This thread blew up fast!
Im too lazy to read all of it. Im just going to assume you all made some good points- you are all very well spoken. Good job keep up the good work. No really, I mean it.
And now, I have the conch! Muahhhahaaa!
So first thing I want to say is Im going to start a new server called:
Baldur's Gate The Sword Coast Encyclopedias!
Its going to be a bizarro BGTSCC - Its going to be terrific! Full pvp, perma deaths, 1 dm per player- and pie.
Okay Juuust kidding - I do not have the useful computer skills required to try to create a persistant world folk would actually want to hang around in.
And actually, Im not a big fan of perma strikes or perma death in NWN. There is too much randomn one minute your alive and the next momment your dead situations in the video game. Arbitrary and often not really fair.
But I loved the fear of perma death in the pnp game....how did 2nd edition go? After the raise spell was cast you rolled a check to see if you return to life or not and even if you made it you still lost a point of con...it was something like that. One did not want to die which made the game very exciting. Every move you character took had to be calculated and strategized. And there was always a DM there to at least try to give a clue that a horrible fate awaits anyone that goes into the next room.
I would still probably play the game if I only had x lives though because I feel the game does lack a sense of danger, and am willing to try just about anything at this point to add some spice.
My opinion on adding spice would be get a lot more DMs running a lot more DM events. Or encourage player versus player conflict.
I've been following this for a couple of days now, and I think Ihave an adequate response. It's a bit of a rant at times, but please bear with me, and know that if I describe you, I'm not talking ABOUT you.
First, the OP question: I would still play, with some stipulations -- PvP doesn't count toward deaths, and contains safeguards against lag-spike deaths. That's my short answer. The PvE game isn't really my issue -- Brokk is lvl 15, and hasn't ever died, even once. (He came close during a DM event, but he squeaked past with like 2hp left -- very close, very awesome. Moving on...) My issue is the massive level disparity between players that might engage in PvP -- it's often not even close to fair, and it's a standard feature on litereally every server, in every game that has character levels.
So it strikes me that this might actually be part of the root cause mentioned earlier -- The consequences of death. In the last 9 pages, nobody has complained, or scarcely mentioned the PvE world. Nearly all the discussion has been about PvP (and DM events, but everyone seems to trust this implicitly), and that tells me that the problem is rooted there.
Some posters (No names, and please do not be offended) seem to have a pretty flippant view on PvP, and from where I'm sitting, it's because they have a lvl 30 character, and don't have to worry about getting ganked in a 1,000% one-sided conflict -- they have their buiid, and they're ready to test it on even ground with another player, every time. Not the case with anyone pre-epic.
I don't have an epic character, and I won't for a long time. This is not a complaint -- I like, for the most part, watching a character grow and develop over time. I enjoy getting close to that next level, and feeling the anticipation of everything that comes with it. However, I do feel that this is holding me back from many interactions with other players, even friendly ones. EVERY time I have an encounter that might turn hostile, I have to tell myself that it's okay, I'm just going to die, I'll figure out some way to explain it away, etc... (If grinding/questing with other players, there is a massive difference in play -- they stride in through pits of snakes and scorpions that would kill my character, and I do my best to keep up, and not look like a toddler trying to play full-contact football with daddy and his friends. Sometimes its annoying, sometimes its humiliating, but always never as much fun as having a close-to-party group testing the limits of their level.)
Thankfully, I've had very few PvP encounters, and those encounters have all been with way awesome players that knew they were dealing with a massively under-powered opponent. Additionally, the higher level characters I hang out with are always looking to find some common ground between us, usually RP related. You guys are freaking awesome (and this speaks to everyone reading this) , and it keeps me coming back for more.
But, to finally get to an already belabored point -- that's the root of all this. If I'm exploring as a lvl 12, in my own territory, and some lvl 21 strides in, also exploring, there's going to be tension, but not the good kind. I already know who's going to win if it comes to blows, and let me tell you, THAT. BLOWS. So I can totally see why some people blow off PvP death entirely -- because, unless you're both somehow the same level, your build can go suck it -- it doesn't matter who or what you are, it only matters that you're 10 levels behind your oponent, and you might as well just stand there for all its worth. (For the record, I have seen this balance upset once, by a lucky spell, and an unlucky save, so I'm aware that it's possible, but it is undeniably improbable, and should not be held as an example against this argument.)
So -- I ask of all of you -- Why should there be consequences for that? Why should there be consequences for not having played as long, or as often as another player?
I know the first argument is going to be: "Because my character has been around longer, they have more training and experience, just like in real life". False equivalancy, I'm sorry to say. My Elf was born before your human's great grandfather. For them to "Be more experienced" in anything is laughable. Now, this argument is of course subjective -- there are cases where it certainly would apply, but to use it as the default ("rules are rules") is lazy, and also tends to be used by people with lvl 30 characers to defend their supremacy, rather than allow it to be challenged. (In short, it's a discussion ending statement, rather than being a discussion-related statement.)
"Okay, Moose -- you're long on complaints, but what about solutions?" First of all -- don't interrupt me whilst I'm typing. It's rude. Second of all -- GET OUT OF MY BRAIN. It's weird.
Solutions are tricky, here, because they don't favor anyone (which is a nice way of saying that almost everyone will hate it). One solution I've seen brought up a few times is a level cap. Aweomse idea, I love it. One problem there is that many of a classes features aren't fully realized until a character hits 20 (Monk, Cleric, Wizard, Bard, Rogue, many PrC). So a cap of lvl 12 makes for a bunch of mush that more or less tastes the same (class-wise, not characer-wise, of course!). So cap at 20? Sure, but now you still have a 1-19 level gap possible. Granted, the first 10 levels go pretty quickly, but that still leaves you with a 1-10 level gap for a good while. But maybe that's tolerable? I don't know, but I'd be willing to give it a shot!
Another possibility is setting a minimum level. Many servers start you off at lvl 3, and I've always been a fan of that. But there's no reason it couldn't be lvl 5, or 10, or 15.... hell, just make everyone the same and have a max level of 20, and start everyone there! No more worries about XP loss, RCR, etc. Everyone is on the same playing field from the word go. (Naturally, this idea wouldn't really work, either, because an integral part of the D&D experience is XP and level gain. So please pardon me for being sardonic.)
What about level pens? (areas where you need to be within a certain level range to access) Works in MMO's, except when it doesn't. (How many times have you seen a lvl 80 trolling around the lvl 30 area?) Plus, that would require a whole redesign of the entire server.
The last solution I have (and is my favorite, and I think the most workable) is that everyone just cools their (#2), and use their empathy over ego when going into PvP. If you have a bandit, and you're extorting people, have a little OOC chat with your potential victim to make sure you're not utterly ruining their day, maybe? If you're hunting for Evil/Good PC's, maybe just set your PvP to KO, and once they're down, grab them by the collar, spit at them, and tell them to go back to where they belong? Why is chopping off heads, mutiliating corpses, or even flat-out murder ever the de-facto option?
I'm baiting. I know the answer. The point here is "It's what my character would do" is also a poor argument because it announces to the world "I don't care about you, I'm only in this for myself". Which, if you use that argument, is true (Yeah, bring it.), even if the user doesn't realize it. There is a difference between staying true to a character, and being callous or oblivious to another person and their own fun. Role-play is a collaborative experience, and if you're not willing to colaborate because "It's not what my character would do", then you're not role-playing, you're using other people's characters to play dollies. ("Now kiss!!!") There is ALWAYS something better and more interesting than dominating another character, killing them, and dumping the body, even if that would be your character's first option. But, sometimes we run out of time, or just can't think of anything -- that's fine: Share! Ask the other person what they think would be interesting. Victory is only one part of PvP, and arguably the weakest in my view. The PvP victor might have final say over what happens, but that doesn't mean that they're the only voice in the conversation.
Alright -- I'll close up here. To sum up: Level disparity in PvP is apparently the biggest gripe, with a host of sub-consequences that stem from it. Empathy in PvP is a huge factor. DFM is a big fat whiner. So how do we actually fix this?
DeepFriedMoose wrote:I've been following this for a couple of days now, and I think Ihave an adequate response. It's a bit of a rant at times, but please bear with me, and know that if I describe you, I'm not talking ABOUT you.
First, the OP question: I would still play, with some stipulations -- PvP doesn't count toward deaths, and contains safeguards against lag-spike deaths. That's my short answer. The PvE game isn't really my issue -- Brokk is lvl 15, and hasn't ever died, even once. (He came close during a DM event, but he squeaked past with like 2hp left -- very close, very awesome. Moving on...) My issue is the massive level disparity between players that might engage in PvP -- it's often not even close to fair, and it's a standard feature on litereally every server, in every game that has character levels.
So it strikes me that this might actually be part of the root cause mentioned earlier -- The consequences of death. In the last 9 pages, nobody has complained, or scarcely mentioned the PvE world. Nearly all the discussion has been about PvP (and DM events, but everyone seems to trust this implicitly), and that tells me that the problem is rooted there.
Some posters (No names, and please do not be offended) seem to have a pretty flippant view on PvP, and from where I'm sitting, it's because they have a lvl 30 character, and don't have to worry about getting ganked in a 1,000% one-sided conflict -- they have their buiid, and they're ready to test it on even ground with another player, every time. Not the case with anyone pre-epic.
I don't have an epic character, and I won't for a long time. This is not a complaint -- I like, for the most part, watching a character grow and develop over time. I enjoy getting close to that next level, and feeling the anticipation of everything that comes with it. However, I do feel that this is holding me back from many interactions with other players, even friendly ones. EVERY time I have an encounter that might turn hostile, I have to tell myself that it's okay, I'm just going to die, I'll figure out some way to explain it away, etc... (If grinding/questing with other players, there is a massive difference in play -- they stride in through pits of snakes and scorpions that would kill my character, and I do my best to keep up, and not look like a toddler trying to play full-contact football with daddy and his friends. Sometimes its annoying, sometimes its humiliating, but always never as much fun as having a close-to-party group testing the limits of their level.)
Thankfully, I've had very few PvP encounters, and those encounters have all been with way awesome players that knew they were dealing with a massively under-powered opponent. Additionally, the higher level characters I hang out with are always looking to find some common ground between us, usually RP related. You guys are freaking awesome (and this speaks to everyone reading this) , and it keeps me coming back for more.
But, to finally get to an already belabored point -- that's the root of all this. If I'm exploring as a lvl 12, in my own territory, and some lvl 21 strides in, also exploring, there's going to be tension, but not the good kind. I already know who's going to win if it comes to blows, and let me tell you, THAT. BLOWS. So I can totally see why some people blow off PvP death entirely -- because, unless you're both somehow the same level, your build can go suck it -- it doesn't matter who or what you are, it only matters that you're 10 levels behind your oponent, and you might as well just stand there for all its worth. (For the record, I have seen this balance upset once, by a lucky spell, and an unlucky save, so I'm aware that it's possible, but it is undeniably improbable, and should not be held as an example against this argument.)
So -- I ask of all of you -- Why should there be consequences for that? Why should there be consequences for not having played as long, or as often as another player?
I know the first argument is going to be: "Because my character has been around longer, they have more training and experience, just like in real life". False equivalancy, I'm sorry to say. My Elf was born before your human's great grandfather. For them to "Be more experienced" in anything is laughable. Now, this argument is of course subjective -- there are cases where it certainly would apply, but to use it as the default ("rules are rules") is lazy, and also tends to be used by people with lvl 30 characers to defend their supremacy, rather than allow it to be challenged. (In short, it's a discussion ending statement, rather than being a discussion-related statement.)
"Okay, Moose -- you're long on complaints, but what about solutions?" First of all -- don't interrupt me whilst I'm typing. It's rude. Second of all -- GET OUT OF MY BRAIN. It's weird.
Solutions are tricky, here, because they don't favor anyone (which is a nice way of saying that almost everyone will hate it). One solution I've seen brought up a few times is a level cap. Aweomse idea, I love it. One problem there is that many of a classes features aren't fully realized until a character hits 20 (Monk, Cleric, Wizard, Bard, Rogue, many PrC). So a cap of lvl 12 makes for a bunch of mush that more or less tastes the same (class-wise, not characer-wise, of course!). So cap at 20? Sure, but now you still have a 1-19 level gap possible. Granted, the first 10 levels go pretty quickly, but that still leaves you with a 1-10 level gap for a good while. But maybe that's tolerable? I don't know, but I'd be willing to give it a shot!
Another possibility is setting a minimum level. Many servers start you off at lvl 3, and I've always been a fan of that. But there's no reason it couldn't be lvl 5, or 10, or 15.... hell, just make everyone the same and have a max level of 20, and start everyone there! No more worries about XP loss, RCR, etc. Everyone is on the same playing field from the word go. (Naturally, this idea wouldn't really work, either, because an integral part of the D&D experience is XP and level gain. So please pardon me for being sardonic.)
What about level pens? (areas where you need to be within a certain level range to access) Works in MMO's, except when it doesn't. (How many times have you seen a lvl 80 trolling around the lvl 30 area?) Plus, that would require a whole redesign of the entire server.
The last solution I have (and is my favorite, and I think the most workable) is that everyone just cools their (#2), and use their empathy over ego when going into PvP. If you have a bandit, and you're extorting people, have a little OOC chat with your potential victim to make sure you're not utterly ruining their day, maybe? If you're hunting for Evil/Good PC's, maybe just set your PvP to KO, and once they're down, grab them by the collar, spit at them, and tell them to go back to where they belong? Why is chopping off heads, mutiliating corpses, or even flat-out murder ever the de-facto option?
I'm baiting. I know the answer. The point here is "It's what my character would do" is also a poor argument because it announces to the world "I don't care about you, I'm only in this for myself". Which, if you use that argument, is true (Yeah, bring it.), even if the user doesn't realize it. There is a difference between staying true to a character, and being callous or oblivious to another person and their own fun. Role-play is a collaborative experience, and if you're not willing to colaborate because "It's not what my character would do", then you're not role-playing, you're using other people's characters to play dollies. ("Now kiss!!!") There is ALWAYS something better and more interesting than dominating another character, killing them, and dumping the body, even if that would be your character's first option. But, sometimes we run out of time, or just can't think of anything -- that's fine: Share! Ask the other person what they think would be interesting. Victory is only one part of PvP, and arguably the weakest in my view. The PvP victor might have final say over what happens, but that doesn't mean that they're the only voice in the conversation.
Alright -- I'll close up here. To sum up: Level disparity in PvP is apparently the biggest gripe, with a host of sub-consequences that stem from it. Empathy in PvP is a huge factor. DFM is a big fat whiner. So how do we actually fix this?
Thanks, all -- love you guys! <3
~ DFM
I mean, a huge level gap in PvP isn't always the higher level player's fault.
I was only level ~12 a few months ago, wearing a hood and mask and sitting alone at the FAI campfire, when some random guy in heavy armor with a mace walked over, randomly declared that I must be a villain because I'm wearing a mask, and tried attacking me to bring me in for my 'crimes'. I kid you not those were the actual things he said.
I turned invisible cast Improved Mage Armor and that sort of spell, gave him a chance to walk away. He agreed, sheathed his weapons, and suddenly attacked again when I re-visibled.
So of course I blew his stupid face to tiny pieces.
Just saying, sometimes you're gonna get an unfair fight in PvP just because not everyone knows what they're doing. Also, don't attack strangers. You might get exploded.
Ahahaha -- Nice. I'm glad you got a good story out of it. Now, imagine if it had been reversed? If the armored goof-ball had been lvl 20?
Your example is funny, because we can agree that the mace-guy was being silly, so the result is slapstick. Like a Starbomb Simon Belmont getting slapped in the face and sent home crying. But what it it had gone differently? I don't think it would be very funny, not to you or me.
In general I agree with: "Don't start nothin', won't be nothin'", but let's say your lvl 12 encountered an unknown Drow on the surface? Character specifics asside, at lvl 12, would you be hesitant to engage? I sure would, because, generaly speaking, you have to be better than lvl 12 to get past all the CR stuff in between the UD and Surface. Odds are good that interaction only ends with me having a bad time. It might not stop me, but that's only because Moose have the racial ability to turn lemons into lemonade. Unlimited uses per day.
"That's metagaming" I just heard someone say. I TOLD YOU TO STAY OUT OF MY BRAIN!
Yeah, it's metagaming like crazy, and I'm fine with that if it means I won't get spanked like a child. Show me a better way to handle that. Just run up and attack? Sure, I guess. See you where ever you warp to, if you're not dragged off to the UD.
Now, I've had some low level characters roll in and roll (do-me)'ing HARD. And if you can pull that off, it works. Brokk rolled in like a boss, and was treated as such through RP, despite being lvl 2. But this has as much to do with the amazing people I RP with as it does anything I bring to the table. It takes 2 to tango, you know?
It takes 2 to RP, too. (Or, I guess more, but I don't judge anyone based on how many people they've RP'd with in the past. I'm just a cool guy like that.)
DeepFriedMoose wrote: But this has as much to do with the amazing people I RP with as it does anything I bring to the table.
It seems the main tool we have available to us players right now in creating a sense of consequences to our action or any elements of realism and danger , is through rp.
I am assuming anyways. Players that play more regularly would be building contacts allies and enemies more often than one of my 4 toons that show up randomly once a week.
So I guess more as a question then- does having regular peeps (allies/enemies) to play with offer enough content or enough interest in the game so that adding more elements like permanent death is not required?
Maybe it's more a matter of playing at more regular times thats keeping me from being more imersed in the game.
DeepFriedMoose wrote:but let's say your lvl 12 encountered an unknown Drow on the surface? Character specifics asside, at lvl 12, would you be hesitant to engage? I sure would, because, generaly speaking, you have to be better than lvl 12 to get past all the CR stuff in between the UD and Surface. Odds are good that interaction only ends with me having a bad time.
Remember, drow are feared and hated across the Realms. It's entirely IC to be scared of drow, for most people.
all i wanted was gold penalty at death @ level 30 for pve, so death means something mechanically @ level 30 .
and that would be an easy thing to do. So players wont suicide loot bosses, but thats more of game design thing for me and it doesn't have to be drastic, just something trivial like 3000 gold if take the myrkal way out.
conversation
check level 30
if level 30
duduct 3000 gold on way out of abyss/death area.
but I brought this up 200 times lol. so carry on
hey lets go kill this dragon - metagames hey were all 30 so meh, we just gotta talk to myrkal and get a free port the fai if everything goes bad.
embraces the "gold" sink
or just add a optional npc in death area, that can grant random or designed permanent negative effect on the charater.
speak to npc
Roll through a negative list ( or even let players select trhough the list) - applies effects - players can then rp those effects, no one game style is effected, generates some rp for the player for penatly = win
dm's can have events to remove the penatly- i would suggest using creature skin or something to apply the effects, or use feats to added to the player, and dm's could easier remove the feat code from the player, if they feel they had suffient rp.
and also have a npc that would remove them as well, if the player got tried of the penatly.
All it would take is making a bunch of feats
Arm lost - 5 ab etc
Benefits
Gives healers something to do rply
Gives player something to rp
Helps track deaths - so would help player decide when to perma
how most charaters would look
Duragin Balderden(Battle Rager of Kraak Helzak)
Rlyd (Drow Wizard)- Fearn School of Enchantment and Charm
Hell no. It takes way to long to level up. If all those hours upon hours of smashing my skull into the pavement to gain levels went poof because I ran out of lives I would def (finally) move on from this server for good.
Rennec Rokranon, Chosen of Helm, Retired for now
Isra Wynterborne, Necromancer Hunter
Rask, The Lich, Retired
S.Ravenpath, collector and author of tall tales.
Nathka Blacksand - Khazark of the Enclave
Richter Bedevere - The Reveler and enjoyer of fine wines
I find that people criticize the RP on BG too much. Sure, it cant be up to everyone's standard. It seems to be good for most. The rest, might try to find something better here - http://www.nwnlist.com/
.
