My observations after "no grind at the other side" Upgrade

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

I will do my best to keep this thread up. Please clean up your posts (or allow me to delete) or this will be locked.

I came to edit the post but it is missing somewhere *shrugs*. Thanks for not locking though.

[Diamore]

PVP never purely resolves OOC behaviour like "zombie" grinders. DMs are not always on or able to police actions. Automation of certain things is simply a requirement of a server. Examples include: Spawns, RP xp, gate guards.

DM oversight and policing of the UD, combined with increased RP opportunities in the UD will help encourage people to stay there but only until the DM logs/retires. The next timezone of players will likely act entirely differently. So DMs for the UD is okay, but is historically hard to keep because of various causes of stress for such a position. This hasn't been the "fix" before and it won't be now.

UD has some core problem such as a small player base comparative to the surface and fewer areas. The addition of the upperdark to the server meant a much larger region to explore for all involved. But new players attempting the UD still give up quickly due to map difficulty, long grind from ECL, less players and other issues.

There is no one quick fix to all the UDs problems. But the current fix works as intended.

A better use of time would be discussing how to improve the UDs ability to create self sustaining RP, keep DMs and players...

Suggestions

• Give UD characters their mini-maps back
• Give UD all of the Upperdark levels
• Remove all routes to and from the surface
• Have all movement between surface and UD organised by DMs or by application
• Existing UD characters on surface select which they will stay on. Permanently
• Have guilds able to purchase a specific portal with a cost(gold/xp/tokens) to use that moves them to an allied guild on the surface. Swifnerblin to Dwarves for example.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

Basically, "king of crayfish" could probably try capturing the guys they've defeated.

And how do you imagine it mechanically? I don't own any property to hold the prisoners. It is a hard thing to do even with roleplayers who admitted their defeat, and if we are talking about grinders, well... They will just walk away/continue the grind ignoring you. I really want this mechanic to be implemented, but right now imprisoning looks troublesome at least.

[NegInfinity]

A better use of time would be discussing how to improve the UDs ability to create self sustaining RP, keep DMs and players...]

This would work better in a new thread.

Basically, "king of crayfish" could probably try capturing the guys they've defeated.

And how do you imagine it mechanically? I don't own any property to hold the prisoners. It is a hard thing to do even with roleplayers who admited their defeat, and if we are talking about grinders, well... They will just walk away/continue the grind ignoring you. I really want this mechanic to be implemented, but right now imprisoning looks troublesome at least.

Hmm. You could drag them to UD outpost entrance and leave ther assuming they're imprisoned...

But I see your point. That would've been the good time to apply "send back" button.

[Brother Bruce]

Suggestions

• Give UD characters their mini-maps backMinor annoyance, but sure,
  why not?
• Give UD all of the Upperdark levelsDont mind there being a neutral zone,
  perhaps extend a bit more area to the surface. more 'neutral' ground to meet under and RP in.
• Remove all routes to and from the surfaceno
• Have all movement between surface and UD organised by DMs or by applicationhave more or some movement organized by or overseen by DMs but putting it entirely in DM territory is a problem for multiple reasons.
• Existing UD characters on surface select which they will stay on. PermanentlyNever know where RP will take your character. That's not really a good idea. I could go on about this in particular, but, cmon...
• Have guilds able to purchase a specific portal with a cost(gold/xp/tokens) to use that moves them to an allied guild on the surface. Swifnerblin to Dwarves for example.That's a pretty neat idea I can see any guild using, rather like this and perhaps expanding on the idea a bit.

[NegInfinity]

Suggestions

• Give UD characters their mini-maps back
• Give UD all of the Upperdark levels
• Remove all routes to and from the surface
• Have all movement between surface and UD organised by DMs or by application
• Existing UD characters on surface select which they will stay on. Permanently
• Have guilds able to purchase a specific portal with a cost(gold/xp/tokens) to use that moves them to an allied guild on the surface. Swifnerblin to Dwarves for example.

No.

Majority of it is harmful, so might as well remove Surface instead.

It doesn't make sense to monitor cross-realm movement to this extent in the world with planar travel. There are people who visited hell or plane of shadows and lived. Reaching THOSE areas should not be easier than reaching underdark.

[Diamore]

Majority of it is harmful, so might as well remove Surface instead.

Surface has far more active players areas and DM support. Your reasoning does not support the premise. Nothing mentioned is harmful. Feel free to explain how it is.

It doesn't make sense to monitor cross-realm movement to this extent in the world with planar travel.

Yes it does. I have never gone to, spoken IC about, acknowledged or supported the existence of the Hell region as it normalises the idea amongst the server population. The distribution of hell items to de-incentivise travel there is one of the best decisions this year. All other "planar" travel is done through DM interaction and events, something that my suggested alterations would not change.

There are people who visited hell or plane of shadows and lived. Reaching THOSE areas should not be easier than reaching underdark.

I don't believe players should simply go to those areas either. Aside from Shadow Adepts reaching the Shadow Realm. Who would have a portal in a guild perhaps. That could use gold/tokens/exp to reach it when it no DM is available to assist with it...

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

Majority of it is harmful, so might as well remove Surface instead.

Surface has far more active players areas and DM support. Your reasoning does not support the premise. Nothing mentioned is harmful. Feel free to explain how it is.

Restricting the communication and separating two worlds is a dead way. Perhaps I didn't state it anywhere above, but I don't bother surfacers visiting the Upper/Underdark actually, I am against their disrespectful attitude. And I can not even blame surface players for this - of course they are acting this way since there are absolutely no IC consequences of their actions, so they are feeling free to do whatever they want. There are such consequences for the UDers on the surface, yes. I just want the same conditions to be created for surfacers.

Briefly, what I suggest:
1) Remove all the XP/Loot restrictions, or at least give UDers ability to gain XP/Loot in the Northern regions and epic areas.
2) Allow UDers to KoS surfacers in the Upperdark (not only the Underdark)
3) If the surfacers lose PvP in the Upper/Underdark, they must get back to the surface (unless the winner decides to imprison them). If they refuse they recieve permastrikes.

[Valefort]

How about a limited ability to get exp and loot while on the other side ? Such as 5 loot containers and 1000 exp per reset. Past that we're already entering the grinding and looting territory.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

How about a limited ability to get exp and loot while on the other side ? Such as 5 loot containers and 1000 exp per reset. Past that we're already entering the grinding and looting territory.

All those mechanical crutches are just making the world less believable, they are ruining the immersion, but they don't solve the issues. Surfacers are invading the Upperdark not because of easy loot, but because of easy loot without any resistance from the Underdark dwellers/IC mechanics. Just let the UDers more freedom to handle those problems on their own (the ones I stated above) and this will make much more sense for everyone.

With the ability to loot any ammount of chests without restrictions, there were practically no UDers on the surface. Why? Because of IC mechanics such as permastrikes, KoS and resistance from the surface playerbase. My point is to create the same conditions for surfacers while they are underground.

[Valefort]

You know those restrictions come from UDers being on the surface in the first place, not surfacers coming in Underdark. Also the Upperdark was intoduced to have a set of areas where the two sides can interact without KoS threat. Your suggestions won't solve this and will end the Upperdark specificities.

[NegInfinity]

Nothing mentioned is harmful. Feel free to explain how it is.

It'll lock UD in the box, cut off all UD<->Surface interactions and slowly kill off UD population completely.

"Majority" is not a very good argument. See, you can ALWAYS pick server population, split it into "majority" and "minority", then remove content used by minority, making them leave. Do that enough time, and you'll reduce population to 1 player.

Basically "Majority wants it" is not a good reason to dismiss minority.

Either way, I'd advise to roll level 1 UD character play a bit, see how it is, and then rethink your position.

How about a limited ability to get exp and loot while on the other side ? Such as 5 loot containers and 1000 exp per reset. Past that we're already entering the grinding and looting territory.

Valfort, previously I proposed "anti-grinding measures" for people on other side, and I believe this was sent to developer team by endelyon.

The idea is was that if you kill too much in one area, the xp is cut if you're otherworlder, until you leave the zone.

I think that limiting BY total XP is wrong. Limit should be by kill count, and it should work in similar way as current dynamic spawns (where killing too many creatures makes them all run away from you, but eventually they'll come back).

Basically, I feel like people should be able to travel on the other side and explore, while gaining combat xp.

While I agree with "kind of crayfish" that mechanical restrictions should die and think they're a wrgon idea this would be a decent compromise. A very unpleasant, but barely acceptable compromise.

Keep in mind that main complaints in this thread so far was n't UDers grinding xvarts, but people pvp-baiting. And all those "anti-xp measures" do nothing to address this issue.

[Khazrak]

Nothing mentioned is harmful. Feel free to explain how it is.

It'll lock UD in the box, cut off all UD<->Surface interactions and slowly kill off UD population completely.

"Majority" is not a very good argument. See, you can ALWAYS pick server population, split it into "majority" and "minority", then remove content used by minority, making them leave. Do that enough time, and you'll reduce population to 1 player.

Basically "Majority wants it" is not a good reason to dismiss minority.

They said that in response to you saying...

Majority of it is harmful, so might as well remove Surface instead.

Which is far more absurd than proposing travel between UD and Surface be cut off.

Not weighing in any opinion here, but I felt this was worth pointing out.

[Laughingman]

I'll repeat myself by saying this, but can you possibly imagine a drow that was grinding at the surface (!), got killed by a paladin, just stood up and continued his grind marathon?

That is what usually happens. The drow is defeated then continues to seek PvP for the rest of the day on the surface. They are level 32 after all and unlikely to be defeated again. The only thing is it's not a "paladin" but whatever epic characters are sick of hearing level 10's talk about drow killing everyone.

[NegInfinity]

I'll repeat myself by saying this, but can you possibly imagine a drow that was grinding at the surface (!), got killed by a paladin, just stood up and continued his grind marathon?

That is what usually happens. The drow is defeated then continues to seek PvP for the rest of the day on the surface. They are level 32 after all and unlikely to be defeated again. The only thing is it's not a "paladin" but whatever epic characters are sick of hearing level 10's talk about drow killing everyone.

You know, what would ACTUALLY make sense rather than shooting xp down for everybody is to either add ability for pvp winner to send defaeated people home, OR shut down xp after being killed by a surfacer till the server reset.

Also... I'd like to point out that I've only seen surface drow twice this year. None were pvp-baiting.