I asked Maecius to re-open this thread so I could clear some things up.
First, a thank you to Dialectic for the response and being candid. But there were some things you wrote that did not make sense to me, or seemed like misinterpretations—something to clear up.
DM Dialectic wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but your tone above implied to me that you had not seen DM recognition in our world before of "making a difference" in regards to evil RP, so I was pointing out a recent example where we had.
I see recognition in minor and major ways via the DM Rumor thread. No, I did not know that actual map changes were made in regard to an Event for the Zhentarim Guild. That is cool, and this is how the Server keeps or appears to be living.
But my comment—or tone, as you say—was related to DM Pun Pun saying some evil PCs are causing more chaos than they or the Player of said PC, knows. That is all well and good, but like I said, it implies that Players of Evil PCs can exist in a vacuum, when it comes to their RP, and that isn't good. Which is why I gave examples where DM(s) could give a direct "message" to the PC—or the Player—that their RP is having an effect.
I hope you and the rest of the DM Team realize how incredibly effective that can be, for Player moral (yep, I said it). And what I am suggesting for Evils is also pertinent to goods, but alas, evils really see/hear less of it. Of that I am certain.
DM Dialiect wrote:We are working on some things to try to expand social opportunity for evil PCs (and chaotic PCs as well hopefully), some of which have already started, but we plan for more to follow.
I rarely use this word, but: awesome! Thank you in advance. I hope that I receive some invitation to be a part of it.
DM Dialectic wrote:Please feel free to fault my reading comprehension, but I read both of these as implicitly saying that the DM team does not (as in never) communicate to evil PCs when they are "making a difference" and that we do not "somehow encourage those evil PCs, through some means?...-a vision... from deity...-special rumor." Thinking that was your implied meaning, it is rather reasonable to then offer specific counter-examples in the good-faith interest of deriving truth in the discussion. This is not excuse making, it is just truth-oriented conversation in an internet forum context, something that I am guessing that we can mutually agree is a mutual value to try to hold in threads such as this. If this was not your intent, then I recommend perhaps making it clearer next time that you are not saying "never" but instead maybe "not enough" when pointing out what you believe to be DMing or otherwise community deficiencies. I say this also noting that you had multiple DMs emphasize with your points and say "we need to do better" while pointing out that some of your perceived implicit generalizations were inaccurate with examples.
I did not say "never." So we can clear that up. If my tone implied I said "never," then I apologize.
Again, I will say: a counter-example for one Guild, or one Player, is not a situation where no deficiency exists. I realize and stated myself that I witnessed many DMs in this thread being forthcoming and promoting healthy change, something by referring to, I am also recognizing in the positive.
I admit, and have pointed out, where I generalize for sake of argument. I would rather give direct and factual examples, however, I simply fear the wrath of the DM Team for stating names, and examples, in negative terms. Trust me, I know what the outcome is, and I really do not enjoy getting "punished." Especially when I'm right!!!
Jokes aside, I can debate failures by all from all sides, for eternity. We are all fallible. But I will continue to point out that DMs have the most power, here, on this Server. Players can make requests, make a case, call in witnesses, whatever...but there is no final recourse, for the Player, here.
The only thing Players can do, if the Player Request system is not working for them, is ask for additional help. Which, I, for one, have done (and recently). And because Player Requests have not on the majority been helpful to support my various RP, I find my last recourse to ask the DMs to consider alternatives to the "strict" Player Request system.
DM Dialectic wrote:in general I would caution any players upset with the state of evil RP to be more patient, nuanced, and conciliatory in their demands as how to fix it as it can be quite demoralizing to DM team members (whom are all volunteers as you all know) to be bashed for not doing things that they are in fact spending lots of time and energy doing or are trying to do -- and demoralizing DM team members actually makes any DMing problem harder to solve, not easier.
I agree. I also believe the Players with Evil PCs have to work
in tandem with the DMs, maybe even more so than those playing Good PCs.
So, after all that, in order to keep my post here relevant to the OP, I will say this one more thing:
D&D has always seemed, more or less, a game and a World—such as Forgotten Realms is—where Evil never really wins. There are many historic instances when Evil does actually change the World, but only for a time. As has been pointed out many times, especially by the DMs and lore keepers, the Sword Coast is very much a neutral to Lawful Neutral environment, and probably the most interest the people of this region have is making coin, having a warm fire, and eating juicy mutton (and some others things best left to ERPers
).
Of course, the FR world is inherently dangerous, wild, and a bit unruly. But that can easily fall under Chaotic.
So in this region of the Sword Coast, both the forces of Good and the forces of Evil should have equal power, in principle. That maybe more Players wish to RP good than Evil on this Server, creates one perception, but that does not then dictate how the Server IS.
In order to reflect how the Server environment "is," there should then be equal types of NPCs of all crosssections of the Alignment scale, so that PCs have micro-environments in which to exercise their "true nature," and thus Players can feel like the opportunities are there, for all.
However, from a personal standpoint, I would hope that a solution can be found where the variety of RP being desired doesn't have to translate into a wider, or disparate, Server, in terms of Areas and interactions. It seems already difficult to connect in many ways outside of certain small circles of RP. Something to pay attention to, and give attention to both IC and OOC distance.
