Comic: The Economic system and why Karond is so rich...

[Shad]

When items been given, there most probably were other standards and circumstances. Server was young, and no one knew for sure, how it would develop. For example, unremovable cursed flag on any item would glue item to a character for good, and maybe then remove curse was not affecting items.

Now this is not PvP server, and any items are not really considerable impact on anything. In PvE one could go alright even with plain stick, and in mass event one have only that impact that ones RP provide, no matter mechanically one can slay all monsters involved in event drinking coffee, or not.

So only ones for whom it should really matter are perfectionalists, who want their character sheets and combat log show kindly arranged digits, and rare pvp players, thats my opinion.

[Ithilan]

I joined a long time ago and have been on and off over the years, but persistently for all that time the majority of the player base has known what the average item power was like and what it was not like.

If at any point someone recieved a weapon of the power that was described previously, they would well have known it was beyond anything imagineable to the rest of the player base. Now I dont fault them for recieving said item, I fault the DM for headlessly giving out items that are out of scale and largely unnecesary.

I would assume the current staff is not responsible for these things and I can imagine it is a complicated matter to come in and having to make rulings on things of the past, but it however is necesary if there are items completely out of porportions such as has been the case in the past. But enough about that I think, lets get back on track and work towards finding a middle ground that makes everyone happy.. if that is to replace previous mentioned items with versions that are more in scale with the server or what not, I dont know, but alternatively giving everyone access to these kind of items seems quite silly as well.

I have largely no idea what the potential for drops of epic quality are like, but I belive that they should dictate the high end of the item scaling used for both store and reward items. If they exceed the qualities of otherwise obtainable equipment, I would consider them misplaced or borderline illegal.

It is not a question of individual power, appearance or jealousy, but a question of common courtesy and fairness that we are all equally important in the community as it does not function without staff, players, developers etc. and that way a balance is maintained, that is otherwise broken through favorism.

[Tinkererer]

Along with my previous suggestion, I would also like to suggest the following:

1. All DM events are subject to submittal and approval to the Head DMs / Admins of the server if an item is going to be granted that is ~not already in the toolset~. This way, the vetting process will weed out items that the staff leaders believe is too powerful. (Note: DMs can still run events "on the fly", this would only specifically apply for events where powerful character-specific items are necessary, such as a Shadow Dancer's quest to obtain his father's Sword of Darkity Darkness)

2. A ~set in stone~ item powerlevel policy should be put in place. DMs and staff should engage the builders and developers to determine what power level they want the server to be. Should a level 1 have access to +1 gear? +2 gear? Should an epic level have access to +4 and +5 gear? This needs to be decided on and shared with the player base for discussion. We need to all be on the exact same page, to really know where we stand.

3. To go along with point #2, once a policy is agreed upon by everyone involved, those who fall outside the policy need to be accomodated in some way that it brings them back into line without being harsh on them. Those that fall WAY outside the policy (E.G. a level 7 character with a +3 enhancement / 1d6 acid / 3 vamp sword or a level 3 character with a +3 full plate) need to be brought into line with the new policy, and compensated accordingly.

We have two issues at odds with each other:
1. Players have awesome items that they don't want to give up.
2. "Power creep" from a previous generation of DMs is muddying the waters of current balance.

A middle ground is to REDUCE power and COMPENSATE players.

Sometimes, doing what's good for the server means doing something that, personally, stings a little.

[chad878262]

1. All DM events are subject to submittal and approval to the Head DMs / Admins of the server if an item is going to be granted that is ~not already in the toolset~. This way, the vetting process will weed out items that the staff leaders believe is too powerful. (Note: DMs can still run events "on the fly", this would only specifically apply for events where powerful character-specific items are necessary, such as a Shadow Dancer's quest to obtain his father's Sword of Darkity Darkness)

I'd say no. DMs already have rules in place and have previously stated they generally give out items rarely. I personally have never received an epic item from any event and haven't heard of this happening since I've been playing, except in the past tense. Additional administrative stuff= time= less events= complaints about not enough events... Careful what you wish for and beware unintended consequence.

2. A ~set in stone~ item powerlevel policy should be put in place. DMs and staff should engage the builders and developers to determine what power level they want the server to be. Should a level 1 have access to +1 gear? +2 gear? Should an epic level have access to +4 and +5 gear? This needs to be decided on and shared with the player base for discussion. We need to all be on the exact same page, to really know where we stand

Not certain, but I think they already have this in place... +4 is max EB, 1-6 max additional damage, etc.

3. To go along with point #2, once a policy is agreed upon by everyone involved, those who fall outside the policy need to be accomodated in some way that it brings them back into line without being harsh on them. Those that fall WAY outside the policy (E.G. a level 7 character with a +3 enhancement / 1d6 acid / 3 vamp sword or a level 3 character with a +3 full plate) need to be brought into line with the new policy, and compensated accordingly.

Not without changing the muling rules. You're allowed to put your epic OMG stuff on a brand new level one character...

I agree with the idea that grandfathered items that have no way off being obtained should be nerfed to what is attainable, but these rules are either unenforceable or take away time that could be spent creating fun.

Now we are a bit of topic I think and maybe should get back to the issue of making gold more important or making Karond more rich or whatever we were talking about originally...

[DM Bloodlust]

Along with my previous suggestion, I would also like to suggest the following:

1.) The staff already does this for items considered epic. Before we give out epic custom items or epic loot table items, we talk to the HDMs and if we're all in agreement the item is given out, and if not, remade to fit what's considered balanced (thought also goes into effort and time spent from the player). I've done this quite a bit since I've given out all the epic items except for one this year

2.) It's been on the table for awhile, but not done quite yet. It's been talked about though, with DM Ghost and myself pushing a bit for it. But there is only so much time we can spare, and it's been down-prioritized for a few months now in favor of other things. That said, there is a general understanding of what the level is, even if it's not concrete.

3.) This is tricky. I'm of the opinion that I don't care about the feelings of the affected players, as fair is fair and everyone should conform (I'm lawful evil) to what's best for the community and the framework that is decided upon. I've thus been active in this regard, as items do matter and matters of items are the basis of percieved bias and such IMO. But there is another side of the coin which many of the staff members have, which is that they don't want to risk upsetting the few that get their items nerfed, that it's akin to a witchhunt which isn't healthy to the server and the belief that gear like this isn't that big. It's also not exactly a pleasant job, and it requires a bit of skill with diplomacy to get the point across to the players whom have these out of the norm items.

If I was the sole decision-maker, I would run amok like a berzerker fixing it all, which would make some people happy and some people angry at the bloodshed in my wake. The same result is achieved by doing nothing, of course, which makes it a divisive topic to say the least

[Tinkererer]

Along with my previous suggestion, I would also like to suggest the following:

3.) This is tricky. I'm of the opinion that I don't care about the feelings of the affected players, as fair is fair and everyone should conform (I'm lawful evil) to what's best for the community and the framework that is decided upon. I've thus been active in this regard, as items do matter and matters of items are the basis of percieved bias and such IMO. But there is another side of the coin which many of the staff members have, which is that they don't want to risk upsetting the few that get their items nerfed, that it's akin to a witchhunt which isn't healthy to the server and the belief that gear like this isn't that big. It's also not exactly a pleasant job, and it requires a bit of skill with diplomacy to get the point across to the players whom have these out of the norm items.

If I was the sole decision-maker, I would run amok like a berzerker fixing it all, which would make some people happy and some people angry at the bloodshed in my wake. The same result is achieved by doing nothing, of course, which makes it a divisive topic to say the least

I think witchhunt is a strong word, and it also implies that the affected player is somehow in the wrong. That's not the case at all, and it shouldn't be framed as such.

We have to remember that we are all, collectively, here to tell a story. That's it. That's what it boils down to. And in that story, a long time ago, one of the story tellers made a mistake. All you'd be doing is fixing that mistake.

It's also important to note that when it comes to PvE, if a +4 longsword with 1d8 neg / 1d6 cold and +3 vamp is too overpowered, a +2 equivalent will still be RELATIVELY overpowered. Just not as mind-blowingly destructive. Will it still kill Dragon XYZ of Wonkyville? Yes. Just not quite as quickly.

[maulofthetitans55]

Karond has more high end items to lose then almost anyone and he brought up this issue to begin with.

Denial at it's finest.

My sentence wasn't for the OP.

In case you haven't noticed, there are a few posts between the OP and mine.

You have no idea what "denial" means, and you're too frustrated at your equipment to even think clearly.

Good joke.

You said "the NWN community's problem." The OP is part of that community and is the only reason you are talking about this to begin with, which completely refutes your blanket statement. Furthermore I've been playing on and off here since beta, lets just say I'm not one of the have-nots :p

Well if that is the case I will just boldly say: The DMs that gave out such items are complete morons and should never have been part of the staff. I dont care if I step on someone's toes in saying so, they are definately to dumb to argue with any ways.

The module's power is not scaled to the point where such exceptionel and otherworldly items even remotely belong here. If people indeed have such items I would pray the staff is keeping a thorough eye on them and considering a future stance on these things.

You think that weapon was bad, there are items far more powerful floating around. Meanwhile the current players are struggling for events that net 3k gold.....lol.

Now this is not PvP server, and any items are not really considerable impact on anything. In PvE one could go alright even with plain stick, and in mass event one have only that impact that ones RP provide, no matter mechanically one can slay all monsters involved in event drinking coffee, or not.

So only ones for whom it should really matter are perfectionalists, who want their character sheets and combat log show kindly arranged digits, and rare pvp players, thats my opinion.

You're living in a dream world. If items only mattered to perfectionists this thread would've died off long ago and the auction forums would be a ghost town. Items effect everything including RP(especially in Bloodlusts events lol). You're also greatly undervaluing +2 vs. +4, that is a +10% hit chance with every attack. That's huge.

If I was the sole decision-maker, I would run amok like a berzerker fixing it all, which would make some people happy and some people angry at the bloodshed in my wake. The same result is achieved by doing nothing, of course, which makes it a divisive topic to say the least

They would all go into hiding as soon as you nerf the first item since they all know each other and exclusively trade amongst themselves. Sure you could search through their 30 mules when they're offline but it would become far too daunting after a day or so.

Back to the topic, is anyone opposed to a high cost enchanting system and can anyone implement it? Is it being denied by any staff or just far too much work? I personally think it would take much longer to approve/add the fifty merchants needed then to just add enchanting and be done with it.

It would literally be a miracle cure for the economy since players could spend millions on personalized gear every time they RCR. Item trade would take a huge hit but it's more then worth it over the system we have now. New players could eventually acquire enough gold to get what they want instead of just leaving because they're not a veteran.

[Maecius]

The DMs have always been in the habit of correcting items that are illegal or clearly imbalanced whenever they find them, or whenever they're reported to them.

What we discourage is a witch hunt mentality: We don't want DMs spending their DM time rooting through player inventories and literally hunting for imbalanced items. This does not meaningfully contribute to the server's storytelling or the gaming experience for the majority of players. And it, in practice, has historically reflected individual DM biases.

Server balance is a largely subjective matter at the best of times, and nobody counts as a subject matter expert. That's why we have a QC Team. So no one person makes unilateral decisions on what is or is not "balanced." Because as this thread alone demonstrates, not everyone is agreed on what constitutes "balanced."

Naturally we want everyone to have access to resources and cool items, but in the end the primary goal is to provide strong story and a fun, rich gaming environment. Item balance, while an issue people feel strongly about, is not something that I personally feel should distract too much from more meaningful server fixes or from new content and new story creation.

That being said, the QC Team is currently reviewing an item enchantment system designed by Rasael. And both Karond and Mrieder have delivered on their shopkeeper ideas -- also under review by QC.

In my experience here at the server, the staff's always open to good ideas delivered constructively, and are especially receptive to ideas that give all players access to something neat or new. We are rarely fast to implement them, admittedly, but that's partly because we try very hard to implement them right, and partly because we've only recently been in a position to do so again.

[Tinkererer]

What if a script was put in place that would automatically "resize" items to be found outside of the bounds of whatever policy is put in place to address this?

Players enter the server, click on Mystra option to go wherever they're going to go, and the script does a finite loop through each item in their inventory. Any enhancements over +4 are brought down to +4. Any damage over 1d6 is brought down to 1d6. Vamp is set at 2 or less. Etcetera. Just an arbitrary example.

It shouldn't be that hard for a decent scripter to cook up something like this and have it be tested / reviewed for bugs extensively prior to implementation.

Essentially, we're setting a bar somewhere and enforcing it server-wide.

[mrieder79]

Thses few old items are not worth the attention they are getting. The real seat of power lies with Gishes. No uber weapon will change that.

You might say that it is a problem if a gish gets one of these uber weapons. I say, not really. They can already solo the balor. With an uber weapon, maybe they will do it a minute or two faster. Honestly, no big deal.

[Karond]

Speaking of the enchanting system, this is more or less it, with the addition of vamp regen +1 at an ES cost of 14 or so and that one can stack any bonus except bonus damage onto the same item (so, you can add +2 dex and +2 str, but not +2 acid with +1 cold damage) as well as some limit on spell slots stacking. ES is enchantment slot cost, and each item is capped at 20 ES points.

I'll forward my suggestion in full, exercising caution in the system in regards to balance. What do you think about something like this?
[th]Enchantment Type[/th][th]Enchantment Slot Cost[/th][th]Limit[/th][tr][td]Attack Bonus[/td][td]+1 ab = 1, +2 ab = 2, +3 ab = 4, +4 ab = 6[/td][td]+4[/td][/tr][tr][td]Attack bonus vs Race/Alignment[/td][td]+1 ab = 1, +2 ab = 2, +3 ab = 3, +4 ab = 4[/td][td]+4[/td][/tr][tr][td]Enchantment[/td][td]+1 EB = 1, +2 EB = 3, +3 EB = 6, +4 EB = 10[/td][td]+4[/td][/tr][tr][td]Enchantment vs Race/Alignment[/td][td]+1 EB = 1, +2 EB = 2, +3 EB = 4, +4 EB = 6[/td][td]+4[/td][/tr][tr][td]Damage Bonus (physical or elemental)[/td][td]1 = 3, 2 = 7, D4 = 12, 3 = 18[/td][td]+3[/td][/tr][tr][td]Regeneration[/td][td]+1 = 10 (cloaks only)[/td][td]+1[/td][/tr][tr][td]Keen[/td][td]8[/td][td]N/A[/td][/tr][tr][td]Ability Bonus[/td][td]1 = 4, 2 = 9, 3 = 15[/td][td]+3[/td][/tr][tr][td]Skill Bonus[/td][td]+1 = 2, +2 = 5, +3 = 8[/td][td]+3[/td][/tr][tr][td]AC[/td][td]+1 = 1, +2 = 6, +3 = 12, +4 = 20[/td][td]+4[/td][/tr][tr][td]AC vs Race/Alignment/Physical Damage[/td][td]+1 = 1, +2 = 3, +3 = 6, +4 = 10[/td][td]+4[/td][/tr][tr][td]Single Spell Slot[/td][td]lvl1 = 3, lvl2 = 5, lvl3 = 7, lvl4 = 9, lvl5 = 11[/td][td]Level 5[/td][/tr][tr][td]Bonus Feat[/td][td]9-15 depending on feat[/td][td]N/A[/td][/tr][tr][td]Cast Spell[/td][td]1/day = 10, 2/day = 15, 3/day = 20[/td][td]3 uses[/td][/tr] Addendum:

The spells per day should most of all be offensive low-level spells. All with low CL. Since we already released +4 ability spells for some careless reason they may be allowed, but absolutely no flame weapons or other buffs IMO. Let casters be casters.

The feats need to be changed according to their use. Stealthy for example only costs 10 ES currently and is the cheapest one. It really needs to be the most expensive one. Skill feats are preferable to saves feats, obviously. The reasoning is that the skill cap is higher at +50 compared to +20, so players won't realistically reach the skill cap. Hence, skill feats is far less likely to let you circumvent the cap like it will with saves. I'm not sure about the spell focus feats (currently allowed), but any other spell or combat feats should not be allowed to be crafted.

---

Changes from the current system:

• Reworked costs on most things
• Removed vamp reg.
• Removed bonus slots 6-9.
• Removed specific alignment EB and AB (such as vs. chaotic evil), as noone will use these since group alignment is available (such as vs. evil)
• Removed specific alignment AC (such as vs. chaotic evil), as noone will use these since group alignment is available (such as vs. evil)
• Removed abilities with costs that exceeded 20 ES, as they wouldn't be craftable anyway.
• Capped skills at +3

Materials suggestion:

I strongly believe we need to change the custom material properties. We also need to assign an ES cost to all the 66 materials. As such, any armors, shields or weapons should come with less ES points than normal materials, due to their inherent bonuses. A suggestion is an ES cost of 6 for darksteel weapons if we want to make materials better. Why 6? Because 6 is the ES cost difference between the two highest damage enchantments. As such, you could gain 0.5 bonus damage by using a darksteel weapon instead of a normal one. Or if we don't want to premiere materials, set the cost at 8 so a normal weapon may lose out on 0,5 dmg, but gain 2 more ES points to spend elsewhere etc.

[thids]

Enchanting system does not fix the issues as I'm fairly certain that the enchanting system will be limited severely when compared to the best epic items from the loot table. Putting those items on existing and new merchants (with appropriate prices) and making a standardized DM reward table which draws items from that loot table not only solves the issues of a power gap and worthless gold, but also gives DM's free hands to hand out rich rewards for their events and plots as they see fit, without having to consult others about it. Cool and powerful items are usually a big part of D&D stories yet that aspect is very limited right now on the server due to a number of "wolves" ready to scream "FAVORITISM" at the first sight of a DM reward in another player's hands.

edit: As I said, severely limited.

[Karond]

Yes, it's an improvement and allows for customization, but it has limits due to balancing decisions. Emphasis has been on not letting GMW/Vestment users get too much of a power gap with crafting, and this framework really does minimize that.

It's not the holy grail, even if it will help. Epic merchants are needed to cover up what's lacking, which is quite a bit for epic weaponry, mithral armors, and armors in general.

[matelener]

Enchanting system does not fix the issues as I'm fairly certain that the enchanting system will be limited severely when compared to the best epic items from the loot table. Putting those items on existing and new merchants (with appropriate prices) and making a standardized DM reward table which draws items from that loot table not only solves the issues of a power gap and worthless gold, but also gives DM's free hands to hand out rich rewards for their events and plots as they see fit, without having to consult others about it. Cool and powerful items are usually a big part of D&D stories yet that aspect is very limited right now on the server due to a number of "wolves" ready to scream "FAVORITISM" at the first sight of a DM reward in another player's hands.

edit: As I said, severely limited.

Enchanting / Crafting fixes one major issue - favouritism within the loot table. You might not craft an equally powerful item as those from the table but at least you'll be able to craft something. As opposed to the current situation where you may have 0% chance to find the equipment for your char.

[Ithilan]

It is not about crying wolf Thids, it is about having equality. Which is the essence of this topic the way I understood it.

Given the posts from Bloodlust and Maecius, I think we are all in good hands however and there is little point in derailing it further discussing items of the past, more so lets focus on the present.