Death exp condensed

[Catam]

Ultimately, penalties are more for our benefit than the players. A player can definately learn a lesson about being careful about death but I really could care less how a player wants to rp xp loss, my priority is that if the conditions are met xp is removed from the system until it is regained, giving us time to distribute content that makes leveling meaningful and significant to the player character.

In a system like this players realize the significance that death has. It is the one thing they ultimately avoid. Not something they would gloss over in their journey and development. Otherwise... it is just a game system... lessened for those that do not appreciate the story.

[MercTroop]

Power builders exist no matter what system is used. They exist in the most harsh servers where you get 10 exp a kill and lose 1k exp a death. Most power builders who focus on leveling enjoy the grind, I have not seen as many grinders here as I did at my last server. Last server I was on 14-20 experience was seen as good, and death penalty resulted in a player losing thousands of experience. There were allot of grinders who just logged in to do that.

I never under stood why DM's would get mad at people who only grind, if you set the system like that so that every one has to grind any way. It's not like people grinding all the time were hurting people, most of the time I bothered to interact with them they had some interesting things to say.

There are two main groups of RPers. One type I describe as socialites, people who spend vast majority of game time chatting. It really makes me mad when DM's call these people true rpers or having superior RP. Or give them more attention than other people. These are people most likely not to care about exp penalties.

Then there are action rpers, which I would consider my self part of. People who are following idea of a character going out exploring the lands, killing dangerous beasts, interacting with party members. Where we want to experience stories told in books like legend of the seeker, or games like the witcher. Action Rpers are more likely to say some thing about exp penalties because it has an effect on us.

Saying RPers tend not to care is not accurate. Easily one of best RPers I've ever met was a wood elf ranger (no multiclass just pure ranger) on another server, who after he got to max level did nothing but patrol surface wood lands for limited amount of time he was on. Never once did I ever seen him stand around a town square to chit chat. He made a point to do any character to character interaction in the woods, if you wanted to talk to him you had to do so in the woods. He stayed true to feel and theme of his character to the end.

As a gamer I do not merely see Nwn2 servers, I look at servers comparing them to whats happening in gaming as a whole. In my mind I try to break down the design choices each server has, what they may try to be achieving. Hence reason I can cite pay to play MMO's easily in comparisons because at the core allot of Nwn2 servers are little more than MMO's.

I've played on permadeath servers they are by far what I consider a joke. Content they provide does not match harshness and penalties they are asking for. Playing d2 on hardcore mode has more story, immersion, and fun than a perma death nwn2 server. It shouldn't be any wonder why they are not the most popular type of servers in nwn2.

This server has been around for so long, we should not be having issues of content.

If this server has content issues its because the developers are getting too divide in time. We have underdark and the surface. They have to divert time equally between the two.

I don't think I've ever seen a content complaint come from servers that only have one faction they focus on. Content complaint excuse seems rather common among servers with dual player factions.

Basically your hoping that some one dies, is not in a party, and no one passes by to resurrect them. Which disregard for death is a common hot topic. If some one takes their time remains patience to never die, intent of experience loss on death has failed to do its job.

Why even gamble that people might die, just remove exp penalty and adjust the experience rates of experience gained. That way you can build a character progression time line and see how fast people level up.

There are a few other ideas off the top of my head that would be more logical than death experience if the idea is to delay players.

Saying you don't care how people RP experience loss, makes it sound like you want people to get punished for the sake punishment. People might take a coffee break with my idea, or they might go to the tavern start RPing and keep rping way past the death recovery time. Choice is still left with the player where they want to RP and how they want to RP.

Experience loss no body ever RPs, which entire point for having in first place has nothing to do with RP and has flawed reasoning behind it. In the end you can get past entire point of experience penalty by not dying, or being patient.

Or stat debuff that every one who is about RP will RP. Will most likely force people to take logical actions, like going back and resting a little bit, or being extremely careful if they push on with the rest of a party.

Only reason experience penalty on death is popular in nwn2 RP servers is because they are trying to become MMO's. In a MMO experience represents player time, if a player loses experience they have to invest more time in the server. It's a pretty clever system.

As each "RP" server cropped up, they copied the ones that had come before that had copied this MMO model. Few servers that tried to break the norm were plagued with issues like poor area design, stupid restrictions, and other issues that made playing on those servers less fun.

Players like Catam kind of proves a point that nwn2 player base has been fooled into thinking that experience loss is only legitimate death system there can be. Their views on nwn2 servers has gotten so broken that any innovation or imagination for some thing different is a laughable concept.

Edit: I will say this, if the server goal is truly Rp. Good RP is never the result of harsh restrictions, it is the result of providing lore and information to people. More knowledge people have the better they can RP, my example about wood elf above. He was able to RP his character well since he knew allot about wood elf culture, and how a ranger would perceive the world around him.

[Molag__Bal]

99% of the time that people have to take an xp hit for dying, they died while soloing. Almost everyone carries at least a raise dead scroll, and high level characters typically have resurrection wands or are divine spellcasters that can raise the dead. If you solo, you should know the risks and be willing to face the consequences.

[Leaf_Smoker]

Alright, I actually read this whole topic... Loooooooong.

Here is my piece regarding what I got out of the last 8 1/2 pages. Keep in mind that the following is my personal opinion and in no way reflects the opinion of other staff members or Official Policy of BG:TSCC. Also, no comment below is directed at any player, but at concepts mentioned in the previous pages.

The XP loss is in fact a "spanking", as it was put several times in here. You died, and you got spanked for it. It is a deterrent to death, plain and simple. If you don't want to get hit with the penalty, don't die. Now, I know it isn't always so easy to just not die, but there are certain steps you can take to minimize the probability of that occurrence. You can join up with other players, which promotes the RP you seem to be trying to further. You can go to a different area, and fight creatures with a lower CR. You can go to the campfire and RP there, like you say you would if you had that stat penalty on you. (Does it really take a stat penalty to get you to go there and RP instead of grind?) The point being, there are other options.

How do you RP the XP loss? You don't. We made that really simple for you. We don't de-level you with a death hit. You lose no abilities what-so-ever. No knowledge lost. Do you ever wait until half way through your new level to pick your feats and assign your skill points? No, you do that right when you level. So we can assume that your character learned these new skills at that mystical point when you advanced from one level to the next, and since we never take you back past that point, you never lose any knowledge. It would be a different story, and perhaps a legitimate concern regarding how to RP that loss of knowledge, if we did demote characters through the death system, but we don't. So this argument is straw man, meant to disrupt but containing no real merit. As to temporary amnesia regarding IC knowledge pertaining to other characters or situations, that is a different topic altogether and has no bearing on the death system. Once again, as far as the death system is concerned, there is never a loss of knowledge.

I don't see the big deal here. I die all the time on my toons, usually when I push too far out, or try something really stupid. I take the hit, learn from the experience, and move along. I look at it as I traded some of my characters experience to gain a little of my own. Now I know better than to do that.

RP will not increase if we take the XP penalty out of the game. RP will not increase if we implement a stat penalty, either by itself, or in conjunction with the XP penalty. A death penalty, by definition, is a deterrent to death. It is supposed to make the characters careful. It is supposed to make them want to group up, which consequently, does lead to RP. To remove any penalty at all will only increase the number of players that rush out to loot chests they could never get to normally. Sad, but true.

Why is XP loss a good penalty? Because you care about it, as proven by the presence of this topic. It's a good deterrent. It's something you don't want to lose. At the same time, it really isn't that hard to get back either.

-Leaf

[Blackbird]

Leaf, I think the idea was to pair the stat debuff with decreased debuff time "resting" in a tavern/inn to encourage more RP in these usually ridiculously empty buildings. So I think that has some merit regardless of the outlook on the current exp penalty.

[MercTroop]

Losing experience, and losing enough experience to delevel your self is effectively the same thing. Only difference is in the latter has additional mechanic ramifications on a PC. In either case your PC would still be losing experience which is knowledge. Just because in one case you can lose a level you should suddenly RP losing knowledge doesn't make sense.

There is nothing given evidence we have now, that losing levels would even make people RP losing knowledge. If any thing based on what people have said, if people could be deleveled through experience points the RP on death would remain at the same level it does now.

It's not a straw man argument because I've tried to point out issues with exp penalty from a RP perspective and a OOC perspective. Why changes to the system would be better from a RP perspective and a OOC perspective.

I wouldn't take this topic as XP loss is a good deterrent, since people are talking about it. Whole point to this topic and many pages was that it could be allot better than it is now. That with a change to how players were punished, could also include tools for how a PC Rps death.

People using the death system as a way to get to areas such as loot can be avoided by removing the ability for players to resurrect at their corpses. If a player dies and no one is there to raise them back to their body, then they would be forced to spawn in or near a town.

[Molag__Bal]

People using the death system as a way to get to areas such as loot can be avoided by removing the ability for players to resurrect at their corpses. If a player dies and no one is there to raise them back to their body, then they would be forced to spawn in or near a town.

I'm guessing you haven't played on this server for a while? The ability to respawn at your corpse was removed ages and ages back.

[MercTroop]

People using the death system as a way to get to areas such as loot can be avoided by removing the ability for players to resurrect at their corpses. If a player dies and no one is there to raise them back to their body, then they would be forced to spawn in or near a town.

I'm guessing you haven't played on this server for a while? The ability to respawn at your corpse was removed ages and ages back.

I don't die enough to talk to mykrul, when I do I'm usually resurrected by a party member. In fact I can't remember the last time I actually had to repsawn my self.

[Molag__Bal]

I don't die enough to talk to mykrul, when I do I'm usually resurrected by a party member. In fact I can't remember the last time I actually had to repsawn my self.

So why exactly are you spending so much time trying to propose a new death system? Clearly the current one has almost no impact on you whatsoever.

[Leaf_Smoker]

Honestly Merc, I don't see how changing the system would make people RP their deaths any different than they do now. Those players to whom it is important, already RP the death, and others don't. Having an XP loss or not won't effect that either way. The only ooc concern I have seen in here, is the standard "I lost xp, now I have to spend time grinding it back" argument.

The stat debuff, while being effective in mimicking the fatigue of the revival or the strain of combat, just isn't enough of a deterrent to running out and getting killed. It really does need to be something "harsh" to be effective. I can see us adding the stat debuff, if that is something the players would like in their game, but I can't see us removing the XP loss, as it is the only real deterrent we have to death.

I think that material components, and/or large sums of gold for raise and resurrection spells would also be a good way to go, so they aren't so common and people don't come to rely on them too much. Death is supposed to be a thing to be feared, and not taken lightly. If there is no real loss, then players tend to just not care.

That also helps your immersion, as it isn't very realistic for people to be unconcerned about death. And the fear of XP loss helps generate interest in grouping up, which leads to RP. If you make the penalty light, so that people don't care if they die, then you will actually hurt RP, not help it. I know that some people might not be able to get their heads around the concept, but there NEEDS to be real and lasting effect from dying, not just something that will go away after a short time, thus negating the death entirely. RP aside, it is an issue of module mechanics, it needs to be there. Which is why, as was stated earlier, everyone does it.

RP wise though, you know as well as anyone Merc, that those who want to, already do. Those that don't want to, can't be forced to no matter what you try to do to make them, so I don't see how the RP angle justifies removing the XP loss, just because some people won't RP it.

[stevebarracuda]

Differences:

PC dies= XP penalty (current system) = return to battle to regain XP.

PC dies = ability reduction for 10 RL minutes per PC level (proposed system) = hobble to inn/temple for rest/recovery (maybe institute Full Heal of abilities for 1k coin per level at temples, a money sink).

PC dies = XP penalty & ability reduction = log off in frustration???

Are there other/additional options to slow down a PC's leveling, as well as steer players into more RP-able circumstances that their p,ay style cant ignore?

If the goal of the server is as Void says, to limit PC leveling so that content can be developed to support the mass amounts of speedster progressions, then why not spend more time developing contents that has nothing to do with needing a certain CR to experience it?

In-game games? Puzzles? Team sports? Etc? Otherwise, the main theme of this server/game is still ADVENTURING, which is about surviving dangers to reap the rewards, and if death/dying isn't made more harsh--or irrelevant altogether--then players will continue to be dissatisfied, even if they an level to 30, whether in 2 months or 2 years.

[MercTroop]

I don't die enough to talk to mykrul, when I do I'm usually resurrected by a party member. In fact I can't remember the last time I actually had to repsawn my self.

So why exactly are you spending so much time trying to propose a new death system? Clearly the current one has almost no impact on you whatsoever.

Just because it has a minimal effect on me if I spend time being tedious and cautious to ensure my PC survival. That is just how I'am as a player, concept of dying allot annoys me regardless of the game. I will always try every thing with in my power to minimize or negate as many deaths as possible regardless of death consequence. It is reason why I will always place a higher emphasis on my character survival than that possibility of winning if odds look bad. That is also why I tend to not play PC's who would rather fight to the death, even if I know a DM or another player will raise me.

As for the question, because it could be better.
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Exp loss is just a matter of time to negate it. It is not a lasting a effect, merely player patience needed to kill back to where they were. As Molag_Bal said only people who even take a XP loss most of the time are those soloing. So basically in the current system as long as you have a party your death doesn't matter, because you will avoid the experience hit. Which leads to the next point....

Death is not respected in PVM, evidence can be seen through observations of what people do when they get raised. They just rest and go back to what they were doing. Only PvP and Dm events get any real respect regarding death, even then DM events are still getting disrespected in regards to death with people running back into the throes of battle like a honey badger.

This is why you see people throw corpses down in front of camp fire and other people raising them. Rather than go to a temple and pay five hundred gold. Its so easy to get out of death penalty completely if you know what your doing.

Please note debuff stat proposed effects every single type of death, which is some thing the current system does not do. There shouldn't be any sense of getting out of free card.

Getting poisoned is the closest thing I can compare a stat loss to right now. When my guy gets poisoned my party will comment on it, and I might even throw in some RP comments about how my guy feels sick. If it's my primary stat getting poisoned there is a sense of urgency of getting to safety to recover asap. When you can see what is effecting you and how, it becomes easy to translate into RP.

If issue is a matter of harshness. When players get to a certain level (any one above level ten?) add a temporary energy drain to them. Do you really think people would take -4 all stats and 2d4 level drain as light. It wouldn't even be a issue of going to lower level because what you may be able to kill then might only give 5 or 10 experience points.

At level 15 losing 2d4 levels and -4 stats for ten minutes is nothing I'd consider easily shrugged off.

There is nothing to say that with a debuff penalty people won't party more or less. Or the fact that if taverns has a effect on how mechanics of death effect you, people wouldn't want to RP more in taverns. Since a tavern can have a direct impact on quality of your play time, taverns will have significant importance to players.

Material components on spells is a slippery road, I would most likely be against it out of fear that first raise dead, next bigby line spells, or some other spells. Until players need to make mules to farm up 10k just to give to their wizards and clerics so they are playable.

[Blackbird]

Frankly, at this point I'd be extraordinarily happy with any mechanic that gets people into some buildings. And even more so if those buildings were taverns. And I'd probably die from happiness if the reason people were in those taverns was because they were telling tales of their recent brushes with death while downing a tankard of ale. Anything to get even a few people to stop pretending to be camping commoners in front of the FAI sharing rumors while toasting marshmallows (sorry campfire lovers). We're adventurers after all (well, most of us are; maybe a few of us are actual merchants who might have real reason to sit around a campfire for a day and a night).

Hell, I just wandered into the Shelf of Many Books today having never even realized it was there and it's such an awesome interior space, but the vast majority of this stuff never gets used despite the fact there was clearly a great deal of effort put into making it. It makes me sad and I'm tired of drinking alone in the FAI.

On the plus side of the current setup, all of the empty buildings would make for great evil cult lairs.

[Catam]

And I'd probably die from happiness if the reason people were in those taverns was because they were telling tales of their recent brushes with death while downing a tankard of ale.

What would be the recommended penalty for dying from happiness anyway?

[TheVoid]

Death penalties like a debuff being absolved or mitigated in a Tavern will not at all guarantee there will be more RP in taverns. Players have a choice to spawn in a tavern and most will just take a coffee break and AFK until the timer runs out.

The reason why the campfire is popular is the following:

1. Major annex for PC's -- More PC's are going to be at this annex because they HAVEN'T DIED than in a tavern where they have basically gotten killed due to solo''ing. The Campfire in FAI is a public annex for many different CR level areas.
2. The probability of a DM hosting a random event is 75% higher in outdoor public areas with high traffic.
3. The need to transition less -- the one thing I absolutely HATE about NWN series is the need to transition. For many it causes delays, lag, and all sorts of crap that they would prefer to minimize.
4. Players gravitate to open areas with good lighting -- As we have seen in UD where most areas are interior tiles that are confining and claustrophobic not to mention the text storms you get when 20 plus players are talking in a small area.

Those are my top four main reason why an exterior area will ALWAYS be more an obvious choice for players to congregate.

Adding value to Taverns won't change this that much, especially if it is only meant to mitigate death penalties for those who are more proned to dying due to carelessness (IE; THE SOLO'IST) since their primary motivation is level progression and anything that hampers that will only become a niusance not a means to dissuade them from their priority to level first and RP later.

As far as the elitist attitude of action RP vs Social RP. That doesn't even register with me. I don't care what you do as long as you do it within the rules and in character. Both forms are valid but one takes risks while other does not. The one taking the risk will get more reward, no? If they loose then they get spanked, if they win out they progress faster than the ones who did not take the risk.

What the proposed sounds like is if I were to walk into a casino and demand that instead of loosing cash for making or taking a dumb bet, I get a time out from playing at the tables? I wonder how that would go over with the Pit Bosses...

As far as the gold loss as money sink to heal your debuff faster. We don't really need to talk about a gold sink since we are talking about an XP sink. In the future, we should add more Xp sinks that would allow you some more flexibility with things like spell creation, crafting, enchanting, empowering certain spells.

OR

Raising someone from the dead. You see the problem is not with the players dropping the corpses at the campfire and taking light of death. The problem is the wanton use of the spells with absolutely no drawback or cost. If the casters of divine magic would actually play their god's dogma and self police themselves to not hand out raises like cheap candy then we could get somewhere but we all know that this raises moral dilemnas OOC'ly due to player guilt. On the other hand, we should be adding costs in terms of XP or some other sink to counter the proliferation of these powerful kind of spells imho. The use is more of the problem then the end result.

As for the issue with how RP'able is Death?

Well again, this will take suspension of disbelief that somehow you were raised or survived. A stat debuff will have the same fallacy. If you are felled by a dozen flesh eating trolls, how do you RP surviving that with a stat debuff or with an IC death? It's the same issue. The circumstance of the penalty may be different but you will need to suspend the same amount if NOT MORE disbelief for either situation upon being felled. If you think that one set of conditions like stat debuff will FORCE a player to RP the debuff conditions this is not at all true. Just like a player can shrug off the death XP penalty via raise dead and not at all RP it... A Debuffed character will just park themselves into a tavern and wait out the reduced timer with a big yellow AFK sign overhead.

I've played on servers that used taverns as a hub to mitigate permenant debuffs from customized survival stats, stats that if depleted meant your permanent death. Most players just park their toons and all you are left with is a tavern with half if not more of these solo grinders being AFK waiting out the timers.

The roleplayers will still be outside, at the campfire rp'ing with other RP'ers that are passing by to adventure into an annexed area or have come for social RP chit chat. So we trade the Fugue for a tavern essentially.

As leafsmoker said, the most valuable character asset is XP. We affect that asset to control progression and behavior. Conditioning the players to a RISK vs REWARD mentality that all games have. I admit that yes, there might be other systems that may be more innovative in that approach but we are not pioneers in game development. As it was said MMORPGS have used the penalties as a negative reinforcer to cleverly condition players to spend more time on the server. That is the beauty of the system being employed. The longer you spend reaching your end game the more opportunities you might have to immerse and experience the RP of others and learn about the lore of the setting perhaps even research more of the setting than you would have intially done so if the end-game came so quickly.

I have known dozens of players including the former Head DM that have come to here with NO EXPERIENCE in FR or DND that have now become experts because they have chosen to stop and really smell the roses (partly because our system does not allow them a speedy trip through levels) and really learn and even educate others about the setting or how they have interpretted the content through their character's point of view. It's not a perfect system but it's gotten us pretty far for the last four years running. Overtime, perhaps there will be modifications but I would never say an improvement since most of us will never agree on what is an improvement on things like penalties and consequences.