Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Nah just let Ud folks explore the surface , More to do for the drow more rp for every one.

Rinzler wrote:

NegInfinity wrote: And so can you. So?

This whole thread is about an appropriate balance between the Underdark and Surface. It's greedy, that's what. Give some exclusivity to the Underdark. There's a million quests on the surface as it is, you don't exactly need more. It just seems you just want more more more for the surface and screw how it affects the balance of the Underdark.

That, or open up some surface quests to the Underdark PCs.

So the drow would run errands for surface blacksmiths and worshippers of illmater? That doesn't make any sense.

NegInfinity wrote: So the drow would run errands for surface blacksmiths and worshippers of illmater? That doesn't make any sense.

You're right - makes about as much sense as a surface PC doing quests beneath the surface.

Rinzler wrote:You're right - makes about as much sense as a surface PC doing quests beneath the surface.

I fail to see how that's anymore strange than drow running errands for deep gnomes?

Rinzler wrote:

NegInfinity wrote: So the drow would run errands for surface blacksmiths and worshippers of illmater? That doesn't make any sense.

You're right - makes about as much sense as a surface PC doing quests beneath the surface.

Those quests are for gnomes not drow and Deep gnomes are found on the surface.....Feck I hate it when people want to use lore then ignore it for convenience........

This whole thread makes no sense IMHO. It is entirely brought up for PvP reasons despite the OP stating otherwise. It is clear this person wishes to change the rules to just be able to attack for no reason and this has been shot down time and again by the server. Which I presume is about to happen again after 8 pages of this nonsense.

Calodan wrote: This whole thread makes no sense IMHO. It is entirely brought up for PvP reasons despite the OP stating otherwise. It is clear this person wishes to change the rules to just be able to attack for no reason and this has been shot down time and again by the server. Which I presume is about to happen again after 8 pages of this nonsense.

That couldn't be further from the truth. Ask anyone from the surface who's encountered me and they'll tell you otherwise. I'm not a PvP monger in the slightest. I'm much less hostile than my character sheet dictates just because the RP is so limited and I don't want to run people off from coming back again. Especially lower levels who are trying to gain some XP in Kro's but are respectful enough to RP with me.

As an example: You can ask the Underdark discord chat. There was a group of 7-8 surface PCs in the Upperdark all in the lower level range and I was encouraged to attack them (by a DM of all people). I said no because I thought it wasn't the right thing to do as they were low level just trying to have some fun in the Underdark.

You presume way too much - I just want some reciprocation in terms of balance and fairness.

At least in my experience when I log in about 10% of the players are Underdark toons. Why would admin/DM staff agree to cut off the Upperdark to the vast majority of the player base? Unless there ends up being a much larger interest in the Underdark from the players there is not much reason to favor Underdark over the large majority.

Simply put, while the server is quite large it is still finite. Understanding this makes it a simple equation to see why decisions were made the way they were. Underdark players wanted new area's, but already accounted for more space than the size of the player base would dictate. By adding Upperdark it allowed for an area where the two groups could both be allowed while still keeping the main rules for Surface/Underdark in place. Thus Underdark players got a decent number of new area's, but so did the Surface population, theoretically everyone's happy.

To be quite frank, if the goal was new area's without intermixing them, those area's would have likely been dedicated to the surface. Thus keeping the two wholly separate, while adding area's the majority of the server population would enjoy. However, the Underdark hadn't seen any major additions in a long time so it was a decent compromise (IMO) to put in the Upperdark and allow for both groups to use it.

End of the day, regardless of Surface or Underdark you are occasionally going to run in to players that don't RP and don't respond to IC or OOC requests for them to follow rules. I once was in the Cloudpeak foothills and some other player was running around at top speeds, shooting giants I was engaged with and 'stealing' kills. He was also leaving loot bags all over the place which at the time I thought caused server lag. I tried to engage IC, then OOC through tells and he didn't respond so I got a DM involved. DM took him to a DM area and I imagine had a discussion with him. Next day he was doing the same thing and ended with the same result after which I didn't see that player any more.

If people are ignoring you the best practice is to ignore them. If they are outright breaking rules such as camping spawns, AFK grinding, 'stealing' kills, or otherwise breaking server rules then contact the DM staff, take screen shots, whatever you need to do. It doesn't make you a bad person because simply put rule breakers impact other players, not just you so by calling them on it you are saving others from experiencing any grief in the future. Otherwise, best to play the way and with who you like to play. If other players make your play time less enjoyable then go elsewhere or look for something else to do in game or out. It's just not worth letting someone else ruin your day.

TL;DR - It is far more likely the Upperdark would go away to be replaced with something else than for it to become Underdark only in my opinion. The only way it would make sense to have more Underdark only area's is if there was a higher percentage of Underdark players on more often. So careful what you wish for, because you might get something that resembles what you are looking for, but it may be very much to your detriment.

Rinzler wrote:There was a group of 7-8 surface PCs in the Upperdark all in the lower level range and I was encouraged to attack them (by a DM of all people). I said no because I thought it wasn't the right thing to do as they were low level just trying to have some fun in the Underdark.

Which translates into a wasted opportunity to have a fun interaction with other people due to OOC concerns. This is sad.

Rinzler wrote:

NegInfinity wrote: So the drow would run errands for surface blacksmiths and worshippers of illmater? That doesn't make any sense.

You're right - makes about as much sense as a surface PC doing quests beneath the surface.

The whole thread started with somewhat valid "I encountered an OOC behavior and I"m unhappy about it", and somehow devolved into something that sounds a lot like "I want more XP" (why else would you need surface quests?). That's very disappointing.

The whole thing about "fariness" and "balance" is a red herring. There's no balance in DND, and characters are only entitled to die screaming. That's the extent of the fairness. You picked more difficult race, more difficult location to start with, and it is your job to figure out how to get ahead. That's how it normally goes. You think and look for a way to get around some issue you're facing. If you want to have an easy life, pick a Human and make them a favored soul. You'll have the easiest time on the server.

In many situations there seems to be low familiarity with PVP and server rules. For example, there are multiple isntances of auto-consent where you pretty much can toggle hostile and isntantly attack the other party. Do you know them all?

It is also disappointing to see that all previous suggestions of dealing with the perceived issue in RP way has been ignored.
1. Make a patrol - ignored.
2. Hire an assassin - ignored.
Why? It would be loads of fun and could sparkle more roleplay.

The other disappointing thing is that since the time this thread has started, I haven't met anyone at that map. No drow, no surfacers, nothing. Your character also haven't shown up to, I don't know, defend the giants rats and their chests there in the name of lolth. If the drow want to execute control over the area, they should demonstrate their presence, and consider wiping out rockrun off the map, because, last time I checked, this city is actually independent and is not under drow control.

Instead it is a lot of "I want" posts.

Well, at least idea thrown by Face earlier looks like it could lead to something interesting.

NegInfinity wrote: Which translates into a wasted opportunity to have a fun interaction with other people due to OOC concerns. This is sad.

It was a fun interaction I just didn't attempt to PvP them for simply being from the surface. As Calodan accused me of being a KoS monger - which isn't true.

I need to listen to my own advice I said earlier. We know where we all stand on the issue of the Upperdark. So I'm going to leave it to rest because this thread is going nowhere.

Rinzler wrote: I need to listen to my own advice I said earlier. We know where we all stand on the issue of the Upperdark. So I'm going to leave it to rest because this thread is going nowhere.

What advice?

If the idea was to improve RP, I don't see anyone getting excited about "patrol" or "assassinate" idea for some reason. Which is a pity, bumping into a organized group of drow could've been a lot of fun.

If the idea was to bring in "fairness", well, chad outlined situation very well earlier.

I have always treated Soubar like Rockrun of the surface. I think Northern regions (Soubar, Darkhold, Dragonspear castle, Misty forest etc.) should be treated as transfer zone to the civilized surface world (like Upperdark is considered as transfer zone to the sinister Underdark). In other words, Northern Regions for underdarkers = Upperdark for surfacers (according to rules and common sense). No KOS for drow/duergars in these lands, simple as that.

Upperdark is the transition area. Period. It isn't a surfacer transition area. Surface races aren't being given extra leeway there. It works the same for both.

Upperdark is not and has never been the underdark. It is and always has been a transition, no KOS realm.

Complain about people running without RP. You have a point there. It hasn't anything to do with surface and UD interaction, however. It is the minimal-RP world that we play in.

Just for the sake of argument at this point:

Menzoberranzan is technically in the Upperdark. So defining an all encompassing rulebook based on the topography of the Underdark isn't exactly lore appropriate either. There would be varying levels of hostility depending where exactly in the Upperdark you are.

NegInfinity wrote:

Rinzler wrote: I need to listen to my own advice I said earlier. We know where we all stand on the issue of the Upperdark. So I'm going to leave it to rest because this thread is going nowhere.

What advice?

If the idea was to improve RP, I don't see anyone getting excited about "patrol" or "assassinate" idea for some reason. Which is a pity, bumping into a organized group of drow could've been a lot of fun.

If the idea was to bring in "fairness", well, chad outlined situation very well earlier.

I'm really not trying to keep responding solely to you Neg! But I don't think he could have put an assassination bounty out on this guy considering he had no way to identify him to the said assassin. I mean, unless assassins are okay with just standing in the Upperdark waiting for a random dwarf to come sprinting by.

I gave it a bit of thought, and finally remembered the very obvious elephant in the room. I can't believe I forgot something this obvious. And I can't believe nobody else mentioned it.

Surface dwarves live there. They build cities underground, and those frequently reach upperdark areas.

So complaints about red-bearded pale surface dwarves running in the upperdark are void. The dwarves live there. Their cities are on THIS level. In the upperdark. For real.

This is actually documented in "Forgotten Realms - UNderdark". Page 117 and later.

Upperdark: Up to 3 miles below ground. Races:
chitines, drow, dwarves, giants, goblinoids, orcs, sivrfneblin, wererats.

Middledark: 3 to 10 miles below ground. Most of the cities of drow and durgar are here. Other races: Aboleths, cloakers, derro, grimlocks, kuo-toas and occasional mindflayer outposts.

Lowerdark: 10 miles down and lower. Apparently a far-realm level stuff, with creatures that never heard of surface world or think it is a mythical place. Aboleths, Avolakia, Beholders, Cloakers, Deepspawn, Derro, Desmodus, DDestrachans, Elementals, Extraplanars (lots of portals), Psurlons, Tomb Tappers and Undead.

.....

So, I suggest to check out lore books and pvp rules as well.

8 pages and nobody mentioned this.

Actual citation:

Dwarves: For thousands of years, the great dwarven realms of the surface would have expanded downward instead of outward. Neither gold dwarves nor shield dwarves harbor any fear of the Underdark, and their cities are often buried in the upper reaches of the Realms Below. The kingdom of Iltkazar is the strongest shield dwarf realm remaining in the Underdark, and the gold dwarves there retain extensive Underdark holdings in the vicinity of the Great Rift.

Unlike the duergar, who prefer the deeper portions of the Underdark, gold and shield dwarves keep fields and livestock on the surface and trade extensively with surface folk. These dwarves are gifted engineers and industrious workers, and they have built many roads and bridges in the Underdark.