Open question to team evil/morally questionable

[Rinzler]

So. To finally post a genuine in depth opinion.

+1 - Agreed on all fronts.

[Rain]

As an example, the Day the Dead are most with us, AKA the Feast of the Moon, is a holiday not just celebrated by Myrkulites, despite it's special significance to them, but by everyone in Faerun. It's the Faerunian equivalent to Dia de los Muertos or Halloween and happens on the last night of Uktar and carries into the first morning of Nightal. This bizarre separation of the world into good places and evil places and good culture and evil culture each in a state of perpetual total war with the other is not just toxic to the game, but just plain weird from a lore perspective where you'd get good and evil people united by country or city even if they didn't much like each other personally. The fact that we have this sharp divide between good vs evil, rather than say, Amnian vs Baldurian PC's is.... at least personally, bizarre.

Let's not mention that the holiday celebration for such a thing was ultimately disturbed in the middle of it's rites and rituals in the Undercity. Not only disturbed but was straight up turned and burned into hostility the day of... Which if this was canon would be a HUGE problem for everyone there. You essentially took a day where Myrkul is expecting celebrations and festivities to his name and his dogma and you disgraced it not only by disturbing the ceremony but attacking everyone there. I was baffled the DM even allowed that to happen the first place. But i'm always someone who rolls with the punches and always will, I just found that totally unjustified that Myrkul (Who even showed up as an avatar after everything happened) just watched.

Mind you if evil EVER decided to just defile anyone elses celebration (especially on a festive holiday dedicated to a god or gods event) they had planned, there would be so much backlash it wouldn't even be funny. Take that as you will.

[Anrilor]

The very first thing the radiant heart did after the dust settled in the Undercity battle was try to RP cutting off the heads of every fallen Myrkulite, to prevent resurrection, to the point where the DM had to tell them to cut it out because they were interrupting him. Some years ago, when by happenstance a red wizard was downed by event creatures in the cloakwood, the Radiant Hearts response was 'Aha! Now we have the foul evil doer, let's take his corpse to Baldur's gate to be turned in to the fist to get destroyed.'

This is a bold face LIE I was there for that event, there was no such thing attempted, the only thing the Radiant heart member tried to do, was to REMOVE YOUR MASKS SO YOU COULD BE IDENTIFIED.

[11:33] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>The battle is pitched, and the sworn warriors of Baldur's Gate go to do battle with those of Batibat's Church, each convinced of their our righteousness in their cause.
[11:33] [Enginseer-42] Andrew Idd: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//Batibat apparently teleported to the fields of the dead for a backup plan?
[11:33] [Hoital] Oth Neren: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//*sees all the set friendly notices and feels all warm and fuzzy*
[11:34] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>The warriors of the Gate clashed blades with living and dead alike, a flurry of spells and steel filling a panic inducing few minutes, filled with blood.
[11:34] [WinterborneTE] Mercy's Blade Nathan Goldenmane: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>/// I'd be surprised if she could cast a teleport with Morurene having the place locked down. . .
[11:36] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>The priestess of Sune fell at the hands of Hanner Blackrose, tricked by his cunning into falling into deadly traps strewn throughout the temple floors.
[11:37] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>Lord Wandersoul's deadly aim with his crossbow struck the enemy mage in the shoulder, causing his spells to fizzle and for him to bleed out steadily against the stone walls.
[11:38] [Server]: [ServerTell] Thomas Garlendt / Party / <C=#00BFFF>He mutters a prayer to Torm to himself, as he puts his helmet back on, letting out a few more coughs.</C>
[11:39] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>Friends and foes alike lie strewn throughout the temple floors, their blood filling the crevices.
[11:39] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>Batibat lies on the ground, her own lifeblood spilling out of her.
[11:40] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>The remaining warriors of the Gate stand before her, battered but unbowed.
[11:40] [Oarthias] Vanira: [Talk] <C=#00BFFF>Vani goes around .. removing masks ... and memroizing faces.</C>
[11:41] [Enginseer-42] Andrew Idd: [Talk] <C=#00BFFF>Wasn't even wearing a mask.</C>
[11:41] [Hoital] Oth Neren: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//Don't peel faces off, Vani
[11:41] [Hoital] Oth Neren: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//Its rude
[11:41] [Gingko] Amelia Revenolt: [Talk] <C=#00BFFF>Watches Vanira stare at faces before looking around the room</C>
[11:41] [Oarthias] Vanira: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>// dm said I can't

Oth was making an OOC joke because you said you were not wearing a mask.

That is not decapitation, that is discovery of who the enemies are. What I assumed was to happen before the aspect showed up, was that we were going to turn you over to the Fist, because Eltan (DM) rallied the Security Council, and told us to stop it before Batibat became to powerful to stop. being turned over to the Fist, would allow the DM to decide your fates, he chose to have an aspect save you so you all wouldn't face permakill. we accepted that.

Please don't lie, it lowers yourselves and your arguments

EDIT: not only that, but we were asked, after fighting through several dozen tough undead, and an undead evil dragon that took out three people, we agreed to the terms that were put forth by Batibat's side.

[11:03] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((Ok guys, they've decided to PvP))
[11:04] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((But I'm going to bench those of you who fell to the shadow wyrm))
[11:04] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((Is that cool?))
[11:06] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((If that's not ok, I can do NPCs with them.))
[11:06] [Anrilor] Alyssia Leonhart: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//its fine
[11:06] [LivTempleton] Elle' Avery: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//would it be up to those who are benched
[11:07] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((No, either way they wouldn't be PvP'ing.))
[11:07] [LivTempleton] Elle' Avery: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//oh right
[11:07] [LivTempleton] Elle' Avery: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//misread
[11:07] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((Once you're all ready, head on in!))
[11:08] [sweetlikesplenda] Lord Aaron Lyonaler: [Talk] <C=#00BFFF>Appearently is resting with some of the other wounded Flaming Fist soldiers</C>

We benched 3 players before that fight, all frontline melee people, one of which was a FvS with more spells ready.

[Hoihe]

And lastly, in connection to the first issue. The difference in risk is also coupled with a difference in Attitude. Earlier in this thread, Hoihe and Ashenie made a point about player vs player, and how it seemed to them that evil PC's were eager for permakills.

The very first thing the radiant heart did after the dust settled in the Undercity battle was try to RP cutting off the heads of every fallen Myrkulite, to prevent resurrection, to the point where the DM had to tell them to cut it out because they were interrupting him. Some years ago, when by happenstance a red wizard was downed by event creatures in the cloakwood, the Radiant Hearts response was 'Aha! Now we have the foul evil doer, let's take his corpse to Baldur's gate to be turned in to the fist to get destroyed.'

The threat of being permakilled by do-gooders is a constant weight on peoples minds on the villainous side of the fence.

While not every interaction I have seen between villain and hero has been bloodthirsty on the heroes part, I have seen far more OOC courtesy and respect for the concept of friendly PVP from villains towards my characters, villain, hero, or otherwise, than I have ever seen from goodly heroic characters. And a lot more hunger for permakills from heroes than I have from villains.

I've been making an effort not to reply to some earlier posts that mentioned perma in ways I disagree with, as I did not want to derail the topic. However, as I was mentioned, I hope it is alright to offer a reply/my perspective on the events that occured.

I have thankfully not been on the receiving end of Good seeking permakills, but then the last I played evil was a crazy ice wizard in the UD 7 years ago. Despite this, I do strongly believe what was said have happened, and may likely happen again.

And so, I want to reiterate my own thesis I have been saying for a good while: I do not believe any action, any circumstance should inflict permadeath, or injuries you cannot heal with a Regenerate or Gr. Restoration spell. And until this ideal is achieved, I believe it the most sacred duty of the winner or the DM to ensure their victim does not suffer unhealable injuries or a permastrike, unless the receipent actively desires a result. So! Ideally, beheading/burning bodies would be inconsequential - the dead will get True Res'd off screen or on screen (depending if they got a PC cleric buddy or not) within a week at most. Further, getting executed by the Dukes would be the same death as dying to a bunch of fire giants when you lagged a little. And, if this is not possible (like in earlier examples) then it's on the winner/DM to allow for potential ways for the other party or parties to escape without such consequences, so they are able to choose if they wish for long lasting consequences, whatever form that may take, or if they are able to barely get away.

While I stay out of conflict RP these days for the reasons cited in the earlier post, if I were to win a PvP battle against an evil PC in a way I can't justify letting them run away? I'd say the most ethical choice would be, which I'd do, would be to RP stabbing them in the heart with my rapier, then clarify either in the emote or OOC that the strike missed the heart, and merely sent them into shock that allows me to leave the area thinking they died before they recover (ergo: -9 HP, fort save passed, slowly wakes up with an injury that a Heal potion should fix without any lasting mark beyond upon pride). Or, something similar. I believe the winners of the Undercity should have acted in such a way.

For what it's worth, In the guilds I am a member of, I've always made an effort to OOCly oppose fellow guild members who wanted to inflict permadeath or lasting injury on another character.

[DaloLorn]

I also don't see how decapitation would even prevent resurrection in the first place. It would prevent raising the dead, but any stronger spell (including, you know, Resurrection ) would power through it just fine.

That being said, I do see where Enginseer is coming from:

The threat of being permakilled by do-gooders is a constant weight on peoples minds on the villainous side of the fence.

While not every interaction I have seen between villain and hero has been bloodthirsty on the heroes part, I have seen far more OOC courtesy and respect for the concept of friendly PVP from villains towards my characters, villain, hero, or otherwise, than I have ever seen from goodly heroic characters. And a lot more hunger for permakills from heroes than I have from villains.

Perhaps my fears have been unjustified - Rinn's death at the hands of the Second Dawn was certainly not permanent, though I nearly made it so due to the probability of IC complications like the corpse getting eaten by bears or being identified as a murderer before anyone could get around to raising her - but I've definitely always been several orders of magnitude more careful about death on my villains than my heroes.

An overt villain has very few IC ways of being brought back to life if all their actual, honest-to-god allies are dead (if they even have any). Batibat needed divine intervention. I don't even fully understand the IC justification behind the actions of whoever raised Rinn (and neither does she! ), though I've become OOCly aware of their identity. Most of the time, we have to assume that, as Tiberius put it after killing Rinn, "death is on vacation" on the Sword Coast, and handwave our way back to life. This is not a typical issue the good guys have to deal with... not that it's an issue either side typically considers when killing each other.

Most other character types will get raised almost as a matter of inevitability unless either their corpse is too far out of the way to ever be discovered, or they receive some variation of the Kubota treatment (which the Second Dawn consciously refused to do with Rinn). I've actually flat-out told Rinn's victims I was fine with them getting raised offscreen (and even Resurrected/Regenerated offscreen, in those instances in which she'd mutilated them) by NPCs if they wanted to, because it would probably happen eventually, and not everyone's into RPing a corpse or a cripple. (Not that my consent was strictly necessary for them to do so, but still, I thought it was a good idea to explicitly put the option on the table.)

[Rain]

The very first thing the radiant heart did after the dust settled in the Undercity battle was try to RP cutting off the heads of every fallen Myrkulite, to prevent resurrection, to the point where the DM had to tell them to cut it out because they were interrupting him. Some years ago, when by happenstance a red wizard was downed by event creatures in the cloakwood, the Radiant Hearts response was 'Aha! Now we have the foul evil doer, let's take his corpse to Baldur's gate to be turned in to the fist to get destroyed.'

This is a bold face LIE I was there for that event, there was no such thing attempted, the only thing the Radiant heart member tried to do, was to REMOVE YOUR MASKS SO YOU COULD BE IDENTIFIED.

[11:33] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>The battle is pitched, and the sworn warriors of Baldur's Gate go to do battle with those of Batibat's Church, each convinced of their our righteousness in their cause.
[11:33] [Enginseer-42] Andrew Idd: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//Batibat apparently teleported to the fields of the dead for a backup plan?
[11:33] [Hoital] Oth Neren: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//*sees all the set friendly notices and feels all warm and fuzzy*
[11:34] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>The warriors of the Gate clashed blades with living and dead alike, a flurry of spells and steel filling a panic inducing few minutes, filled with blood.
[11:34] [WinterborneTE] Mercy's Blade Nathan Goldenmane: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>/// I'd be surprised if she could cast a teleport with Morurene having the place locked down. . .
[11:36] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>The priestess of Sune fell at the hands of Hanner Blackrose, tricked by his cunning into falling into deadly traps strewn throughout the temple floors.
[11:37] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>Lord Wandersoul's deadly aim with his crossbow struck the enemy mage in the shoulder, causing his spells to fizzle and for him to bleed out steadily against the stone walls.
[11:38] [Server]: [ServerTell] Thomas Garlendt / Party / <C=#00BFFF>He mutters a prayer to Torm to himself, as he puts his helmet back on, letting out a few more coughs.</C>
[11:39] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>Friends and foes alike lie strewn throughout the temple floors, their blood filling the crevices.
[11:39] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>Batibat lies on the ground, her own lifeblood spilling out of her.
[11:40] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>The remaining warriors of the Gate stand before her, battered but unbowed.
[11:40] [Oarthias] Vanira: [Talk] <C=#00BFFF>Vani goes around .. removing masks ... and memroizing faces.</C>
[11:41] [Enginseer-42] Andrew Idd: [Talk] <C=#00BFFF>Wasn't even wearing a mask.</C>
[11:41] [Hoital] Oth Neren: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//Don't peel faces off, Vani
[11:41] [Hoital] Oth Neren: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//Its rude
[11:41] [Gingko] Amelia Revenolt: [Talk] <C=#00BFFF>Watches Vanira stare at faces before looking around the room</C>
[11:41] [Oarthias] Vanira: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>// dm said I can't

Oth was making an OOC joke because you said you were not wearing a mask.

That is not decapitation, that is discovery of who the enemies are. What I assumed was to happen before the aspect showed up, was that we were going to turn you over to the Fist, because Eltan (DM) rallied the Security Council, and told us to stop it before Batibat became to powerful to stop. being turned over to the Fist, would allow the DM to decide your fates, he chose to have an aspect save you so you all wouldn't face permakill. we accepted that.

Please don't lie, it lowers yourselves and your arguments

EDIT: not only that, but we were asked, after fighting through several dozen tough undead, and an undead evil dragon that took out three people, we agreed to the terms that were put forth by Batibat's side.

[11:03] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((Ok guys, they've decided to PvP))
[11:04] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((But I'm going to bench those of you who fell to the shadow wyrm))
[11:04] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((Is that cool?))
[11:06] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((If that's not ok, I can do NPCs with them.))
[11:06] [Anrilor] Alyssia Leonhart: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//its fine
[11:06] [LivTempleton] Elle' Avery: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//would it be up to those who are benched
[11:07] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((No, either way they wouldn't be PvP'ing.))
[11:07] [LivTempleton] Elle' Avery: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//oh right
[11:07] [LivTempleton] Elle' Avery: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//misread
[11:07] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((Once you're all ready, head on in!))
[11:08] [sweetlikesplenda] Lord Aaron Lyonaler: [Talk] <C=#00BFFF>Appearently is resting with some of the other wounded Flaming Fist soldiers</C>

We benched 3 players before that fight, all frontline melee people, one of which was a FvS with more spells ready.

I have to agree here I don't remember any beheadings being offered or carried out for this, An is telling the truth and my logs show the same. The teleportation was a werid prospective of that event because bati placed a teleportation circle way before the fight, used the last cast to use it, and afterward was told nothing from the DM other then "come back". Despite there being a back-up plan which involved an outside agent who was waiting at the fields of the dead.

Just to clarify however, there is no hate or bitterness at how the event ended. I was confused at some points and frustrated at others but in the end I found it a reason to just do my own thing which I have been doing ever since the conclusion. And i'm glad I did because i'm now relearning alot about the NWNtoolset for all sorts of things aside from the DM client.

[LivT]

The very first thing the radiant heart did after the dust settled in the Undercity battle was try to RP cutting off the heads of every fallen Myrkulite, to prevent resurrection, to the point where the DM had to tell them to cut it out because they were interrupting him. Some years ago, when by happenstance a red wizard was downed by event creatures in the cloakwood, the Radiant Hearts response was 'Aha! Now we have the foul evil doer, let's take his corpse to Baldur's gate to be turned in to the fist to get destroyed.'

Why make up something like this, especially when it is going to be so easily proved to be untrue? It’s only going to undercut and devalue your actual grievances.

[enginseer-42]

The very first thing the radiant heart did after the dust settled in the Undercity battle was try to RP cutting off the heads of every fallen Myrkulite, to prevent resurrection, to the point where the DM had to tell them to cut it out because they were interrupting him. Some years ago, when by happenstance a red wizard was downed by event creatures in the cloakwood, the Radiant Hearts response was 'Aha! Now we have the foul evil doer, let's take his corpse to Baldur's gate to be turned in to the fist to get destroyed.'

This is a bold face LIE I was there for that event, there was no such thing attempted, the only thing the Radiant heart member tried to do, was to REMOVE YOUR MASKS SO YOU COULD BE IDENTIFIED.

[11:33] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>The battle is pitched, and the sworn warriors of Baldur's Gate go to do battle with those of Batibat's Church, each convinced of their our righteousness in their cause.
[11:33] [Enginseer-42] Andrew Idd: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//Batibat apparently teleported to the fields of the dead for a backup plan?
[11:33] [Hoital] Oth Neren: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//*sees all the set friendly notices and feels all warm and fuzzy*
[11:34] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>The warriors of the Gate clashed blades with living and dead alike, a flurry of spells and steel filling a panic inducing few minutes, filled with blood.
[11:34] [WinterborneTE] Mercy's Blade Nathan Goldenmane: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>/// I'd be surprised if she could cast a teleport with Morurene having the place locked down. . .
[11:36] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>The priestess of Sune fell at the hands of Hanner Blackrose, tricked by his cunning into falling into deadly traps strewn throughout the temple floors.
[11:37] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>Lord Wandersoul's deadly aim with his crossbow struck the enemy mage in the shoulder, causing his spells to fizzle and for him to bleed out steadily against the stone walls.
[11:38] [Server]: [ServerTell] Thomas Garlendt / Party / <C=#00BFFF>He mutters a prayer to Torm to himself, as he puts his helmet back on, letting out a few more coughs.</C>
[11:39] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>Friends and foes alike lie strewn throughout the temple floors, their blood filling the crevices.
[11:39] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>Batibat lies on the ground, her own lifeblood spilling out of her.
[11:40] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] <I>The remaining warriors of the Gate stand before her, battered but unbowed.
[11:40] [Oarthias] Vanira: [Talk] <C=#00BFFF>Vani goes around .. removing masks ... and memroizing faces.</C>
[11:41] [Enginseer-42] Andrew Idd: [Talk] <C=#00BFFF>Wasn't even wearing a mask.</C>
[11:41] [Hoital] Oth Neren: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//Don't peel faces off, Vani
[11:41] [Hoital] Oth Neren: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//Its rude
[11:41] [Gingko] Amelia Revenolt: [Talk] <C=#00BFFF>Watches Vanira stare at faces before looking around the room</C>
[11:41] [Oarthias] Vanira: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>// dm said I can't

Oth was making an OOC joke because you said you were not wearing a mask.

That is not decapitation, that is discovery of who the enemies are. What I assumed was to happen before the aspect showed up, was that we were going to turn you over to the Fist, because Eltan (DM) rallied the Security Council, and told us to stop it before Batibat became to powerful to stop. being turned over to the Fist, would allow the DM to decide your fates, he chose to have an aspect save you so you all wouldn't face permakill. we accepted that.

Please don't lie, it lowers yourselves and your arguments

EDIT: not only that, but we were asked, after fighting through several dozen tough undead, and an undead evil dragon that took out three people, we agreed to the terms that were put forth by Batibat's side.

[11:03] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((Ok guys, they've decided to PvP))
[11:04] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((But I'm going to bench those of you who fell to the shadow wyrm))
[11:04] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((Is that cool?))
[11:06] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((If that's not ok, I can do NPCs with them.))
[11:06] [Anrilor] Alyssia Leonhart: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//its fine
[11:06] [LivTempleton] Elle' Avery: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//would it be up to those who are benched
[11:07] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((No, either way they wouldn't be PvP'ing.))
[11:07] [LivTempleton] Elle' Avery: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//oh right
[11:07] [LivTempleton] Elle' Avery: [Talk] <C=#66CC66>//misread
[11:07] [Peridan Night] [DM] Grinning Death: [Talk] ((Once you're all ready, head on in!))
[11:08] [sweetlikesplenda] Lord Aaron Lyonaler: [Talk] <C=#00BFFF>Appearently is resting with some of the other wounded Flaming Fist soldiers</C>

We benched 3 players before that fight, all frontline melee people, one of which was a FvS with more spells ready.

Those logs are after. Batibat wasn't there for it, because she had teleported away. I'm talking about in the immediate chaos of the battles conclusion before grinning death began narrating. I'll try to look for logs but I've never messed with logs before.

As for the benching 3 players thing... Yeah. They died. You also still brought more people to the fight then us, and won with a single loss and the remainder of you basically being untouched.

[Rhifox]

Quibbling and casting accusations over the details of specific events and their aftermaths is beyond the topic of this thread. If it continues, expect moderation.

[EasternCheesE]

Hidden: show

The very first thing the radiant heart did after the dust settled in the Undercity battle was try to RP cutting off the heads of every fallen Myrkulite, to prevent resurrection, to the point where the DM had to tell them to cut it out because they were interrupting him. Some years ago, when by happenstance a red wizard was downed by event creatures in the cloakwood, the Radiant Hearts response was 'Aha! Now we have the foul evil doer, let's take his corpse to Baldur's gate to be turned in to the fist to get destroyed.'

Why make up something like this, especially when it is going to be so easily proved to be untrue? It’s only going to undercut and devalue your actual grievances.

Soryy, he's not making up anything. There was a player RPing they behead our downed PCs immediately after fight ended.
That was at 19:26 my time, GMT +3 (or +2, i don't remember was our time adjusted already). You can easily find reference in your logs if you were there from the beginning to the end and near our PCs to be able to hear that line of text. I won't provide player/PC name not to gaslight this further, but such attempt was made and was ignored by DM (or ovewritten, i don't recollect exactly) which lead to events going as they went.

There were things i didn't like about that fight, thus i sent DM the list of things i found good and what i see needs some thinking about and more preparations to make things fair. Yes, we were weaker, but we decided to face players instead of NPCs ourselves, nobody forced us to it. Thus, while i have my few issues with team good actions before/after the fight, none of them are related to fact we got stomped upon during PvP event. This part is just us overestimating our powers and few flaws from battle ruling from DM side.
I hope we all learn something from it and next similar event goes in more funny and pleasant way to both sides.

[eternal night]

As an example, the Day the Dead are most with us, AKA the Feast of the Moon, is a holiday not just celebrated by Myrkulites, despite it's special significance to them, but by everyone in Faerun. It's the Faerunian equivalent to Dia de los Muertos or Halloween and happens on the last night of Uktar and carries into the first morning of Nightal. This bizarre separation of the world into good places and evil places and good culture and evil culture each in a state of perpetual total war with the other is not just toxic to the game, but just plain weird from a lore perspective where you'd get good and evil people united by country or city even if they didn't much like each other personally. The fact that we have this sharp divide between good vs evil, rather than say, Amnian vs Baldurian PC's is.... at least personally, bizarre.

Let's not mention that the holiday celebration for such a thing was ultimately disturbed in the middle of it's rites and rituals in the Undercity. Not only disturbed but was straight up turned and burned into hostility the day of... Which if this was canon would be a HUGE problem for everyone there. You essentially took a day where Myrkul is expecting celebrations and festivities to his name and his dogma and you disgraced it not only by disturbing the ceremony but attacking everyone there. I was baffled the DM even allowed that to happen the first place. But i'm always someone who rolls with the punches and always will, I just found that totally unjustified that Myrkul (Who even showed up as an avatar after everything happened) just watched.

Mind you if evil EVER decided to just defile anyone elses celebration (especially on a festive holiday dedicated to a god or gods event) they had planned, there would be so much backlash it wouldn't even be funny. Take that as you will.

I don't want to start a back and fort or tell you are wrong, but Batibat too attacked a few shrines and temples before and I am not sure what repercussions were had but I refer specifically to attacking with skeletons the shrine of Sylvanus and even killing the archdruid at the time. And you were given several victories before and after that.

If you expect the avatar to go defend their place everytime then you should asked for the avatar of Sylvannus to battle when Batibat attacked that shrine.

And the druids even rp'd the damage Batibat did.

[Rain]

As an example, the Day the Dead are most with us, AKA the Feast of the Moon, is a holiday not just celebrated by Myrkulites, despite it's special significance to them, but by everyone in Faerun. It's the Faerunian equivalent to Dia de los Muertos or Halloween and happens on the last night of Uktar and carries into the first morning of Nightal. This bizarre separation of the world into good places and evil places and good culture and evil culture each in a state of perpetual total war with the other is not just toxic to the game, but just plain weird from a lore perspective where you'd get good and evil people united by country or city even if they didn't much like each other personally. The fact that we have this sharp divide between good vs evil, rather than say, Amnian vs Baldurian PC's is.... at least personally, bizarre.

Let's not mention that the holiday celebration for such a thing was ultimately disturbed in the middle of it's rites and rituals in the Undercity. Not only disturbed but was straight up turned and burned into hostility the day of... Which if this was canon would be a HUGE problem for everyone there. You essentially took a day where Myrkul is expecting celebrations and festivities to his name and his dogma and you disgraced it not only by disturbing the ceremony but attacking everyone there. I was baffled the DM even allowed that to happen the first place. But i'm always someone who rolls with the punches and always will, I just found that totally unjustified that Myrkul (Who even showed up as an avatar after everything happened) just watched.

Mind you if evil EVER decided to just defile anyone elses celebration (especially on a festive holiday dedicated to a god or gods event) they had planned, there would be so much backlash it wouldn't even be funny. Take that as you will.

I don't want to start a back and fort or tell you are wrong, but Batibat too attacked a few shrines and temples before and I am not sure what repercussions were had but I refer specifically to attacking with skeletons the shrine of Sylvanus and even killing the archdruid at the time. And you were given several victories before and after that.

If you expect the avatar to go defend their place everytime then you should asked for the avatar of Sylvannus to battle when Batibat attacked that shrine.

And the druids even rp'd the damage Batibat did.

In this instance im specifically talking about player made events and holidays not just some random day at a shrine. Hostile take-over and attacks are one thing. Attacking someone during their event and a holiday event set in faerun time is another.

Edit: To that point I can comfortably say I have never done that because I respect the time and effort people put in to planning their social gatherings IC and OOC.

[Tekill]

Bold face lie?
I always thought it was Bald face lie!
I can see how bold face would make more sense...
...Why do you have to be so clean shaven to tell such fibs!!

I used to wonder why people (including myself at times) would get so angry in certain pvp situations.
I think it is because we are trying to express ourselves in a creative way by RPing. Doing so makes us a bit vulnerable, and therefor defensive when our toes get smushed on.

Way back at the beginning (starting as far back as NWN1) PVP'ers used to oppress RP'ers with their bullying PVP ways.
Then the various communities got together to stop the pvp griefers and started repressing certain aspects of the game. Mainly PVP and Conflict RP, which traditionally was anything considered evil RP.

Player initiated conflict is frowned upon unless DM sanctioned or DM initiated. You are welcome to be evil or you are welcome to try and cause conflict. But know that you will be neglected while other non conflict orientated groups will be fostered.

Evil was suppressed to the point it now can not survive on its own. It creates a linear, systematic routine of team good waiting for a team evil to poke its head up. Where upon team good as quickly and efficiently as possible deals with team evil, like it was some sort of menial task, like taking out the garbage.

Without PVP and more importantly player conflict, over time this repression has turned the server from an Action RP server to a Social RP server.

Some people want to just socialize, and to get along. But to me it is like a novel with just characters, no story no plot- just characters.

I mean I like hanging out with you all. You guys are a lot of fun!
I enjoy me some campfire RP. I like doing exp/loot runs with with players. I like creating new builds and different personalities for my characters. I like trying to support other players factions.

I also hear that the Admin or DMs are aware of the situation and plan on letting up on this repression a bit. I hear they have great plans!
You know. Might be promising.

I still would not recommend anyone trying to RP an evil toon.
Oh and fair warning- My drow is coming for yahs!!!

[Zar'shalee]

"Team evil" not getting enough opportunities to shine is not only BGTSCC case. Other PWs are having the same problems pretty much (at least from my experience).

I can say my piece only from POV of strict Underdark, drow player. I've joined BG in like 2015 and even back then whole relationship between surface x UD was pretty much the same as it is today. Meaning: "You drow stay in Underdark, You surfacers stay on surface, but you can visit Sshamath anytime you want without any backlash, all you need to do is to say that you are there for "trade" and boom, you are pretty much immune to any hostile behaviour from drow side backed up and protected by meta guards"

Someone here already said that Sshamath is pretty much "safe enviroment" not only for drow but also for pretty much any outsider. You can have group of Radiant Heart paladins visiting it safely like some kind of safari. This overall feel of safety and "friendliness" is also not really helping to organize a bit more evil and Lolth-centric drow. "PG 13" rule set is also not helping it either. I can also honestly say that making sacral ritual where you are suppose to carve someone's heart out (among other sacrificial techniques) is not easy and certainly lacking that dark beauty and excitement drow should bear. Same goes for "no PCs as slaves" and basically no slaves in general aside of some bestial races. Allow players to play dedicated slave characters.

Sshamath is suppose to be ruled by Conclave. At the same time nobody knows what is Conclave doing or thinking or even who are it's members. Another "Deus Ex machina" RP body which is there only to remind people that DMs and Admins are in control.

When you keep adding all this on top of each other, soon you will realize that there is not really much to do for Underdark folk. Not in terms of content wise, but in terms of RP and pitching out new RP ideas and approaches. Yes, if you want to RP neutral drow merchant, you will do just fine. But for someone like Lolthites or ambitious evil political plotters? Absolutely no chance to pitch some new ideas which could snowball other characters with it on whole new course and possibly change the city forever.

Issue of people "not-maining" evil characters is true and some of it's reasons (and probably many more) are listed above. Only natural for people go there where they see potential fun and opportunity to shine and fulfil their ambitions.

Solutions for this? Many and not easily listed. Could be from easing down on some old rules or making whole rule set more streamlined (lets not kid outselves, it is massive and very complex), from giving players more freedom and turn players from "bystanders adventurers" into those who will directly participate, change and evolve main storylines. Trust your player base more, that counts for players as well not only for admins.
Here a bit of brainstorming: Let them rule in some degree. Make new outpost system into more "core" mechanic of the game. Make it more deeper, meaningful and political. Let outpost to have their own assigned piece of land which could generate resources (could be physical items or just text/number-based) different for each outpost, let player factions trade or even force trade those resources with one another in order to grow. Let those resources be used for upgrading those outposts/production/industry/troops/etc. Or simply let players to trade those resources with major cities, earning them positions of importance, noble titles, etc. Basically not only giving those players long-term goal to work towards. But also making those goals so they create large potential for player interactions and even forced-interactions.

That's it from me at this point.

[whatsittoya]

Is it actually a problem for a good-aligned character to not want to seriously socially engage with someone they know to be evil (or even just reasonably assume to be evil or at least creepy, based on hard data such as the number of severed fingers and ears someone happens to be wearing as a necklace, overt evil deity iconography, being covered in fresh blood and hairy scalps, and/or being witnessed kicking puppies)?

That's as much a question as a statement, in response to the number of comments regarding the goodies packing up their things and leaving the fire circle when the baddies come to sit down.

From an IC perspective, not engaging with someone who egregiously violates your morals is just being sensible (with the notable and likely singular exception of attempted redemption arcs). I certainly wouldn't expect evil characters to be super happy to entertain my good characters either.