Pale master Summon greater undead question

[Laenor]

Despite what you may be led to believe by my disagreeing with you, Laenor, I understand your point. You are trying to convey the message wizards should have that particular tool, because they are already not able to challenge a WM/FB or a FS/BG farming endurance. This is NOT where I disagree.

You're slightly mistaken.
My point is : Even with CGU lasting 1mn per level, Wizards were far away from challenging melee or divine builds on farming speed or endurance.
Hence, lowering it to 2 rounds per level is pointless.

The Wizard, contrarily to what you believe, is the master of duels. Equal consumables, wizard wins. No consumables, Wizard owns. A certain advantage in consumables for the Wizard's opponent does NOT mean he/she will win, and in fact probably the mage will end up winning anyway. Only a BIG advantage in consumables yelds a stalemate/forces the wizard to relocate...because to outright kill a decent wizard, you need a lot of luck AND some VERY specific builds.

Duel is not PvP. And a single fighter willing to spend the 40 charges from his wand of lesser spell mantle will probably be enough to make you run for your life :p

And finally, that change has nothing to do with PvP, because summons are globally absolutely useless in PvP, and there is absolutely no reward (beside RP) to beeing able to PvP effectively, except maybe proving that the epeen of a Wizard is larger than the epeen of a warrior.

Edit.: The funniest thing about this, is the fact that the CGU spell was nerfed on the basic ground that people are able to solo things ... with the PM summon

[Corax]

It does change the wizard's intrinsic power level, even if it does not challenge the position of a FS/BG, for instance. EVEN WITH 1min/lvl, you cannot farm like a Druid or a FS. No worries, you were not meant to.

You actually are not meant to have such a strong melee support on a pure caster powerbuild that has best CL, best DC, best metamagic, best HP (for an arcanist), best spell selection (you're evil) and so on. To have that, either go PM and gain its powers (slightly less powerful than CGU, but long lasting), or use Summon Creature IX (less powerful but more reliable).

A very nice example: CGU 1min/lvl is the best summon in the game. There would be absolutely no drawback, because in case you are spotted, you have the spells necessary for PvP memorized. Now, you don't. You want to use the power of this summon? Pay for it. Otherwise, SC IX is your friend. This indeed is a practical power difference of import: you might have a great build that can do everything...but when you do this, you are at risk, and more vulnerable than usual. This justifies the PM summon and CGU's existence, by the way, one of the things asked by the OP.

Another aspect is the good impact this has on DM events, and other specific occasions in which you need flexibility in your spellbook AND your rest options are between limited and non-existent. Everyone can use a 1h Vampire, but it gets more complicated when it lasts a few mins only: you need foresight, planning and ultimately skill.

We could go on, but I doubt there is any need.

[Corax]

Duel is not PvP. And a single fighter willing to spend the 40 charges from his wand of lesser spell mantle will probably be enough to make you run for your life :p

definitely not, unless you cant PvP. Most certainly not . Go ahead and roll one. I'll bulldoze you with my wizard any day . Maybe you'll live longer, depends on how well you use it, but no, your "fighter" wont make it, sadly.

And finally, that change has nothing to do with PvP, because summons are globally absolutely useless in PvP, and there is absolutely no reward (beside RP) to beeing able to PvP effectively.

We are here to RP. If you play to run around the sandbox killing respawning monsters all by yourself, it's a bit sad.

Edit.: The funniest thing about this, is the fact that the CGU spell was nerfed on the basic ground that people are able to solo things ... with the PM summon

You are incorrect. CGU was improved from 1round/cl to 2round/cl. The PM Summon is fine. Even CGU was, but it got empowered. There you go.

[Laenor]

I don't know about the way you play, but when I'm minding my own business and grinding, I definately don't have PvP spells memorized

We are here to RP. If you play to run around the sandbox killing respawning monsters all by yourself, it's a bit sad.

You are here to RP

I'm here to get a mix of action (IE : Killing stuff and get loot) and rp (IE : interact with others while staying in character)

[Corax]

Then, you admit the value of RP! I did not mean I am here to RP exclusively, myself, but it's surely a VERY important component. Thanks for acknowledging that.

The way I play? I always have PvP and escape spells, and if you grind without them using Vampires, it's a wonder nobody killed you in the process. KoS means: "I am minding my own business, and ther- *gets splatted by group of good aligned people*". Then, they bring you to the fist for your nice execution event, complete with permadeath strike. Yeah, those pesky RP consequences...

[ragnarok1983]

I have read all five pages and all I have to say is...
The Barbarian's summon is way worse. It is invisible, has no AC to speak of, no AB, and worst of all... The Barb 10 summon is not the animated remains of Randall (unlike your swashbuckler).

Also, the barbarian spellbook pales in comparison to the palemaster. One spell, lasts a few rounds, give strength and some other effects if you choose whirlwind. Pfft. No 6AC and immunities to crits and sneaks here.

So in closing, before we fix the palemasters summons, we really need to do something about the dismal barbarian summons.

[Laenor]

Then, you admit the value of RP! I did not mean I am here to RP exclusively, myself, but it's surely a VERY important component. Thanks for acknowledging that.

The way I play? I always have PvP and escape spells, and if you grind without them using Vampires, it's a wonder nobody killed you in the process. KoS means: "I am minding my own business, and ther- *gets splatted by group of good aligned people*". Then, they bring you to the fist for your nice execution event, complete with permadeath strike. Yeah, those pesky RP consequences...

Even if you're open to PvP, a PvP out needs to be given to you.
Which I'll gladly take, since I don't want to PvP, the PvP system from NWN beeing absolutely horrible and totally stupid.

[Corax]

I have read all five pages and all I have to say is...
The Barbarian's summon is way worse. It is invisible, has no AC to speak of, no AB, and worst of all... The Barb 10 summon is not the animated remains of Randall (unlike your swashbuckler).

Also, the barbarian spellbook pales in comparison to the palemaster. One spell, lasts a few rounds, give strength and some other effects if you choose whirlwind. Pfft. No 6AC and immunities to crits and sneaks here.

So in closing, before we fix the palemasters summons, we really need to do something about the dismal barbarian summons.

*waggles his finger* no, no, no! Stay on topic, we will open a new thread on "Summon Randall for Barbarians" if need be!

[Darksider_war]

I have read all five pages and all I have to say is...
The Barbarian's summon is way worse. It is invisible, has no AC to speak of, no AB, and worst of all... The Barb 10 summon is not the animated remains of Randall (unlike your swashbuckler).

Also, the barbarian spellbook pales in comparison to the palemaster. One spell, lasts a few rounds, give strength and some other effects if you choose whirlwind. Pfft. No 6AC and immunities to crits and sneaks here.

So in closing, before we fix the palemasters summons, we really need to do something about the dismal barbarian summons.

*waggles his finger* no, no, no! Stay on topic, we will open a new thread on "Summon Randall for Barbarians" if need be!

gah! Careful! Passi might hit the lock button with his fluffy paw now!

[Corax]

Then, you admit the value of RP! I did not mean I am here to RP exclusively, myself, but it's surely a VERY important component. Thanks for acknowledging that.

The way I play? I always have PvP and escape spells, and if you grind without them using Vampires, it's a wonder nobody killed you in the process. KoS means: "I am minding my own business, and ther- *gets splatted by group of good aligned people*". Then, they bring you to the fist for your nice execution event, complete with permadeath strike. Yeah, those pesky RP consequences...

Even if you're open to PvP, a PvP out needs to be given to you.
Which I'll gladly take, since I don't want to PvP, the PvP system from NWN beeing absolutely horrible and totally stupid.

My friend, you're confused. Let me explain you where you so far went wrong:

SUMMONING AN UNDEAD MEANS ACQUIRING THE "KILL ON SIGHT" STATUS. THAT MEANS AUTOCONSENT TO PVP: each and every passer-by, good/neutral/evil, can walk up to you without a word and proceed to pwn your toon into dust. After that happens, you are at his/her/their mercy, which means permadeath strike if they go to the Fist with your senseless self.

So, unless you want to be dragged into the "horrible, stupid and senseless NWN PvP system", don't summon the dead, play a good half of the Blood Magus skills, or Vampiric Feast (which potentially summons the aforementioned dead). Oh wait...that's basically your toon, isnt it?

[Laenor]

Well, they can kill me all they want, if I don't want to be part of the permastrike system, I won't.
If they ill me, so be it, I ll just move to another place, that's enough of a punishment for me to feel the fact that using undead is not permitted on the surface.

[Corax]

Well, they can kill me all they want, if I don't want to be part of the permastrike system, I won't.
If they ill me, so be it, I ll just move to another place, that's enough of a punishment for me to feel the fact that using undead is not permitted on the surface.

This is already better than your former statement:

Even if you're open to PvP, a PvP out needs to be given to you.
Which I'll gladly take, since I don't want to PvP, the PvP system from NWN beeing absolutely horrible and totally stupid.

However, refusing a permadeath strike when one is due is bad form to say the least. No player worth his/her salt would ever do so.

Said this, we are going off topic these last 4 posts, so:

Duel is not PvP. And a single fighter willing to spend the 40 charges from his wand of lesser spell mantle will probably be enough to make you run for your life :p

definitely not, unless you cant PvP. Most certainly not . Go ahead and roll one. I'll bulldoze you with my wizard any day . Maybe you'll live longer, depends on how well you use it, but no, your "fighter" wont make it, sadly.

And finally, that change has nothing to do with PvP, because summons are globally absolutely useless in PvP, and there is absolutely no reward (beside RP) to beeing able to PvP effectively.

We are here to RP. If you play to run around the sandbox killing respawning monsters all by yourself, it's a bit sad.

Edit.: The funniest thing about this, is the fact that the CGU spell was nerfed on the basic ground that people are able to solo things ... with the PM summon

You are incorrect. CGU was improved from 1round/cl to 2round/cl. The PM Summon is fine. Even CGU was, but it got empowered. There you go.

This is where we are. We concluded the PM summon is balanced. The greater undead is balanced for me, for you it's too short. Reasons have been given.
This thread is basically exhausted, imho.

[dzidek1983]

how can you talk 10 pages over the same thing in circles without any conclusions....

who cares if it lasts so long or so, has that stats or that, you all will still play with what you have....

[Corax]

how can you talk 10 pages over the same thing in circles without any conclusions....

who cares if it lasts so long or so, has that stats or that, you all will still play with what you have....

The OP cared. Laenor cares (in fact, he wants to reroll). The matter has been discussed, conclusions reached. I would play "what I have", because what I play is not dictated by mechanical reasons. Changes have been made, explanations given. Half of this thread should have been in the "Tips&Tricks" section. An important point about KoS has been made known to Laenor, which can now act accordingly.

[Laenor]

I actually disagree with your statement that you don't have to give me a RP out if you find me with a greater undead out.
Before ANY PvP happen, a RP out must be given. It's one of the golden rules, and was stated by Maecius (Or Void) some time ago.

I also won't reroll, I ll just create another character, my Necromancer is already level 30, and it's not like I'd just reroll due to my CGU spell beeing made a pain to use.

I've still got several tools at my disposal.