Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Sun Wukong wrote:Why is that? Beholders dispell and all that, but do they do anything else?

Much much more in their blasts yes. Then there is the oozes that come out to play as well. Just go there and see. Not much can describe the futility that is that cave. Even the White dragon is more approachable than that cave.

JCVD1 wrote:FFS back to OP?

DMs have yet to answer in how many pages? At this point the talks are circular. The truth is we should be making GUILDS GREAT by giving them attention when they are active. Not just the canon lore guilds but also the server lore guilds put together and made real in our world here on the server by players motivated to play in a sandbox environment. Where we can all make sand castles and be a part of the great lore that is D&D.

With that said there have been many ideas on how to do this discussed and many had great ideas. What will happen over time will most likely be something the DMs come to when they want.

I am looking forward to seeing how this thread impacted the world IF it even has.

This of course is my own opinion as a DM, Not that of the team but I'll contribute with my own thoughts.

I wanted to answer aarons question highlighted below;

aaron22 wrote:But why be in a Guild/Faction? I ask this in direct contrast to "going it solo" on the Server, which, btw, has never ever ever been easier than it is now.

A good question, It depends on the player, Some are lone wolves that stay a few stone throw's away from other characters but enjoys observing others.

Other characters work well in a group both in character and a out of character fashion, Especially if different personalities work towards a common goal. Factions are a byproduct of this.

Cutting straight to the point, I'll break down two sections (As Steve mentioned):

How Players can make Guilds great

As some of you have commented, Players are what make guilds/factions operate. You are all architects of your own faction and in the same vein, You can create interactions, Memories, Impressions and influence on your own merits.

The reward in player led guilds is through a myriad of different aspects you can administer. The other characters that you associate with along with the benefits (Or consequences!) along with internal "Rewards" in the form of faction titles providing recognition between the congregation as an example.

Simply put, You as players have those tools of roleplay between you to create what you wish (Within the limitations of lore of course). Recognise that you can achieve much as you all are.

Canon guilds of course have rich history, Built in hierarchies and roles assigned if you enjoy those positions within the realm.

The last matter is do not feel any hesitancy in requesting events if your player led guild wishes to interact with the realms and it requires DM assistance, We are all here to have fun and craft stories for both server history and for players.

How DMs/Staff can support making Guilds great

Following what I just touched upon in what players can do to ensure longevity of guilds/factions. As of this time the team are managing what we can to help support guilds.

As mentioned above, If in such events the faction or guild wishes for interaction then we are just a PM away, Granted depending on the intricacies involved it may take some time to get the ball rolling.

"As it stands, at least as far as I've seen, the DMs currently tend to give their attention to whichever guilds seem the most active at the moment (sometimes they're canon guilds, sometimes they're player originals). And that also seems fine to me if that's what they're happy with."

Maecius said it best in the approach I personally feel comfortable with. Naturally players will come and go, Periods of inactivity will peak and Insane levels of activity will continue. Its a matter of balance.

The main point I would stress (Personally) is that a dedicated DM is not the answer, The answer remains with the communication and planning between the factions and DM assisting at the time.

Final comments

I have read through all of your feedback and rest assured its given a lot of food for thought, Your words have not gone to waste and most certainly it will be taken on board by myself.

Thank you all for the points of view and separate experiences, I wont check this post again but my inbox is always open.

Essay over!

I'll just follow up with what Omega said, opinions on my part.

To put it bluntly, given the current landscape, I don't see it as feasible to consider installing specific DMs for guilds, be it forgotten realms lore based or server lore based guilds. I've seen a lot of comments elsewhere, I don't think this should come as a surprise to anyone.

For a guild to succeed, it really needs a core of active, engaging players (~3). They push and drive RP between guilds and within the group, supporting each other to not get burnt out. They make the group active. They draw others in to RP with them. That's the source that fills the river, DMs are only the rain.

In my experience, DMing for guilds to promote establishment has not helped them establish and maintain. When the attention ceases, so does the guild. This is not sustainable.

Yes DMs are attracted to active guilds. You can also get attention by requesting events. Have a rough direction you'd like to go. As I said earlier, we can't grant full time DMs to guilds, but we can support them with short plots (single events or short chains). Send in a request, copy the entire DM team. Bump it in a week. Then bump it again if you still don't hear anything.

Honestly, my big problem was leadership. You get in the guild, don't like the person running it, don't want to participate. For that reason, I don't think any one player should be in charge of others. Every player should be considered equal contractors for the guild that reports to a DM NPC for work or to build the guilds overall mission. Players can gain ranks in the guild, but this shouldn't effect their seniority over other players in the guild unless both parties are wanting to RP it that way, such as a knight and squire. Those ranks should just show tenure with the NPC and the willingness for the NPC to trust you with bigger, better, harder, tasks. Tasks that result in higher rewards. Then perhaps eventually, after the player has gained enough ranks, he can start offering suggestions to the NPC to request the guild do things. The NPC can then decide (AKA DM team) if it's in the best interest of the guild, and relay the information to it's agents. Basically all tasks and orders must be filtered through that single NPC or series of NPCs. It would make joining guilds more desirable and easier to learn how to communicate. No more individual player favoritism or discrimination, or if there is, not everyone will clearly see it on an open forum list when they bark orders down to rookies.

Too much work for the DM team. And that you don't like somebody isn't anyone's problem but your own.

I've been in a guild where I disliked its leader,. But that didn't affect my experience much, as I simply focused on the guildies that I did like and kept it cordial with the guild leader.

I've expressed this via PM, but with the recent DM comments—thank you for contributing to the dialogue!—I feel it necessary to repeat it here:

Having the ability to submit DM-support requests is awesome...but not really awesome if your Guild has to wait 6 weeks for a tangible response.

THIS is the issue why players call out for Guild DMs, I imagine, because it does seem like the current DM Team would prefer to run their non-guild based Events for random groups over supporting Guilds attempt to RP with the available world (NPCs).

This stands outside of when Guilds ask for things that just are not gonna fly on this Server, half-baked ideas, or outright fantasies that have no place in this fantasy world! All which should be easily and swiftly receiving a HELL NO response.

The response so far, to my privately sent statement repeated above, has been: overall, there are too many requests for the DM Team to answer, or to handle, or essentially to support. If you want to see the exact quote, I'll provide it. And, if this is the real underlying problem why Guilds suffer the lack of DM attention, then...what are the possible solutions?

A Player and/or a Guild can get a massive amount of RP accomplished in 6 weeks time. But they cannot do that if there actions are bottle-necked by hanging on DM response—and I mean response, not a Yes or NO, but an actual response! Meaning as well that results come much later!—else the Player/guild is accused then punished by god-modding.

Look, no matter what side of the fence you're playing on, we can all agree that DMs do not make a Guild great. Players, on the one hand, make a Guild exist, and are the blood and bones of the body, the Guild/faction itself. DMs, on the other hand, are the fulcrums for the Guild's ability to exist in the Game Environment, in terms of how role-play is conducted with the NPCs and mobs of that World. This is latter aspect is undeniable!

Yes, a Guild/Faction can surely exist purely on the merits, actions and WILL of the Players in it. But THAT is also RP in a Bubble, if you were to ask me. I mean, do I want to RP my dwarf inside of Kraak Helzak all day, waiting for other Players to come by and pull my dwarf's beard?!? Ha, sucker, that ain't gonna happen cause my dwarf has no beard! Tricked ya!!

But seriously, Guilds are supposed to have a greater function in the culture of a Server, are they not? Otherwise, really...what is their point? Why build up a Guild/Faction if it CANNOT get involved directly in what goes on in the Grand Realm? And THAT is what ONLY THE DMs CAN PROVIDE. Unless the DM Team is unofficially saying: "Godmod to your hearts delight as long as it doesn't bother others...."

So...how about greater DM/Guild partnerships? Sounds great, yes? DMs, tell us guild "leaders" what you need from us to help you! Approach us with developments in the IG landscape, and give us a chance to respond as a Guild Unit, and make the effort to be a part of the Lore of the Sword Coast! Don't abandon the Guilds to "make the first step."

This isn't rocket science, you know? It is really all about willingness and interest. And, communication. So, if there is no willingness and no interest, at least communicate THAT, so Guilds know what their true possibilities are. Thank you!

steve's point is real. it is actual and there are a lot of consequences to this reality. im not close enough to the source to really have much opinion to how it can be improved. i have ZERO knowledge of the structure of the admin.

focusing guild over non-guild in attention may not be advisable at all. i think this might be an overall issue with both the expectations of the players and the effectiveness of the staff. finding a spot where both are getting closer to each other is the best solution from my eyes.

players: lower your expectations from the staff. you are NOT special. you DONT deserve anything. entitlement is not cool. have fun.

staff: get organized. make waves. take chances. do work. have fun.

opinions expressed in the above post are not directed at anyone in particular. they are intended as a generalization to people of things that "might be" or "might not be". these opinions are not a reflection of anyone's post or any post sent after. if you are offended by my post i will apologize in advance. ".

Again, these are my viewpoints and not necessarily that of the DM team.

@Akroma: All I can offer is advise. If the guild isn't working for you OOC, find another guild or another group of players. Working in coordination with other players is more likely to get requests approved as it impacts more of the community than a single person. Direct oversight by the DM's on individual guilds is not currently feasible.

@Steve: We are working on catching up with the backlog and reducing wait times. I need to underline again though that we do not have the capacity currently to fairly spread ourselves across all the guilds, so the current system I described will have to suffice. I do apologize for the wait times and am personally working to improve that.

Ultimately, where I see we are at currently, is that guilds need to self-organize and inter-promote RP. DM's, when available, will step in to provide short storylines to promote RP and do our best to answer PMs. It's not RPing in a bubble if you are interacting with the rest of the player community. Please don't see this as being dismissive of your ideas but rather an attempt to present a realistic and blunt narrative about the current landscape.

If you are asking what we want from you, from my perspective it is this: recruit new PC's, set up player run events, involve other factions that makes sense, get out and spread the RP, make your guild thrive and influential on the server.

DM Theophanies wrote:If you are asking what we want from you, from my perspective it is this:

- recruit new PC's (5 new KH guild members) CHECK
- set up player run events (define event...but yes, we do this weekly(?)) CHECK
- involve other factions that makes sense (2 guilds/factions and counting) CHECK
- get out and spread the RP (relative...right now, dwarves of KH are trying to make KH better!) PENDING
- make your guild thrive and influential on the server. (subjective and subject to OOC acceptance, but...I know what you're pushing for here!) PENDING

DM Theophanies wrote:we do not have the capacity currently to fairly spread ourselves across all the guilds

This has been obvious for some time, obvious to the Players. It shouldn't have taken this long to be saying it. But also, it should not turn into a Default Response Message. I would say BGTSCC needs to recruit more DMs, but I also don't want the Team poaching from valuable Players needed to run these Guilds!

But here is a suggestion, in addition to all that has been said already: if Guilds/factions are simply bombarding the DM Team with requests, and it is mountain of "work" just get even, not to forget to mention ahead of the situation, then perhaps consider publishing a New Model where Guilds/factions should either operate in their own player-driven world, with minimal support expected, or, align the Guild to whatever the DMs are working on, as a Team (and be invited to it, of course).

Because if greatest outcome from the DM Team is possible when working together as a Team, supporting each other in Campaigns, and the greatest outcome of Guilds is when they can work together or in opposition around the active Campaigns of the Server, then really, for sake of game play enjoyment and actual interaction on a substantial level on a permanent server that is Rewarding for all, lets put off the minor, guild specific requests for isolated Storylines and Campaigns, and instead, promote a "Join a Guild and Enter into the Big World Role-play of Epic Campaigns!"

Am I making sense here? I hope so. I'll say it another way: from a personal standpoint, I would easily give up on the inner-KH guild RP requests sent up to the DM Team, if I know that the DM Team was working as a Group to involve all the active Guilds through IC invitation to participate in Big Time Campaigns. That way, I and my mates can still have our own player-driven inner Guild RP, not bother DMs to invest in the little details of our minor RP, while simultaneously working IC with or against other Guilds/Factions on the Epic Campaigns, because we know the DMs are expecting us to show up! And show up we will...mini-kegs and ale mugs-a-toasting for everyone!!! (except Orcs...sorry aaron...your guys get the axe! )

Because I know for a fact that the KH Guild started inventing "things to do" regarding the NPC world because otherwise there seemed to be no "in" to interacting with the Sword Coast (or whatever Campaigns that were going on, currently).

Essentially, consolidate the various efforts by minor population Guilds so that together, as a player/DM partnership, we're actually doing some grand RP together, instead of some of us sitting on the sidelines watching some Guilds get Events and posting lengthy appreciations, while other Guilds are still waiting weeks to just receive a tangible answer to request!

Not rocket science!!!!

I am glad to see KH is well on its way then. As for responding: well I've responded now, it will have to do (i've only been reinstated since Tuesday and I spent a good part of that writing for the campaign). We'll take your suggestions into consideration.

For now though, I just ask that you and the playerbase have patience with us. If anyone has outstanding requests, please bump them if you haven't heard from us in a week (or longer) and please PLEASE copy the entire DM team. We've got some great, hard working DM's on staff who are putting in a lot of work to get things in place so I look forward to the future.

Theo

Steve wrote: (except Orcs...sorry aaron...your guys get the axe! )

NO!! you will get the axe...


actually i cant back that up. orc numbers are pretty low.

Honestly, it's not really the staff's job to make the guilds noticed. They can run events. They give opportunities. But players are the only ones who "make guilds great". That said, more opportunities for all guilds (not just high population guilds) to join in RP events that tend to affect the whole server would be a good thing.

Of course, let's not discount the fact that DMs have real lives as well and they do a ton of work for this server either. Getting all salty over "lack of DM response" is not useful.

As one who doesnt want to read up 9 pages.... is there a summarize/conclussion whritten?

Nachti wrote:As one who doesnt want to read up 9 pages.... is there a summarize/conclussion whritten?

DM Theophanies wrote:...the playerbase have patience with us.

samb123 wrote:... players are the only ones who "make guilds great".

^ That's probably the heart of it.

It's important to note that we currently have 60 guilds with private guild forums.

Today, I poked 15 that hadn't had any activity in the past six months to see if they were safe to archive, or if the players involved in those groups wanted to revive them. But that still leaves 45 guilds that are currently active (or at least have had posts in their private forums this year).

This tally does not include guilds and more disorganized alliances that do not have a private guild forum.

In the meantime, we currently only have 24 Dungeon Masters. Even if all of our DMs were active all of the time (and they're not -- real life happens, burn out requires that some step away for a week or two to recharge their batteries, and so on), that still means guilds outnumber DMs almost 3 to 1 (or 2 to 1 if all of those quiet ones are archived). On top of all the other Dungeon Master work that goes on (answering questions, tech support, private player requests, their own events [the stuff DMs usually signed up to do], and campaigns, just to name a handful), this means that it's highly improbable (at this time) for every guild to get sustained DM attention and support.

So it's important that it's clear that no one should rely on extended DM support for the well-being or long-term health of their guilds. It's a nice bonus, and really does help bring stories together (or to fruition), when a DM is able to give one's guild a little attention; but it's not something that can likely be sustained on a weekly basis. Not at present workloads and capacities.