Pale master Summon greater undead question

[Laenor]

It won't change your power. It only changes how long you can use it. That's what I meant.

Instead of beeing stuck after casting spells for say, 18 minutes, I ll be stuck after casting spells for 16 minutes.

Instead of losing 1 minute each rest cycle to summon a undead and buff it, I'll lose 2 minutes per rest cycle to summon two undeads and buff them.

Or I'll just use a single extended CGU spell that'll last for 4x35 = 140 rounds (or 14 minutes...) and get about the same power as before.

That's the point : You're not limiting the power of a Wizard by chaging that duration, you're just limiting the fun in using a undead servant as a necromancer to do your deeds.

curious, all the magi I have seen running around with CGU summons seemed far more interested in having them effortlessly butcher just about everything the area's spawn throw at them rather than "having fun in using an undead servant as a necromancer to do your deeds". Unless, that is, butchering just about everything with an uber summon comprises "having fun in using an undead servant as a necromancer to do your deeds"

Edit:
By the way, yesterday evening I had a happy and relaxing chat with breteas, AKA the Holy Knight of the Nerfhammer: while the chat's details are unnecessary, it was rather curious seeing him answer to my tells with an alarming speed, considering that he was grinding inside the netherese ruins, and his undead summon was more than enough to mulch everything without him having to actually interfere.

That change won't do anything about "undead servant butchering things".

Regarding the Netherese ruins, I'd be very interested in seeing him kill stuff there with just his undead summon.

Been there, done that. The summon alone won't be able to deal with ghosts, greater shadows and all that kind of stuff.
Maybe it'll kill one or two alone, but it'll get owned quite fast down there without proper support.
Unless he's talking about the salamanders before the netherese ruins.

Edit.: As I said previously, if you want to deal with the "Undead servant butcher things too well", just have the summong spells scale with level slightly by giving a less powerful summon at CL 15-25 and the current summons at CL 26+
That will actually impact things, and you won't have level 16 wizards owning everything from their current level with overpowerful summons.

Because honestly, in late epic levels, the current summon is fine.

[Valefort]

No no.. the Netherese ruins, the maze, the shadows, the night thingies, the elementals. The trick is to wait for the 5 HP /regen to heal your summon in between fights, even taking a few hits in place of your summon to make sure it survives.

Yes it changes only how long you can use it, you can play the same way and give buffs to your summon but you'll pay more for it, it was deemed to cheap.

[Laenor]

Well, do you think waiting 5-15 (25-75 hp) rounds between each fight is the proper way to play a wizard that is highly limited by the duration of his personnal buffs ?

Using a summon is basically a nice way for a Wizard to deal with regular mobs.
You turn your spells into an AB35 AC35 DR10 crit immune melee.

All it helps you with is killing stuff longer. Regular melee or divine builds will still outperform both on how fast they can kill and how long they can kill.

Valefort, look, when we teamed up in the Vault, I DREAMT of beeing able to kill these undeads as reliably as you take them alone. And you were in a place where your own build is heavily disadvantaged (uncritable high DR undeads) ... and I don't think you can argue that you're not playing the most powerful melee build, right ? I'm playing a Wiz/ASoC/BM, probably the best arcane classes combination at the moment.

The best levels of a Wizard are 20-25. That's when you'll be at your prime.

Comes level 30, except in PvP (But PvP can't be balanced, and relies mostly on who attacks who first / who is willing to use the most consumables) wizards are not at the top of the food chain.

[Valefort]

You can wait that many rounds, your own spells will last longer than the summon anyway, if you don't want to wait use healing kits like everybody.

As for when we teamed up in the Vault the key word is team, alone Mealir would never have been able to stay alive without all those arcane buffs, plus I paid for the damage, wands of bless weapon and wand of fire weapon all along. Mealir is a melee type, yes he has much more stable power than Donovan, hopefully Team with a fighter/FB and it will be even better.

And yes, comparatively to the rest of the builds wizards are at their top around level 20, after that their power hardly progress at all unlike other builds. Wizards can still kill stuff at level 30 no problem though, fighters stay well under them in the food chain, diviners are on top, gishes and bards near the caster wizards.

[Laenor]

You can wait that many rounds, your own spells will last longer than the summon anyway, if you don't want to wait use healing kits like everybody.

That's exactly what I do, I was just pointing out that suggesting to wait 1mn after killing a creature when your own spells last 30 minutes is probably the wrong way to do it.

Anyway, I guess I'll just level a warlock to 30 now

[Simian]

But the thing is, you do not have to wait for your summon to reach full health, when it is sufficiently up, you can move on, and it will regenerate further as you walk.

[Valefort]

Yes, and run around provoking attacks of opportunity for your pet while the mob desperately tries to go through your premonition if your summon needs more time to heal.

Oh and you know you can extend those 30 minutes buffs to 60 if you so want Laenor

[Laenor]

Against epic mobs you don't want to do that for too long :p

[breteas]

Regarding the Netherese ruins, I'd be very interested in seeing him kill stuff there with just his undead summon.

Don't worry Laenor. I just haven't been jumped by enough Epic Salamanders for it to be worth recording. Patience is gold. You will have your video.

Unless he's talking about the salamanders before the netherese ruins.

Ofc I am. Those are only lvl 24 spawns. Not that it matters, it will take on magma golems, Dreadwraiths and nightwalkers too.

[Laenor]

If you're only able to manage 1 type of mob there with your summon (and by having the AB of the mob lowered by using enfeeblement), it's hardly imbalanced

[breteas]

If you're only able to manage 1 type of mob there with your summon (and by having the AB of the mob lowered by using enfeeblement), it's hardly imbalanced

You misunderstand, Laenor. There is absolutely nothing down in UD that would kill PM vampire. But you know this.

Wait, someone reminded me bosses would ofc. Outside that, nothing.

[Laenor]

There's also nothing that will kill a fully buffed Summon Creature IX.
But you know this.

Or a fully buffed druid animal companion.
But you also know this.

It's not like the Greater Undead is a special case here, anything it can kill, these other summons can kill just as fine

Edit.: Of course outside bosses. The melee ennemies are fodder for everyone. All that matters is how fast do you kill them.
The only challenging mobs are spellcasters, some are more than able to put a dent in the CGU, or even to kill them alone.
Nagas, especially, cast some very nasty AoE spells against CGU.

[breteas]

It's not like the Greater Undead is a special case here, anything it can kill, these other summons can kill just as fine

I'm not talking about CGU. I'm talking about the Vampire. PM Summon Greater Undead.

[Laenor]

They are almost identical :p
The CGU, PM summon and any of these can solo melee fodder easily when buffed.
Edit.: Except probably Fire Giants I'd think, and they'd suffer quite a bit against some epic spellcasting mobs.

[Corax]

Despite what you may be led to believe by my disagreeing with you, Laenor, I understand your point. You are trying to convey the message wizards should have that particular tool, because they are already not able to challenge a WM/FB or a FS/BG farming endurance. This is NOT where I disagree. As I said before:

If, however, you want to fight endlessly, well, you can't be as effective as other classes. It's a trade-off, Laenor. If you want to mow a lawn of enemies over and over again, you picked the wrong class.

The Wizard, contrarily to what you believe, is the master of duels. Equal consumables, wizard wins. No consumables, Wizard owns. A certain advantage in consumables for the Wizard's opponent does NOT mean he/she will win, and in fact probably the mage will end up winning anyway. Only a BIG advantage in consumables yelds a stalemate/forces the wizard to relocate...because to outright kill a decent wizard, you need a lot of luck AND some VERY specific builds.

If you're only able to manage 1 type of mob there with your summon (and by having the AB of the mob lowered by using enfeeblement), it's hardly imbalanced

Yeah! That's what we were advocating the whole thread, actually: PM Summon is fine. No need for buffs. It was the very reason of this thread, the point of debate.

Anyway, I guess I'll just level a warlock to 30 now

Now, this looks like an idea. To obtain what you wish, a lock would be a fantastic character. Good luck, and have fun!