thought of the day on tanks

[chad878262]

Courtesy of karond:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=43906&hilit=Ultima ... n+defender

[7threalm]

I had one of those builds you can solo everything except the white dragon, but my issues were the rp was kind of bad, dwarf that worships a water god, come on. Also they are horrible to level up the dmg is so low it is very difficult to play and level, add in the muti-class penatly.

I rcr em @ 30 just because I didnt like the rp, but you burn through alot of kits as well so not much fun, also using a heal kit, kicks you out of dwarven stance

[Invoker]

I had one of those builds you can solo everything except the white dragon, but my issues were the rp was kind of bad, dwarf that worships a water god, come on. Also they are horrible to level up the dmg is so low it is very difficult to play and level, add in the muti-class penatly.

I rcr em @ 30 just because I didnt like the rp, but you burn through alot of kits as well so not much fun, also using a heal kit, kicks you out of dwarven stance

I find this a little narrow-minded.

You should know that Karond, in the years, played multiple Dwarven Defenders, and they were all extremely impressive. Starkad, for instance, was getting Evasion via Rogue dip, and the performances were pretty much on the level of Grimm. I remember Molag_Bal (so, an excellent player, surely among the best I've ever seen) commenting that "the slayer of Karond" (Starkad) was the only melee build daring to solo the Frost Keep, back in 2011, and actually having success.

His "Ultimate DD" is just that: the best DD you can possibly make, mechanically speaking. A Dwarf worshipping Istishia is a very unique concept, and in fact, it's HIS RP concept. It wasn't for others to mainstream. He offered to share the build and explain its fundamentals, and this kind of criticism after nobody ever asked anything about his RP feels out of place.

Regardless of all this, Dwarven Defender isn't an "offender", balance-wise. It's a top-tier class.

Top-tier classes aren't offenders.

[aaron22]

Does any other top tier class have a racial requirment?

[7threalm]

I had one of those builds you can solo everything except the white dragon, but my issues were the rp was kind of bad, dwarf that worships a water god, come on. Also they are horrible to level up the dmg is so low it is very difficult to play and level, add in the muti-class penatly.

I rcr em @ 30 just because I didnt like the rp, but you burn through alot of kits as well so not much fun, also using a heal kit, kicks you out of dwarven stance

I find this a little narrow-minded.

You should know that Karond, in the years, played multiple Dwarven Defenders, and they were all extremely impressive. Starkad, for instance, was getting Evasion via Rogue dip, and the performances were pretty much on the level of Grimm. I remember Molag_Bal (so, an excellent player, surely among the best I've ever seen) commenting that "the slayer of Karond" (Starkad) was the only melee build daring to solo the Frost Keep, back in 2011, and actually having success.

His "Ultimate DD" is just that: the best DD you can possibly make, mechanically speaking. A Dwarf worshipping Istishia is a very unique concept, and in fact, it's HIS RP concept. It wasn't for others to mainstream. He offered to share the build and explain its fundamentals, and this kind of criticism after nobody ever asked anything about his RP feels out of place.

Regardless of all this, Dwarven Defender isn't an "offender", balance-wise. It's a top-tier class.

Top-tier classes aren't offenders.

acutally its because istaria/and the evil winter god/ grants evasion, and slippery mind lol, two very powerful feats

also that class is so horrible to level, trust me I did it, nothing great about hiting stuff for 10 dmg lol

[aaron22]

I am actually not wanting to take dd away. I would like there be similar plays from other races.

[7threalm]

there really are not that many dedicated dwarves these days sadly, most of them are on reserve and only come out for dm events, or something related to dwarves

[chad878262]

Any tank is going to "suck to level" no different than a gish really...but also will never have to worry about fugue unless you do something fairly stupid.

[7threalm]

the best tank, i seen so far are the barbs that can rock the low ac, high dr and lots of hp , because they are usually targeted by the mobs

there is not great aggression control for nwn 2 so it is what it is, I wish taunt work on drawing agression.

sort like taunt should= man at arms challenge, it would be nice, wouldn't hurt pvp at all, just a good pve ability

it be nice just take that code and applie to taunt, and then just give man at arms something nice

[aaron22]

The best aggro control I have seen is from maa using Ikd to stop mobs in thier tracks when the do the run past. Also aggro control works both ways. Toons that don't want mobs on top of them should have outs when they come. This takes clever play and some trial and error. It is also important to get your ac up. Glass canons don't last in duo/ group play. Unless you think the fugue is aggro control.

[Vogar Eol]

The DD is not stationary. If it chooses to go stance it can. Look at the ALL THE TIME offense of the DD build vs the what.... 16 mins / rest of the barb 30 build. Your barb's offense would be gish like. It's rest dependent to maintain even a workable pace. I am sure somebody could roll up a better dd than mine as well. I did it in like 4 mins.

F12/dd10/r4/AK4

Are we talking about TANKS (aka defense) or Damage? As for 16 minutes of offense, who cares? People treat every melee caster who can last 16 minutes as having unlimited offense. Why? Because they can make it to the next rest timer. Saying 16 minutes is too little on one hand, and too much on the other is cognitive dissonance.

The Barbarian build stated TANKS just fine, regardless of how much you like or dislike the offensive ability. It's defense is very very comparable to the Karond DD in AC, Evasion, Hitpoints, and has more DR and Speed.

[ARHicks00]

You do not NEED SR to survive PvE.

Didn't say you did, but SR means there is one less venue to burn your tank with. The Wz/Palemaster/Swiftblade build eliminates most venues both passively and spell wise. It also gets a high around the 50s. So whether ypu get ot as a class, race, or spell, SR os always good to have.

Dwarven Defender is one of the top tier classes to build with on the server. If you can't solo basically everything, but the white dragon on a DD than either you built it wrong or aren't playing it right.

Again, my point is you can't grab arggo and mitigate all damage sources so you really can't tank in this game so why bother. Plus, most tanks are dependent on items, scrolls, and potion to try to be effective meat shield. At least i try to make builds that are least dependent on server items.

Not my experience at all. In fact, specific areas have 1 or 2 types of elemental damage it is a good idea to protect against and anything else is just random traps. You don't need to avoid ALL damage with a decent amount of HP, you just need to mitigate it and carry some heal kits.

I am not just talking about this server, but NWN and aDnD in general. Whether you are doing pencil and paper or point & click, you can't tank because the mechanics were not built for it. Unless DM in the PnP game roleplays it, there is no reason for an enemy NPC to allow itself to be taunted into fighting you. As for mitigating damage, it depends how you build your character and the items provided. However, the venues you can be burned the better.

Nothing wrong with that build, but it is going to move SLOWLY through content. Take 1 1/2 minutes to ward up, does crap melee damage and will run out of spells fairly quick. Nothing wrong with this, but I wouldn't act like it's going to be the best build in the world to play. And still doesn't have SR and low HP so one IGMS and it's going down.

Gish builds and battle cleric/war priest builds rarely rely on spells, but rather use spells a tool rather their main weapon. There first answer is to use weapons to save on ammo/memorized spells. So long as they have a harden defense nothing else matters, but if they run into a problem where their weapons are useless or their armor can't handle then they start using the big guns. Most of the time that is when they run into the boss. DMs in general frown on this type of gameplay because they believe it to be powergaming and selfish game when it really is not.

There should always be counter play. You don't need to be resistant to ALL forms of damage, you just need to know the one or two you should defend against and this is easy to do with items, scrolls, potions, etc.

See statement #1 and #3. Again what is provided means you have to expect the damage to bigger in the long run. So if you get something that negates 10 damage than expect end game content to hit twice as hard.

[ARHicks00]

A DD's stance is very necessary for its effectiveness. It is disrupted by practically everything, also. Except during prolonged boss fights, you aren't going to get to camp in one place. Even then, use a scroll or potion, or have to adjust your positioning... even miss-click the boss and stance is canceled.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?263069
Here is an example of a tanky Barbarian I rolled up with no forethought. Note that it misses BGTSCC bonus feats at various levels (10, 20, 30). It's AC should still be:
+10 base
+1 Luck of Heroes
+1 Dex Item
+8 Full plate
+4 Armor Enhancement Bonus
+4 Tower Shield
+4 Shield Enhancement Bonus
+2 Heavy Armor Optimization Bonuses
+2 Level 20 Barbarian Bonus
+1 Armor Skin
+4 Deflection Item
+4 Dodge Boots
+4 Natural Amulet
+1 Tumble
TOTAL: 50 AC (no Rage or UMD)

When inside Rage:
+5 Whirlwind Frenzy
+4 Ice Troll Berserker (actually +8, but subtracting an amulet)
TOTAL: 59 AC (no UMD)

Cleric/Warpriest/Dragonslayer/Hospitaler build i am making, will eventually get:
10 base
10 shield/armor enchant spell
11 mithril fullplate and 16/+3 Dex
1 dodge
3 tumble
4 Dodge AC
5 Deflection spell
4 Natural AC
Up to 48 AC. If I use a heavy shield then i get 50 or 52 with tower shield. Haste potion gives 51 to 53, Prayer gives 52 to 54. I think battletide takes off -2 for enemies to hit so that is an extra 54 to 56. So can get between 50 to 56 AC. May not be up there with your build, but she comes with high saves and BAB (and AB when buffed) along with evasion as well as a 25 CL level.

[chad878262]

Nice build! Kudos on going below CL 28. Takes a bit of planning for the "what ifs" but that makes it fun IMO

[aaron22]

A tank is a role. The good tank is to mitigate, avoid, and sink damage as well as hold aggro even in dire circumstances. A better tank can deal damage in addition to doing those tasks. I am unsure you have ever played a mmorpg. Where "tank" comes from. A good healer can keep the party up even in the worst circumstances. A better heals can do that plus add dps. Your barb 30 is a good tank. My dd build is a better tank. I would have a hard time seeing a build on this platform that can suck up damage and deal damage like that one can.

I could make another tank that is barb20/dd10. And that would be better than your barb30 but "i don't think" is as good as the f12/dd10/r4/ak4.

I was also explaining that your build having alot of its power limited to 16 minutes per rest makes it more rest dependent than the DD that would not really need to stance unless maybe on a boss.

My build has evasion early to help against the low Reflex, but that doesn't really matter because reflex saves usually deal dmg and the haf damage with 500 hp and max heal skill that would be whatever. Also has as high umd as you wish to make use of consumables as you see fit.