbersome.

To be honest, all summons (Phantom bear, Gate and so on...) should last 1mn per level, except Epic Gate due to how strong it is.

[Valefort]

Do you realize you're saying that living with 2 less level 9 spells and addtionnal buffing spells does not change anything power-wise ?

[Darksider_war]

That's the point : You're not limiting the power of a Wizard by chaging that duration, you're just limiting the fun in using a undead servant as a necromancer to do your deeds.

curious, all the magi I have seen running around with CGU summons seemed far more interested in having them effortlessly butcher just about everything the area's spawn throw at them rather than "having fun in using an undead servant as a necromancer to do your deeds". Unless, that is, butchering just about everything with an uber summon comprises "having fun in using an undead servant as a necromancer to do your deeds"

Edit:
By the way, yesterday evening I had a happy and relaxing chat with breteas, AKA the Holy Knight of the Nerfhammer: while the chat's details are unnecessary, it was rather curious seeing him answer to my tells with an alarming speed, considering that he was grinding inside the netherese ruins, and his undead summon was more than enough to mulch everything without him having to actually interfere.