Death exp condensed

[stevebarracuda]

@ Void,
You made some rather heavy statements here. First and foremost, it seems that so many changes to the BG server require other supportive changes to make anything seem worth changing, which I can understand is like building a brick wall from the top down. No fun.

Death penalties like a debuff being absolved or mitigated in a Tavern will not at all guarantee there will be more RP in taverns. Players have a choice to spawn in a tavern and most will just take a coffee break and AFK until the timer runs out.

This is rather negative view on the player base then. If the timer is long, say 10 RL hours, then the player will probably log, not visit a tavern. Or, they'd just log onto another PC, since most players here have multiple toons they play. How about that for negative?!?

If the player just logs off however, that opens room on the server for another player that maybe is more interesting in RPing that the one leaving....

Those are my top four main reason why an exterior area will ALWAYS be more an obvious choice for players to congregate.

Just remove the exterior areas. Bye bye campfire. If you're so concerned about exterior areas, make a square/plaza in BG have a higher-to-RP XP ratio, and bring life into the city that way?

But even so, that by now] means RP XP can't be turned up in inns/taverns. Why not? Is it because you're unhappy with an idea players might type their way to level 30 around a table? Or, is it because you know about the macro-text bug that lets players get mass RP XP, up to the daily limit, within about 10 minutes?!?

Adding value to Taverns won't change this that much, especially if it is only meant to mitigate death penalties for those who are more proned to dying due to carelessness (IE; THE SOLO'IST) since their primary motivation is level progression and anything that hampers that will only become a niusance not a means to dissuade them from their priority to level first and RP later.

Yes, dying IS a nuisance...actually, it should be a SERIOUS thing, something nobody (RPer, grinder, soloist) can ignore IG. Stat penalties can't be ignored. Stat penalties slow down leveling, because you don't have the same CON, or STR.

But basically, stat penalties add a sense of realism to either reaching near death, or being knocked on your arse by a big brut.

As far as the elitist attitude of action RP vs Social RP. That doesn't even register with me. I don't care what you do as long as you do it within the rules and in character.

I actually don't believe you on this comment, after the many posts I've read of yours. You do care about people RPing their character sheet, and about RPing Death, and about exploits, and about abuse, and about fair play.

Considering how many players DO NOT rp their character sheets around BG, because there is no oversight on this, arguing that if something played "within the rules" can also mean: "cheat within the rules."

As for the issue with how RP'able is Death? <snip> The longer you spend reaching your end game the more opportunities you might have to immerse and experience the RP of others and learn about the lore of the setting perhaps even research more of the setting than you would have intially done so if the end-game came so quickly.

Do so many players reach lvl 30 and just log off to never return again? It is my experience that the majority of BG players have mostly mid-teens toons, and continue to invent new biographies and class-combos to explore both via RP and the game mechanics. They rarely reach any "end-game" with these toons, besides maybe boredom. Or, unless they join the Permadeath Club.

And, what's wrong with those players that just want the 2 month experience of leveling and leaving? Let them leave.

Those players that wish to stay here and develop our PCs specifically in this PW will stay, whether or not we reach level 30.

Death, as it currently stands, is just an annoyance, nothing more. It coud be so much more, if it had a non-ignorable lasting effect.

It's not a perfect system but it's gotten us pretty far for the last four years running. Overtime, perhaps there will be modifications but I would never say an improvement since most of us will never agree on what is an improvement on things like penalties and consequences.

Yes, true. Some of us players would hope that we can help make it better. But then again, this ain't no democracy...thank god.

[MercTroop]

A campfire allows people to pass through easily, and RP with out going through additional transitions. It kind of acts like a bridge between all RP types as they all generally go through this one localized area.

What I don't under stand especially in areas where a camp fire is directly set up in front of a tavern, why isn't the tavern built directly into the map?

Having a tavern built directly into a map if done right can do all the things a camp fire does. Or even a make shift bar built from wagons and tents. Fringe or make shift taverns is not a new concept to fantasy setting. I made a similar suggestion like this a while ago to make certain buildings like tavern, churches, and merchants built into the map so going through a city is seamless.

Regardless of what is done, people who level first then RP level will do it no matter the penalty. People like that shouldn't even be mentioned, because no matter what they are going to do that. Sort of like grinders, if its what makes them happy and they aren't damaging any ones good time they should be free to do what ever.

The Void I'm pretty sure you've been most open DM about wanting applications and restrictions on PC's to control RP. If you didn't care how people Rped as long as its with in the rules you'd never bring up subjects like those.

As I've always said the DM's should write official class hand books for all the basic classes, that offer tips and suggestions on how to RP a class. So that a player new to the class has some thing to help guide them, but isn't enforced like a law allowing creative freedom. I've attempted to start creating some but no DM input has been given on the subject. Yea I'm shameless and self advertise.

Issue isn't wanton use of spells with no draw back, its the lack of information provided to the player. It's nice that domains are restricted by god, but by the same notion I would think each God would have detailed write up on dogma and how clerics might RP the lore. That is how you get good character development, by informing players.

There is also the issue of people just wanting to play good PC' who raise strangers, even if its a stupid idea. One day my PC gonna kill one of these clerics in a delirious rage brought on by the shock of coming back to life.

Much like head DM who first started here, I didn't know much about dnd when I came to nwn2 from nwn. Expecting every one to be a lore buff is rather unfair. Best RPers I see are those who typically know a great deal about the race and class combination they are playing. This happens by informing the player.

Some MMO's don't use exp penalties, particularly those that don't focus on grinding. I can bet you on nwn servers with debuff it has always lasted hours, rather than minutes. With the server suffering many other poor design choices. If people just log in for hours at a time and afk, the server should realize the down time is too long.

I hope XP sink stuff was just The Void trolling. Xp sinks on stuff like item creation and spells in games is up there with one of the worse design choices made by a game developer. To my knowledge only two games exist with a gold sink where it was done well, DnD is not in that list.

Any thing is Rp'able its DnD. All you need is patience to read through often times hilarious and open to interpretation lore.

People seem to have been overly focused on how the current system punishes mainly players who solo. Debuff that I proposed would also effect people in a party. So if players don't defend each other well, they will still suffer consequences of death. Another player won't be able to get out of the death penalty by having a party member be the last man standing.

It's a universal hit to every death, there should no longer be such a thing as a get out of death free.

In order to keep players interested in going to a NPC. NPC's raises could incur a lessor debuff.

Taverns could be turned into a gold sink as well if desired.

[Xanfyrst]

What I don't under stand especially in areas where a camp fire is directly set up in front of a tavern, why isn't the tavern built directly into the map?

Yeah, wondered that myself. Why have a transition into some exterior map instead of having it all in one single map?

[TheVoid]

Design one and use your toolset to bring us visuals of what you think would be suitable. As far as area designing it's normally the common practice to use interiors for building structures not overly large exteriors. Interiors are more efficient and use less space than an exterior that would require a bit more detail, especially texturing and more placeables (which means higher framerates) to get the look and feel of an interior space.

Sometimes an exterior tavern is just as an absurd concept as a campfire area. The way it can be designed is often very limiting since there are no other ways to really emphasize dimension and especially a ceiling if you were to build a tavern from scratch using an exterior area. Otherwise, every tavern would be akin to an al fresco cafe... which looks pretty jarring especially when inclimate whether starts to hit.

Right now, we are addressing way to many topics. Taverns vs campfire, powerbuilds vs RP builds, Death RP for dying, etc...

The main point is the death penalty. It is a penalty which means something is taken. We prefer to take XP since it is a universal hit. Stat debuffs are an alternative, but if it were to ever make it in game it would be a choice. Take the Xp hit or sit and be debuffed for a duration of a timer. That duration will not be light and I doubt that anyone here will ever agree on a correct amount of time it will take for a debuff to wear off.

Again, I played in pw's with no xp penalty with debuffs with a similar spawn and CR system as ours. it got out of hand, every other day there was a character reaching epic and retiring to make a new one. As to why we care? No one can keep up with that amount of entropy, DM's feel less inclined to care about your character because most players will view it as an open invitation or a race to 30. Yes, you can say that is the minority but it's not. It is the majority and I am not being pessemistic or negative, it's being realistic since we have the DM client and reporting tools and you do not. Leveling is something we feel should take a time but not be unreachable.

The current system does that to a degree we are comfortable with, the proposed system is all theory and no practice. All we can do is speculate on it's success or failure or give input from personal experience with similar systems, which I have shared and have reported my opinion on. Removing levels, debuffs, etc.... are not very favorable to many in practice. It is the reason why DM's do not enervate or level drain your characters or mess with your stats when you have done something that would have crippled your character. It tends to make people more enraged that their character has become nearly useless and their time is wasted until the debuffs are lifted.

Unfortunately, by losing xp the consequence is that a determined player will start grinding to regain their losses. The thing is... here, that is ACCEPTABLE. Because it does keep you active. We are not trying to actively deter players from grinding. We don't encourage it but most importantly, we do not discourage it.

As far as my personal opinion about RP, that is my personal opinion which is separate from what I do as the current headDM. What I want is not what is always best for the PW, which is why I have not placed heavy handed requirements on who, how, and what people play here. I have to assimilate to what is required of myself and remove my personal bias to the best of my ability, when it comes to policies that I favor but are NOT part of the foundation in which this module was built upon.

Xp sinks are reasonable, because the only fallout there is would be the need to grind to recover lost XP which again, is not illegal. But grinding is not the only way to retrieve lost xp. Questing, RP XP, Biography submission, DM events are all alternatives to replenish lost XP and avenues in which you can hopefully develop your character relying less on the combat engine.

Concerning RP death, the conclusion of an IC death and how plausible it is for a character to RP death is not a very relevant arguement for the alternative. Again, how do you explain a stat debuff when you were obviously killed by a creature that wouldn't leave you alive when you died alone? Sorry, that is definately a strawman arguement.

In conclusion, I do not find that the current system is that fundamentally flawed and need of being replaced with a theoritical one. That is my assessment, though I am not a script developer nor the admin. I have leveled 5 characters three of which to level 30. I also have a slew of characters in the mid level range and some concepts that never seen fruition. I have had to level under the same conditions everyone has, with the same spawns, the same risks and the same rewards. I know when I make a mistake I need to pay for it, I accept that and I am glad that it is only XP and not something more ridiculously expensive in addition to a 100xp/level loss (item loss, gold loss, permadeath strikes, etc)... Temporary debuffs on a short duration timer that can be bought down with gold or timed in half in locations seems a bit too easy and I don't see it contributing much in terms of RP.

If it is too deter grinding back losses, there really isn't a need for that since grinding is not an illegal activity. If it is too explain plausible survival from being defeated by a spawn in PVE, it doesn't do that convincingly enough since some scenarios you would have essentially died and would be in need of a raise from death or divine intervention AKA Myrkul.

[tooley1chris]

Something that I havnt seen brought up is accidental deaths. How many times have your toons been eaten by the lag monster? Killed during a server or personal system crash? Or simply log in to find Myrkul has unfinished business with you though you know you saved alive last time IG?
You're not only punishing people who take chances with death but those who lagged out in an area that they should have been reasonably safe had they actual control of their toon. This happened to me just last night. I curse and shake my fist because I lost 1500 xp but I would have been EXTREMELY frustrasted had the penalty been worse. There needs to be balance. If I can earn back 1500 xp back by grinding for an hour or RPing for Two or three hours or a mix of both Im ok with that. If it takes a day or more of play because my character is further NERFED than the class probably already is with a time debuff then it probably isn't worth the effort. IMO doing one or the other( xp loss or debuff) ends with same effect. Time to replenish the loss. Both implemented and the rewards don't balance with the loss. What's wrong with current system again? People not respecting death or RPing it to someone else's liking? Lost track. When you play other games like say Skyrim as example and your toon dies don't we all just reload a saved game?

[MercTroop]

@ The Void

All the topics are relative tavern suggestion because its what I suggested as a place that can be given more worth. Addresses issues of why people don't really use taverns vs a camp fire. At which point I gave a suggestion on how to make a tavern built onto the map. Which connects to RP. For some reason good game play cannot be a sole factor on Rp servers, so we have to discuss how this would be logical for RPers or contribute to RP. Like any discussion revolving around RP, power gamers are brought up.

If we take what you said about people afking on the server you played with debuff, as I said before it was due to poor design. Idea is for the debuff to last minutes, not last hours or even days. People leveling up rapidly was a result of the servers character progression time line. Leveling process can easily be controlled through adjusting monster experience and calculating how long a generic build like a level 30 fighter would take to hit 30. Obviously more time put in the quicker a person will level.

Then adjusting when factoring in party experience, I don't think RP experience should be part of the equation when determining level progression time lines.

Loss of Exp is a poor way to control progression, there is no guarantee a player will die. With the way current system is set up there is no guarantee a player will even take the experience hit.

Also longer leveling does not equal better character development, I'm not even sure how developers got this idea. It's one thing to have majority of players log in take awhile to level up, it creates a sense of investment and connection to a character. When you take it too far you create a disconnect of the intentions of DnD, people take so long to level up they forget about RPing levels, or to include RPing feats into their RP. Meaning of classes is potentially lost, people lose sight of what it means to be a specific class or race. Longer play time does not equal a deeper connection between PC and DM either if any at all.

To me almost all of the story telling is told through areas the devs design and other player RP.

Complaining about level variations between players, or people eventually hitting 30 is pointless. Nature of the game will always have level variations, in any game people will always hit the end game.

Debuff timer might contribute little to RP. If it contributes even just a tiny amount of RP. it would of already far exceeded where the current system has failed.

Allowing temples to bring people back with a reduced penalty, or implementing a cost to reduce timer when going to a tavern creates a gold sink. It contributes to the feeling that gold has value, adds to feeling of player control. Player can choose to suffer full debuff timer or perhaps go to a tavern, if timer requires gold to reduce the timer. Then they have the choice to reduce penalty of death with another resource, nothing is free.

XP sinks as in removing experience from players for them to get some kind of benefit are a terrible game play design. Would require another thread just to explain why.

@ tooley1chris we have talked about how lag, or just bad timing on monsters spawning in can lead to accidental deaths. Once any PC hits level 5 I would say its relatively easy to avoid death if your careful.

Complaint was that the current system is flawed, in design, intention, and execution. So a different death system was proposed.

While they both require time. Xp loss requires a greater amount because experience is static, and challenges grow harder. As I explained in my opening post when I wrote about potential character progression. On a epic level PC a single death can require days of grinding back to where you were. Recovery time goes up less optimized your build is, stronger your PC is the shorter the timer of your death penalty becomes.

Current system also allows players to completely avoid recovery time through the use of other players.

Debuff proposed incurs a penalty that at most should be with in a half hour penalty on the player. Does not give the feeling of your grinding to get back to where you were. Once you serve your time, then the penalties of death end. Players don't lose progression, but can actually continue to build on it through RP exp if they choose to. It also equalizes the penalty and recovery time for all builds, some one who min maxed will not be in better shape to recover from death penalty than some one who didn't.

Every one pays recovery time, equally regardless of death with the debuff system proposed. Just having a party member around to raise you does not save you from the time penalty you will suffer for dying.

[TheVoid]

You are mistaken, there is a connection with playing a character longer and DM interest. DM's will watch player characters and one key criteria is consistency amongest many others.

If a player rushes to 30 we will basically overlook them since their progression has been completed in a blink of an eye with no real story telling or RP that we can have and a handle on. I am not going to condone a system that allows speed leveling and a half hour debuff will not keep progression as it is now. I am alright with the system if progression was the same rate but at the variable you have expressed it will not be and players will shrug off death as light consequence and keep pursuing the path to faster progression.

I am not optimistic that it will promote any RP at all and the little it does if any will not pay off the time it will take to develop this and rebalance it and debug it for each death scenario that may come about.

Sorry, no one relies solely on debuff system to compensate for death penalties. There is and will always be a tangible loss because it is a risk and reward game. You hedge your bets using the assets you have, if you lose it gets taken, if you win you get rewarded. You might think it is flawed and perhaps it is not the most ideal but it works as is intended for staff purposes. The debuff system does not replace adequately what the staff needs and reducing the XP rates from spawns is even more of an unpopular idea, nothing demoralizes players to adventure more than decreasing values on what they were gaining before.

[MercTroop]

Watching me is not building a connection with me. Having to progress longer does not mean the DM's under stand my character any better than they did from level one. Don't miss under stand this is not me generalizing every one, this is just my experience. I doubt my experience is some thing I alone am encountering.

Forums are suppose to act as a supplement main RP comes from in game. Unless you test characters intentions with mini events to gauge reactions or motivations then your learning nothing. That is not what the slow down of progression is being used for, or perhaps it is merely a case of few people slipping through the cracks?

I did explain duality issues of players progressing too fast, or players progressing too slow. People just choose to focus on the too fast aspect, ignoring issues of what happens when things progress too slow.

How is a debuff penalty not a tangible loss?

What was proposed has real implications and effects on players. -4 debuff with potential of energy drain once you hit level 15 is nothing players shrug off lightly.

Feels like the thread is going in a circle now. I've already touched on how players can take the gambled loss out of the equation entirely. Not addressing the issue means its ok that players essentially cheat death and can potentially avoid any type of penalty completely.

If staff has a character progression time line, they can present it to the players make valid reasons for nerfs or buffs that players can under stand.

Current experience gain system does not need a reduction with the changes proposed. System is already a grind, why would you make it into more of a grind. There is nothing saying debuff system will increase experience gain, in the current system no one has a character progression time line. Saying it will create level 30's rapidly is just speculation, may not have any basis when you consider how players can get out of the current death penalty.

[slumpy]

this is why debating is pointless, especially when one side of the argument is completely untested in the actual game environment. You guys are basically arguing untried theories, which is all well and good, but ultimately, you can never know which will work better until you try both of them. I really don't see this going beyond the hypothesis stage of the "scientific process" because changing a game mechanic for the sake of testing it for a short period might mean a nightmare for the scripters and builders. It's just not worth the manpower to test something that might not work.

(although I would personally LOVE a change to the death penalty system)

I'm actually extremely impressed with the regularity with which the TSCC team produces new content. It's amazing to me how a group of people working on a game in their spare time for no money can produce content just as good as any AAA developer in a fraction of the time. less bureaucracy, maybe, fewer hoops to jump through, fewer people to answer to, no publisher breathing down your neck, etc... But that has nothing to do with with this.

[mrieder79]

The death penalty is just fine. It makes it more fun.

[sobebop]

i would be in favor of keeping it the same, but adding the debuff on spawn, or rez.

my only issue here with dying, is when it's the lag monster, or something similar.

[Luna]

Hmm, I thought at one point we were going to add some kind of stat penalty if you died which would be temporary.
Forgot what happened with that.

[Kenshin]

Hmm, I thought at one point we were going to add some kind of stat penalty if you died which would be temporary.
Forgot what happened with that.

Probably for the best.

[Eclypticon]

*spontaneously vomits* Oh, goodness, I feel much better.

[Khaine]

Edit: Balls...seems someone already addressed this....nvm

I played on a MUD for years where we had an experience penalty for death. As everyone got older and we had less time to play, the penalty became more and more annoying.

Finally the the admins came up with an elegant solution.

When you die, you do not lose experience, you take a hit to your stats. Your first death you lost something like -2 strength, con, int, etc and this lasts quite a while, (Something like 20-30 minutes, IRL).

Now, eventually this penalty goes away so long as you don't die again.

BUT, if you DO die again before the timer expires, you take ANOTHER -2 penalty to stats and the penalty timer resets. Now you are at -4 to all stats and so on and so forth. You could not avoid the timer by logging out, it persisted through server resets and logging out/in.

As you can see, this gets pretty fricken annoying if you decide to be reckless with your character's life.

No idea if this is possible here....or even if people would want this kind of a system.