Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

dzidek1983 wrote:i think the story always goes around PRC's and the CGU summon.. and what a GOOD aligned character shouldnt use (evil spells)...

The only relevant spells to this dialogue are Vampiric Feast and Avasculate. Really, really nice spells. Can live without both. Seriously.

like using CGU is evil and no good character should use it, hence the good ones are all on the loosing side when it comes to a long lasting powerfull summon

Long lasting? 2 rounds/lvl is long lasting?

now we have PRC's, we could disagree but some if not the most of powerfull PRC's have tnedency to be played as evil mainly, Blood Mage, Shadow Adept, Pale Master, they could be LN or N but they are so much better RP wise as evil characters

True. Except they are not all the most powerful PrCs. As I described above. Valefort also posted interesting ideas from the variety PoV.

now we dont have any (besides the mediocre DsM) PRC's that would require good alignments
sure we have lets cal lthem general PRC's liek the archmage or asoc
but they are not linked to any alignment

Why would they be? What comes to good characters if evil ones cannot pick Archmage? What advantages do they have?

As I said, the most powerful "good" wizards and (ESPECIALLY) sorcerers are easily on par with the most powerful evil ones. The latter group has more choice and two great spells more, the former has a better Gate and no KoS shenanigans. There is a difference, but it's much less marked than you think.

i understand what your talking here.. i just try to understand people saying its not ok, trying to understand their point of view...

some play a NG or LG wizards and they would liek to differ from their evil counterparts...
they wont take the "evil" PRC's cos they cant so they are left with PRC's that the evil ones also use
in the same time they would liek to have a group of PRC's that fit their characters from RP and alignment side and in the same time the "evil" guys wont use cos they cant...

dzidek1983 wrote:i understand what your talking here.. i just try to understand people saying its not ok, trying to understand their point of view...

some play a NG or LG wizards and they would liek to differ from their evil counterparts...
they wont take the "evil" PRC's cos they cant so they are left with PRC's that the evil ones also use
in the same time they would liek to have a group of PRC's that fit their characters from RP and alignment side and in the same time the "evil" guys wont use cos they cant...

I see.

Strictly speaking, a good character can use Bloodmage and Pale Master. The one class really barred is Shadow Adept, but it's hardly necessary to make a strong mage.

I'm not sure how barring evil characters from PrCs is going to give anything to good and neutral ones, but if that is the general feeling...

Wizards (which are fine even pure) and sorcerers (more valid PrCs if good or evil alike) have lots of very, very good options even without being evil, and the difference is very evident because those who turn towards those PrC tending to Evil are de facto renouncing to other options (Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, Archmage...) simply because there is no space for them. For instance, one of the best ways to play Archmage on a Wizard is Wiz20/AM10, because of how demanding the PrC is.

In any case, this is an entirely different point respect to the"good arcanists are weak" showcased before.

Pale master has "non-good" as a requirement, it's as barred as Shadow Adept is.

Anyway whatever the specialty you pick the non-good arcane caster one will be slightly better than the non-evil one, DC, AC, saves, you name it. All except the summoning, because the epic angel kicks asses.

The differences are not huge but they're there, build wise and spell wise non-good spellcasters have advantages, there is no equality there, even with sorcerers thrown into the mix.

Being evil has another drawback that noone has mentioned so far, I think. Protection from alignment is almost always cast vs evil, and it cancels out all the mind affecting spells that an evil spellcaster has. That's particularly unfortunate if you're an evil druid using Storm of Vengeance, or an evil enchanter. Because of how mind immunity is hardcoded, it helps against a variety of effects, which in essence means that an evil spellcaster is vary of using several good spells. These are for example evard's black tentacles, solipsism or fear for the arcanes.

Mostly it's a PvP thing, but that's one advantage any non-evil spellcaster has at least.

Karond wrote:Being evil has another drawback that noone has mentioned so far, I think. Protection from alignment is almost always cast vs evil, and it cancels out all the mind affecting spells that an evil spellcaster has. That's particularly unfortunate if you're an evil druid using Storm of Vengeance, or an evil enchanter. Mostly it's a PvP thing, but that's one advantage any non-evil spellcaster has at least.

That's true, but the only one really safe from this is the neutral caster. Everyone casts the double circle after rest, I think, or keeps two in his/her book.

The differences are not huge but they're there, build wise and spell wise non-good spellcasters have advantages, there is no equality there, even with sorcerers thrown into the mix.

Not so. Wiz7/SD3/FM10/ASoC10 and Sorc6/Pal4/ASoC10/EK10 are staple builds. There is nothing stronger, only different. Never stronger. Use BM or PM at will: you can vary, but never improve on those two.

I think Aelcar raises good points when he differentiates Sorcerer and Wizards. Sorcerer is more balanced alignment wise because Archmage and Arcane Scholar are fantastic PrCs for Sorcerer, better than on Wizard. There is also Paladin/EK obviously but let's focus on classic mage builds.

But Wizard is a synonim for a mage here because vast majority of players will pick Wizard over Sorcerer because of the skill points, spell access, non ECL races with bonus to intelligence and extra feats. Sorcerer gets spontaneous casting and 6x spells per circle but a specialized Wizard with starting 20 Intelligence and delaying 10th and 15th levels to Epics, for instance, can have up to 4 Intelligence more than Sorcerer Charisma. Add to that bonus spell slots from items which are more easier to find for a Wizard and he will come quite close to sheer blasting power of a Sorcerer.

Long lasting? 2 rounds/lvl is long lasting?

Oh it is if you combine Thaurmagist extend feat with the regular feat. 8 rounds per level is um...epic! I kind of kick myself for not making my druid evil but then again I'd have to completely change who he is and that's a loss for me. At 8 rounds per level, it might as well be a PM summon or permanent henchman. One vamp, as long as it doesn't die in battle, will last longer than your resting period.

Even a normally extended CGU at 9th level lasts a pretty decent amount of time. Used to use two of these in the dragon caves to solo it for me. by the time I went through 2 extended CGU's it was time to go nap nap.

The angel is a formidable summon that can be used to solo as well if you have the kind of sorc buffing power of a....well a sorc, and being a Thaurmagist. But I have to use like 3 to 4 of those to solo the same caverns before rest. If I could switch those two or amend the gate spell to last 2 rounds per level I would in a heartbeat.

ohboy007 wrote:

Long lasting? 2 rounds/lvl is long lasting?

Oh it is if you combine Thaurmagist extend feat with the regular feat. 8 rounds per level is um...epic! I kind of kick myself for not making my druid evil but then again I'd have to completely change who he is and that's a loss for me. At 8 rounds per level, it might as well be a PM summon or permanent henchman. One vamp, as long as it doesn't die in battle, will last longer than your resting period.

Even a normally extended CGU at 9th level lasts a pretty decent amount of time. Used to use two of these in the dragon caves to solo it for me. by the time I went through 2 extended CGU's it was time to go nap nap.

The angel is a formidable summon that can be used to solo as well if you have the kind of sorc buffing power of a....well a sorc, and being a Thaurmagist. But I have to use like 3 to 4 of those to solo the same caverns before rest. If I could switch those two or amend the gate spell to last 2 rounds per level I would in a heartbeat.

And you dont think Thaumaturgist should have that option? Thaumaturgists can be good, and have their advantage for being good. Which was my point .

Every double summon set-up soloes everything, good, evil or neutral. And if it doesnt, you can always go away and do it again. The point is, perma CGU for no investment whatsoever isnt real. Just like perma Angel isnt real.

Thaumaturgist can extend Gates, this alone makes the 5 level investment worthy in my opinion.

8 minutes of angel form Epic Gate.
6 minutes of angel from normal Gate.

same for the demon/devil version

dzidek1983 wrote:Thaumaturgist can extend Gates, this alone makes the 5 level investment worthy in my opinion.

8 minutes of angel form Epic Gate.
6 minutes of angel from normal Gate.

same for the demon/devil version

Does not work on Epic gate just like augment summons does not work on epic gate summons. Unless they changed it?

Aelcar wrote:

ohboy007 wrote:

Long lasting? 2 rounds/lvl is long lasting?

Oh it is if you combine Thaurmagist extend feat with the regular feat. 8 rounds per level is um...epic! I kind of kick myself for not making my druid evil but then again I'd have to completely change who he is and that's a loss for me. At 8 rounds per level, it might as well be a PM summon or permanent henchman. One vamp, as long as it doesn't die in battle, will last longer than your resting period.

Even a normally extended CGU at 9th level lasts a pretty decent amount of time. Used to use two of these in the dragon caves to solo it for me. by the time I went through 2 extended CGU's it was time to go nap nap.

The angel is a formidable summon that can be used to solo as well if you have the kind of sorc buffing power of a....well a sorc, and being a Thaurmagist. But I have to use like 3 to 4 of those to solo the same caverns before rest. If I could switch those two or amend the gate spell to last 2 rounds per level I would in a heartbeat.

And you dont think Thaumaturgist should have that option? Thaumaturgists can be good, and have their advantage for being good. Which was my point .

Every double summon set-up soloes everything, good, evil or neutral. And if it doesnt, you can always go away and do it again. The point is, perma CGU for no investment whatsoever isnt real. Just like perma Angel isnt real.

Nope, im a thaumatigist. I think you should have to invest for this. I was just saying the CGU can last quite awhile even without all the bells and whistles and only being extended to 9th level.

As for permanent summons, actually I think we should have them. CGU lasts for how long in PnP? Dominate lasts how long in PnP? Days my friend, days. But that is a whole other subject and considering NWN2's limitations, I'm not that concerned about implementing "normal" spell durations for these spells because I know many people's heads would explode as well.

ohboy007 wrote:
As for permanent summons, actually I think we should have them. CGU lasts for how long in PnP? Dominate lasts how long in PnP? Days my friend, days. But that is a whole other subject and considering NWN2's limitations, I'm not that concerned about implementing "normal" spell durations for these spells because I know many people's heads would explode as well.

Yeah, we'd have a few problems with this. It'd be like implementing Timestop, for instance. It's a balance concern, more than anything.

For instance, a serious summoner should have a few creatures, not one. But there are things you just cannot be accurate with.

maybe make a Thaumaturgist summon a "black orc" type of creature

so freakin buffed cos it resembles an army of smaller creatures

dzidek1983 wrote:maybe make a Thaumaturgist summon a "black orc" type of creature

so freakin buffed cos it resembles an army of smaller creatures

You mean an Amnian Golden Legionnaire with 80+ spot, dealing 60 dmg x hit and with 500 HP ...