My observations after "no grind at the other side" Upgrade

[aaron22]

You know those restrictions come from UDers being on the surface in the first place, not surfacers coming in Underdark. Also the Upperdark was intoduced to have a set of areas where the two sides can interact without KoS threat. Your suggestions won't solve this and will end the Upperdark specificities.

Something to consider. The players are metaphorical children and the admin is the metaphorical parents. The parents want what is best for the children. And the children want what is best for themselves. But the children do not necessarily know what is best for themselves and the parents do not necessarily know how to create what is best for the children. If the parents punish the children too much the children will hate the parents. If the parents do not punish the children enough, they will be spoiled and a detriment to not only the other children but also to themselves and the parents. Somewhere in the middle is the right spot. Any parent will know that there is no perfect method for handling this for every child let alone trying to create rules to fill this for hundreds. But from my limited perspective the parents lean on a too leanant parenting. Mostly because the children don't want any boundaries even if the boundaries are created in their best interest in mind. So the children get mad at the littlest boundary placed before them. The children, being self interested, will create excuses and believable scenarios to try and manipulate the parents into removing boundaries. But the parents must also try and see if this is a tool for manipulation or actually a boundary placed that is a detriment to the children's growth. Not easy being a parent.

With that said, most of us are not actually children. So we have a sense of bigger picture and perception far greater than a child would. But I also think that deep down in our base psychology there lies a child. And sometimes that child inside us convinces ourselves to fight against the boundaries even at the expense of a better all because your child has convinced us a greater self.

With all this said I think we should really think about what we are and what the admin are trying to do. As much as my inner child wants to fight the boundaries, I must realize that I do not alwsys know what is actually best for me.

Situations like the PvP encounter occur too often. When something like this happens report it and let the parents decide who is right or wrong. Or even better. Resolve it among yourselves. A solution where everyone is happy was in there somewhere. Find it. Probably better than what the admin will decide for you.

[metaquad4]

My observations so far is that is seems to kill a fair bit of organic RP that occurs. It generally creates a bit of a sour mood with regard to adventuring RP.

For my anecdote, my character encountered a Deep Gnome in Soubar. They wanted to go on an adventure together, but because of the mechanical limitations I felt kinda bad through the entire exchange because the character wouldn't get any XP or loot. It created kind of a dulled mood, where it wouldn't be exciting to go adventure together. Of course, we still got to RP for a bit, but it really killed it for everyone OOCly.

I think its a very toxic change for the server as a whole, and it really is a step back from the inclusive mentality that has driven this server forward.

No, adventuring shouldn't nessecarily be a safe thing, especially in places where races hate eachother. But that is the same for everyone. Tieflings are hated in some places, should they arbatrarily get no XP in the places they are disliked? What about orcs? It just makes very little sense and it doesn't really achieve much of anything.

[Thorsson]

Yes, wouldn't it be fun for surface Elves to go adventuring with their Drow cousins? One could hug trees while the other flayed people alive. Imagine the roleplay!

[Planehopper]

For my anecdote, my character encountered a Deep Gnome in Soubar. They wanted to go on an adventure together, but because of the mechanical limitations I felt kinda bad through the entire exchange because the character wouldn't get any XP or loot. It created kind of a dulled mood, where it wouldn't be exciting to go adventure together. Of course, we still got to RP for a bit, but it really killed it for everyone OOCly.

Did the gnome have a valid, "DM-ok" RP reason (per the current rules) , that wasn't exploring or adventuring? Because if not, then the mechanics basically did what they were designed to do, by removing incentive to be in the opposite realm without a DM sanctioned RP reason. And did so without taking up DM time.

[Tekill]

My svirv was on the surface today, so it was me, they met in Soubar. A Good RP exchange.

So, I was in the UD and it seemed the weekly quests did not reset so far this week. So no questing for me today.
There were no other players on down there- at least not in Rockrun. I did not want to go to Sshamath and RP with the drow- there was literally on 2 others on in the UD and they were scattered around down there.
I did not want to grind- not much into grinding anymore - feels like work to me.

I had been planning on a pilgrimage to find a mountain. Being a druid of Grumbar seeing a mountain from the other side was important.
This was my second attempt to find mountains. I did not get very far the first time. But at least on that occasion I figured out the name of the mountain I wanted to find.
This trip, I fist RP'd staying a 'day' in Soubar (to avoid sunlight). I ran into a bunch of adventurers and treasure hunters that wanted to hire me to seek fame and fortune with them. I had to say no for the sake of game rules. Bit of a bummer.
So next night I made it to the Baldurs Gate farmlands. (I may have had to RP sleeping in a cave during daylight between soubar and the Gate). The locals at the Gate did not take kindly to me upon seeing me without my helm on. But a nice elven woman stuck up for me and gave me directions to get to Nashkell.
South along the Trade way I ventured. The guards along the bridge made me remove my helm. They did not like what they saw - they threatened to arrest me, bringing up some trumped up charges, but the effort smacked too much of effort for them, and so they let me go.
I slept in the hay loft at the Pheonix Company lodge. After my altercation with the locals at the BG east gate, I was not in any hurry to seek out any more surfacers. So I slept in hay instead of asking the people at PC to stay with them.
Eventually I made it to the Friendly Arms Inn. I met some more nice elves who helped me plot the rest of my journey to the Cloudpeaks. I have sort of stopped there as the night was slowly moving on and daylight was not far off. Although I did scout ahead a bit- I should be albe to make it to Bereghost if I travel fast. I would hate to wait out the day in goblin caves, but will!.
Oh yeah, I also asked the friendly elves, about thier kingdom...seems they have a small city close by. They did not invite me to stay with them...but you know, like, whatever.
Im going to see if they will let me into the Inn so I can stay there a day or two ((I asked a DM he said I will get looked at like I'm some sort of freak but that I wont get turned away))...I will need rest up a bit as its a long way from Rockrun to the FAI and I have so much further to travel. My poor svirv feet are barking at me!
I will continue my journey later...perhaps pay some surfacers to escort me. I am going to try some surface ales while at the FAI...hang out with Bentley, see how the gnomes on the other side roll.

One thing I discovered odd, was that so many of the adventurers I met were like wow your crazy to be up here- what are you doing up here, your cray-zay. But these same people were also so casual about having visited Rockrun. I was nuts for going from the Upperdark to the surface but it was totally natural for them to travel to Rockrun. I wanted to ask why but my Svirv would think it totally normal for folk wanting to escape the wretched surface to find solace in the paradise that is Rockrun.

But it does seem a bit unfair for us Svirvs. We are not an evil race. We are not even located in the Underdark. There are even less of us then the denizens of Sshamath which are still few themselves.
Sufacers can come to my territory. Grind and adventure and reap the whirlwind all they want without a second thought. But I cant go to thier territory, and earn get exp and treasure?!
I cant go on a whim, that I need a "good" reason to be there. I
I have all these rules but there are more surface players seen hanging out in Rockrun than actual Rockrun players.
I cant even enter the Dwarven city from the Underdark. I have to got through the ogre caves then enter through their front door. Now that's not right.

Double standards. tsk tsk tsk.....

[NegInfinity]

Did the gnome have a valid, "DM-ok" RP reason (per the current rules) , that wasn't exploring or adventuring? Because if not, then the mechanics basically did what they were designed to do, by removing incentive to be in the opposite realm without a DM sanctioned RP reason. And did so without taking up DM time.

While playing an UD char I questioned one of the DMs regarding the rules of travelling to the other side, and response I"ve got was:

You are not require to warn DM team in advance that you're going to the other side. You're not required to coordinate the travel with them either.

However, you should have a reason ready for situation the DM is around. If they ask, you should be able to provide it on the spot, and otherwise you'll get kicked back to your realm.

Which is quite different from situation in the past.

[NegInfinity]

By the way, I'm not sure if anyone else noticed, but Flaming Fist currently pays 15k per dead drow. Check the laws of the land section. Then think of the money.

----

In all honesty, 'no xp' script should be disabled. Then the players will have a good motivation to drive flaming fist bankrupt.

And at least my characters will have something to do after logging on...

[Diamore]

It'll lock UD in the box, cut off all UD<->Surface interactions and slowly kill off UD population completely.

Either way, I'd advise to roll level 1 UD character play a bit, see how it is, and then rethink your position.

I hate the Underdark.

I have tried several times before the upperdark was added and never made it past level 6. Because of difficulty navigating, limited areas to explore, hostility from literally everyone I encountered, crappy hybrid language and no clear direction or organisation outside of "follow me or die". I have no intentions of trying again.

The UD needs reasons to keep players from leaving and keep characters exploring and rping there. Because the UD as it stands is still not a fun place to play for most players.

To me, it makes perfect sense for the Players to want to leave because it is so damned horrible and oppressive. What doesn't make sense, is seeing how many Characters end up on the surface. Those players who start off wanting to play there quickly leave for reasons mentioned in another thread. While many of those who stick around want to leave, but keep playing their Drow or whatever. So suddenly the surface is where they are at.

Give UD characters their mini-maps back
Give UD all of the Upperdark levels
Remove all routes to and from the surface
Have all movement between surface and UD organised by DMs or by application
Existing UD characters on surface select which they will stay on. Permanently
Have guilds able to purchase a specific portal with a cost(gold/xp/tokens) to use that moves them to an allied guild on the surface. Swifnerblin to Dwarves for example.

On the flip side, surface players shouldn't regularly see or hear about Drow and Swifnerblin just showing up or being visited. These should be rare events or mostly secret. Rockrun for example, should only be accessible by guilds who are trusted enough to be allowed to find them. Not just whoever stumbles in.

[Invoker]

I hate the Underdark.

....Those players who start off wanting to play there quickly leave for reasons mentioned in another thread. While many of those who stick around want to leave, but keep playing their Drow or whatever. So suddenly the surface is where they are at.

Yes, that's the problem with that thread.

It should be approached differently, as I tried to suggest:

Aside from the ECL +2, and the stat attributes that doesn't fit in your build as well as the recent game mechanic changes. I would like to hear your opinions.

In my opinion, it's the wrong way to go about it.

I'd open a different thread, called "What prompted you to create and play a Main UD character"?

That, of course, if you wish to attract more people instead of scaring them away.

Changing perceived negative aspects won't solve much (it will make some happy, and disturb others...de gustibus non est disputandum, and all that good jazz).

It's building up around the positives that makes the difference. This is valid for any management job, by the way, not just limited to the UD.

[Steve]

I will need rest up a bit as its a long way from Rockrun to the FAI...

Not to be making an example out of Tekill or anything, but I think this is a yuuuuge problem with the UD/Surface "experience" (or lack of).

What I mean is: the travel between Upperdark/Underdark and the Surface (not to mention horizontal distances on the Surface) is taken for granted in ease and possibility. It should be FRICKIN' RARE, if anything. Just because mechanically it is so ridiculously easy, just belittles the Lore of the Sword Coast/Forgotten Realms.

And honestly, I hate that. I mean, really hate that. It is a form of abuse to give into Player convenience. Even the Light Blindness or Darkness blindness is a sad and pathetic attempt to imply a "difficulty" when essentially traveling from the Earth to Mars...gee, all I have to do is worry about a minor stat decrease or falling down, but otherwise, hey...let's chat with that Elf over there!!!

On one hand, I think it is great that BGTSCC has the Underdark/Upperdark and the Surface, since having these incredible opposites available to Role-play should give us Players and us DMs a plethora of options to create Epic Stories. But on the other hand, I see little consequence given the Canon Lore-based nature of the barely existing connection between these two Realms, and THAT is a (do-me) pity.

If you treat the UD/Surface connections like an escalator at the Mall of America, so you can get from Toys R Us to Candy's Cookie Cart just because there ain't nobody else around in your TOTALLY DIFFERENT REALM OF CHOICE BASED ON YOUR PLAYER CHOICE OF RACE, well, thanks...you are really helping keep some standard of respectful RP alive.



Again, I'm not calling out Tekill or anyone in particular—though Tekill's post did "wake up" in me the same crap that always bother me—though it might seem like I'm on his case. But his story of his Svirf does directly show another yuuuge issue:

If UD/Upperdak PCs feel the need to go to the Surface in order to have some RP interaction with other "live" Characters (Players), then maybe the UD needs to be rethought as to its existence on this Server. Because if it is essentially its "own" Realm, but isn't satisfying the Players that are down there—at least the majority of them—and they feel "forced" or the need to bring it up to the Surface just to have some experience other than mob grinding—which i hear is a) difficult, b) limited and even more boring than the Surface—then:

Why do we still have the UD in the first place? So 5-6 Players can RP down there?

[Nemni]

How about a limited ability to get exp and loot while on the other side ? Such as 5 loot containers and 1000 exp per reset. Past that we're already entering the grinding and looting territory.

I think this is a good compromise as it somewhat simulates a raid, which is what most UD races would be doing on the surface. But I think it would be better to raise the limit but put it per week (rather than reset), so people can play at whatever schedule they prefer.

If it's possible I would also suggest reducing/removing the race spell resistance when on the surface. That way anyone who does come on top must play without any substantial advantage.

Changing it this way would be far better than having a rule that drastically reduces peoples ability to play together. This is after all a small population multiplayer game.

[Tekill]

Again, I'm not calling out Tekill or anyone in particular—though Tekill's post did "wake up" in me the same crap that always bother me—though it might seem like I'm on his case.

*self edit* removed a tasteless joke. tee hee.

Well I did sort of ask for it- for posting the experience of my UD'ers adventure on the surface. But it suits the title of this thread so well.
I wont get defensive but I feel it is important that I clarify, that in my post I was was planning a trip to see a mountain AND that I was bored.

Steve:
Are you saying you do not want ANY mixing of surface and UD RP, at all?
And that your reason is, its because of geography?

To answer:
1st) The mechanics issue in regarding the perspective of distance in game is not just a burden worn by the UD travellers. Perhaps how we deal with travel in game should be discussed in its own thread. Yes the Upper Dark is far and the UD is farther, but so are a lot of other locations on the server.
2nd) Not everyone considers or assumes the UD as "its own realm". This is sort of the point of debate on this thread. There is a lot of grey area regarding our opinions about if and how much interaction is realistic between Surfacers and UD'ers. Perhaps you may want to elaborate your assumtion that they are different realms. Are we talking Calimshan different Kara-Tur different or Dragonlance different?
3rd)

And honestly, I hate that. I mean, really hate that. It is a form of abuse

...The Earth to Mars? C'mon, really?!

Im not going to let ten year old game mechanics impede my experience. Of course Im going to want to travel from the surface to the underdark and visa versa! Dont be silly- think of the adventure, people!
I made it only halfway and had a fun experience. Next time I will use travel by plant spells and I will see that mountain yet!

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

How about a limited ability to get exp and loot while on the other side ? Such as 5 loot containers and 1000 exp per reset. Past that we're already entering the grinding and looting territory.

I think this is a good compromise as it somewhat simulates a raid, which is what most UD races would be doing on the surface. But I think it would be better to raise the limit but put it per week (rather than reset), so people can play at whatever schedule they prefer.

If it's possible I would also suggest reducing/removing the race spell resistance when on the surface. That way anyone who does come on top must play without any substantial advantage.

Changing it this way would be far better than having a rule that drastically reduces peoples ability to play together. This is after all a small population multiplayer game.

This is a bad compromise for UDers. Expanding the neutral zone (Upperdark) to Northern surface territories and Epic areas sounds much more fair (and even in this case surfacers will have more content available).

P.S. I really want to remove those restrictions at all but looks like it won't happen...

[Steve]

Steve:
Are you saying you do not want ANY mixing of surface and UD RP, at all?
And that your reason is, its because of geography?

I’ve always thought that the Upperdark would become a place where the Surface and the Underdark would “meet,” in terms of a half-way point between two extremes. It would be a place dark enough for UD denizens, and not too disorienting for Surface adventurers who most likely had dungeonearing experience and cave spelunking experience. It would be a place where conflict RP could happen, where new Stories could be manifested out of a Lore-based understanding of what the Underdark and its Races mean to Surfacers, and what the Surface and its Races mean to Underdarkers. Thus, it would be a new Layer of Role-play that would quell any needs for Drow at the FAI campfire, or Paladins having Imp Finger Tea at Gloura’s.

But what my experience has been is the Upperdark turned into the #1 grind spot for Surfacers, a instant Uber gear Shop and abuse of the Custom Item NPC (Rockrun), a justifiable route for faster get-go to the Surface or vice versa, and essentially a “land” in which little or no Campaigns are being waged, by DMs or Players.

What I am saying is I WANT AND SUPPORT MIXING! But what I want to see and want to support MORE is something give credit to the Lore for both what the Surface truly is for UDers—a place you will burn in and most likely die in—and for what the Underdark truly is for Surfacers—a place you’ll suffocate or go mad in and most likely die in.

I’m not making this shit up! Go read the damn Source Books.

Geography plays a part, yes. But what isn’t playing a part is Players and DMs not respecting the situation. Yes, we treat the relationship of the UD <—> Surface like easy peesy lemon squeezy let’shavefuncausewe’reboredorabadarsewizardsoletstreachthesebadelvesalessonandtaketheircookiesbacktothrsurfaceforFAIkumbyyaa!

Awesome...not.

Allowing for XP gain ONLY in the Upperdark by either side, is a mechanical Strike we’ve been handed cause otherwise Players treat the Environment like shit.

As I think more about, it is a clever way to make Players “pay” for their misdeeds. And what is even more hilariously smart and teasing us smartarse-Lore-abusers is that PCs can STILL earn RP XP when on the other Far Side...so you can’t bitch that the Staff is trying to take away your Fun.

Role-play is Fun for you, right?!?

PS— when I say Earth versus Mars, it is because literally, according to Canon Lore, 90% of the UD should be insta-death for about all but the hardiest of Surfacers. And IG mechanically, it’s pathetically easy. For Drow on the Surface, one should liken it to how a Vampire would fear the Sun. Or pretty damn near to that!

I’ll just leave this here: if you want to RP in either Realm, then roll up a Character that comes from that Realm, and RP your arse off there, for others that are also there. THERE IS NO FINER GIFT YOU CAN GIVE THAN THAT!

[Tekill]

90% of the UD should be insta-death for about all but the hardiest of Surfacers.

And about 90%of the surfacers are low level commoners...so yeah statistic adds up.