Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

There were posts on this years ago ... it basically amounted to the fact that invocations aren't spells and are thus subject to higher ( much higher) dc's to recognise them. People then argued that knowing what an invocation isn't basically gave them a right to ID invocations (by ruling out a few other potential uses of magic. E.g. Well it isn't arcane, so it must be an invocation, so you must be a warlock -die!)
Warlocks are masters of making their blasts look different , unfortunately our game engine is limited. From a common sense point of view most people don't even know warlocks exist. IMO, you should have very high (25+) lore arcana and spellcraft AND have seen examples of warlock magic to even have a chance.
Warlocks are one of the most meta'd classes on the server. The liberties people take with the game engine in ID'ing them is BS!

Edit:
And no, I don't play a warlock, but I did and despite investing heavily in bluff and perform, this very aspect of RP drove me away from the class (and a lot of other RP) permanently.

AC81 wrote:There were posts on this years ago ... it basically amounted to the fact that invocations aren't spells and are thus subject to higher ( much higher) dc's to recognise them. People then argued that knowing what an invocation isn't basically gave them a right to ID invocations (by ruling out a few other potential uses of magic. E.g. Well it isn't arcane, so it must be an invocation, so you must be a warlock -die!)
Warlocks are masters of making their blasts look different , unfortunately our game engine is limited. From a common sense point of view most people don't even know warlocks exist. IMO, you should have very high (25+) lore arcana and spellcraft AND have seen examples of warlock magic to even have a chance.

An interesting point you could consider is that warlock abilities (gestures, voice, etc) are supposed to look simpler than arcane casting, which is the reason why warlocks can cast in light armor without arcane failure. It is actually mentioned in warlock class. So for a wizard a warlock ability/invocation is something that would stand out a LOT.

Either way, I don't agree with you here, and let's leave it at that. I guess people want different things.

AC81 wrote: Edit:
And no, I don't play a warlock, but I did and despite investing heavily in bluff and perform, this very aspect of RP drove me away from the class (and a lot of other RP) permanently.

I've never had this happen to me, actually.

Then again, I never played good-aligned feylocks and never expected to be able to hide the abilities forever.

Well its a strange PnP:NWN issue. In PnP you get a knowledge check etc to know what something is, if you don't you don't. Nothing left to do but learn.

This is easy to keep track of with a solid party of 2-8 people and a DM. In NWN its impossible or at a minimum unreasonable to enforce this already fragile and streamlined system.

As a result we frequently gain the whole matrix of results:
-People who do their best to uphold their character and self monitor
-People who don't know the better
-People who don't care and RP whatever they want
-People who do a mix of all of the above depending on how they feel that moment

I have personally never seen a class get so much harshness doled onto it before.

NegInfinity wrote:

Kanada wrote:People thinking 1 spellcraft is enough to recognize my firestride exhalation is different than a wizards or sorcerer's is exactly my problem with this whole thing.

They recognize it when it shows in combat log. If it does't show up, they don't recognize it.

Maximvs wrote: That's... a very weird argument. There are also warlock spells considered lvl 2, 4 and 6 I think? Why did you skip them all and went straight to lvl 4 invocations? It's ok to be wrong from time to time bro.

DC 17, 19, 21 accordingly. Also, I think essences affect it.
Go to anydice and check out your chances.

If you don't want to be recognized - don't cast that stuff with untrusted bystanders present.

The combat log is not IC. Not at all. It shows tons of stuff it's not supposed to.

@ Neg (and likeminded orhers):
The current system ( which you seem to be endorsing) allows someone with 1 cross classed point of spellcraft to ID even a level 30 warlock. I think the rules (forum rules, we probably can't change the engine) need to be changed to avoid that being able to happen. It's that kind of RP douche-baggery that we need to avoid.
Also, I never played a feylock. I was always an infernal pact lawful evil warlock. Anything other than an infernal pact is super rare, even amongst the rare warlock pc. Not sure whether he still has any work left on the forums but a player by the name of zlaayer put up lots of great info on warlocks years ago. IMO, his work should've been stickied.

AC81 wrote:@ Neg (and likeminded orhers):
The current system ( which you seem to be endorsing) allows someone with 1 cross classed point of spellcraft to ID even a level 30 warlock. I think the rules (forum rules, we probably can't change the engine) need to be changed to avoid that being able to happen. It's that kind of RP douche-baggery that we need to avoid.

"I want people to be unable to ID me" doesn't sound right to me.

You stop gaining new spells after level 20, so aside from epic spells it is the same thing as IDing level 20 warlock. In the same way you should be able to id evil spells from wizards/clerics. Your least invocations also do not evolve with time, and since warlocks are not exactly supposed to live long, easy invocations being easier to ID makes sense - larger number of people heard of those.

AC81 wrote: Also, I never played a feylock. I was always an infernal pact lawful evil warlock. Anything other than an infernal pact is super rare, even amongst the rare warlock pc.

And if you're going to touch pacts, then your chances of making an infernal pact and becoming a warlock this way are pretty much zero. See fiendish codex II page 21 for the list of possible rewards for selling your soul (you can get whopping 600xp for it at level 1). You do have a chance of becomeing a warlock as a part of a cult or if your ancestor somehow managed to sell souls of his entire bloodline.

That part is WotC's fault, though. They never bothered to explain where the warlock gets his/her power from and how.

Blackguards make pacts, though. They bargain with fiends, who put them in service of gods. Now, compare blackguard's power with warlock's.

----

Look at it this way. Someone who has 1 point spellcraft - they read a book about magic. Once. During the night. In the storm. While drunk. So they usually don't remember a thing. However, once in a blue moon the pieces of knowledge might surface from their feeble mind, and they might rememebr that they saw this or that "spell" attributed to the warlock. That's what this DC16 roll represents.

Also, keep in mind that being trained in skill allows you to take 20 on it - meaning when you're not threatened, you can research and try stuff. That's basically how it is (supposed) to work for Warriors of Darkness/Annointed Knights. With their mighty 3 points in skillcraft requirements they wasted a lot of time researching can came up with a magic oil recipe and that ritual of theirs.

Except that invocations aren't spells and are therefore subject to completely different DC's. And I never said I want warlocks to be unidentifiable, but they are undoubtedly rarer than your 'common' wizard, so Joe Average shouldn't be able to tell the difference at all. My point is there should be some effort and specialisation involved - not just , "hey my level 2 fighter has 1 point in spellcraft, my combat log says you're using hideous blow, so you're a warlock! " ( proceed to ruin any further Rp)
But you know what? It doesn't worry me, I don't play warlocks anymore, so Rp with them how you will with them.

NegInfinity wrote:They recognize it when it shows in combat log. If it does't show up, they don't recognize it.

Wrong.

Kanada wrote:The combat log is not IC. Not at all. It shows tons of stuff it's not supposed to.

Right.

Snarfy wrote:

NegInfinity wrote:They recognize it when it shows in combat log. If it does't show up, they don't recognize it.

Wrong.

Kanada wrote:The combat log is not IC. Not at all. It shows tons of stuff it's not supposed to.

Right.

Not entirely accurate.

http://dndtools.pw/skills/spellcraft/

"Use this skill to identify spells as they are cast or spells already in place."

Deathgrowl wrote:Not entirely accurate.

http://dndtools.pw/skills/spellcraft/

"Use this skill to identify spells as they are cast or spells already in place."

The point is: the combat log should not be considered reliable for RP/IC purposes. It's full of meta-info. For instance:

AC81 wrote:The current system ( which you seem to be endorsing) allows someone with 1 cross classed point of spellcraft to ID even a level 30 warlock.

Sorry, but level 1 Fighter Joe who who has only killed 3 skeletons in his adventuring career and has never IC'ly met a warlock shouldn't know jack shit about what an epic level warlock is casting, regardless what the combat log OOC'ly tells them.

Snarfy wrote: The point is: the combat log should not be considered reliable for RP/IC purposes. It's full of meta-info. For instance:

Well, I partially agree. But when it shows "x is casting unknown spell", you know your character can't identify it due to too low spellcraft roll. And what follows from that is if it shows "x is casting fireball", your character did idenfity it.

I feel like it's probably safe to lock this thread? Feel free to hit me up if you disagree.

You can proposition the DMs to make a ruling on the more contentious issues discussed here, if desired. In the meantime, just try to follow the golden rule of gaming -- make sure everyone's having a good time.

Communication between players can be key if there's ever confusion about how a given situation should play out in character.