3 by 20

[Flasmix]

i can follow that line of thinking though

in reality you have to be, what, level 8 to take sd if you meet the prereqs?

i see it more as something grouped together in this instance

i don't see, 7 rogue/1 sd. i see (8roguesd). 8 lvls of sneaky goodness as a total package

the devs made sd in such a way that one could A)take 1 level of it with many levels of rogue, ranger, etc, to add hips to your hide/ms. or B)10 lvls sd to take advantage of more extras from the class

look at sd as a bookend. a bookend as narrow, or wide, as you need it to be

intended by the game designers imo

Okay... No. Shadow dancer is not a class from "the game devs" it's a class straight out of the book. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClass ... dancer.htm

If we want to get technical with what the devs intended... They got lazy, that's what. According to the SRD, hide in plain sight requires a shadow to be within 10 feet of the person. Nwn2 doesn't track any of that and allows players just to hide wherever.

Evasion is the most broken ability in the game bar none. If you take someone with evasion, tie them up, paralyze them, knock them out and blind them and then cast a fire ball... They still get a reflex save, still can evade the spell completely despite not being able to move.

What else did the devs intended? For the game to be single player and servers to have a low population. It's only after years of patches and community content that servers can reach the populations they can now. This means they never got the chance to compare classes and builds in full detail... Geez to even really go into detail about what devs intended when the original game had a cap of level 20 is off.

In the end, these rules exist for a specific reason. There's a clear power level gap between power builds and rp builds. 3x20 closes the gap. 3x30 would widen it slightly while no rules makes it insane. If we allow even favored souls to take a single level of SD for HIPS, even though they may have low Dex, it means every single character has to take a detection skill or be utterly demolished.

[trogers2]

Well said DM Flasmix! but really...probably a good idea not to change something that works, you know what they said "if it isn't broke don't fix it" this rule has served us well for many years, and I think it should continue to do so.

[Thorsson]

let's use an example

two builds and their class level splits...

See the difference?

Irrelevant. No-one denies that you can make a more powerful Ranger with no 3b20 rule; the point is that it still comes nowhere near the power level of an FS. If the objective is to stop the making of builds that are too powerful (which certainly seems to be the main objection raised in this thread) then you have to compare to the most powerful builds on the server.

So if an increase in power is the main objection to removing 3b20, then you also should be rooting for changes that lower the power of the strongest classes.

[Thorsson]

In the end, these rules exist for a specific reason. There's a clear power level gap between power builds and rp builds. 3x20 closes the gap.

You'd better define power builds and rp builds. Then you'd better demonstrate how 3b20 narrows the gap. It certainly isn't self-evident to me.

[Blame The Rogue]

with respect flasmix, this isn't pnp, and cant be treated as such in every situation

there are ways we can mimic pnp here, but other ways we cannot, and should not

we are expected to tell our own stories most often with no dm present

it isn't like pnp where a dm oversees 4-5 players, and every single combat action

i still feel their implementation of sd is intended, as i posted earlier. but it's okay for us to agree to disagree

[NegInfinity]

strawman, fallacy of false equivalence, argument to absurdity

And?

I wrote what I feel regarding the subject.

Hidden: show

"Formal debate" would require prior establishment of common ground, verifications of propositions/assumptions and could take months and still result in erroneous conclusion. Which means it would be a royal waste of time.

[AC81]

let's use an example

two builds and their class level splits...

See the difference?

Irrelevant. No-one denies that you can make a more powerful Ranger with no 3b20 rule; the point is that it still comes nowhere near the power level of an FS. If the objective is to stop the making of builds that are too powerful (which certainly seems to be the main objection raised in this thread) then you have to compare to the most powerful builds on the server.

So if an increase in power is the main objection to removing 3b20, then you also should be rooting for changes that lower the power of the strongest classes.

This isn't reasonable Thorsson and I'd have thought you'd know better being a long time player here. We tried to suggest changes to FvS very recently and everyone got all up in arms over it. You can't give people toys and then take them away, especially not when they've been playing with them for 8 years!
What you and BtR are suggesting are specific rules prohibiting every possible power dip/combo ... given the number of classes we now have available this would take an age to create, approve and implement. AND you'd still have people unhappy because you've now taken away their favourite combo of classes - remember, we recently couldn't even get the community to agree on one, and it was clearly the most OP of them all. How are you seriously going to get dozens and dozens trialled and approved?

We currently have an easy system that works. If RP-heavy players (who shouldn't put a whole lot of stock in mechanics) can't get past the slight difference between a rogue17/fighter3 versus a rogue 19/fighter 1 then that's on them. From an RP perspective their should be no difference - they are both mainly rogue-ish characters who have learnt the basics of fighting (weapon use, armour use, etc).

You guys can talk this up all you want, but the main difference a change like this would create is mechanical. You can't seriously sit there and tell me otherwise (btw, the number of people on here who don't know how broken HiPS is is astonishing). If people on here are saying they're in it 'just for the RP', that's great but how is taking a dip of 3 levels hurting your RP. I'd say it isn't ... it hasn't been an issue for 8 years, why is it one now? It really feels to me like this server is trying to slide into easy mode ...

[AC81]

Let me have another go to summarise:

Best option-
1 level dips allowed either on a case by case basis or by a predetermined rule set governing which classes can be dipped into without putting a strain on the server balance. The downside of this is that the combinations of classes now are huge, the work involved would be massive. If that is agreed upon staffside and implemented, chaos would ensue (see Removal of Item Level Limitation) as the playerbase would feel like they had no input. If it was opened up to the playerbase, no decisions would ever get made (see Nerfing Favoured Soul). Allowing on a case by case basis isn't viable as it would cause a massive spike in workload for DM's and would no doubt result in cries of favouritism.
Result - Good in theory, but no.

2nd best option-
3b30. Already being talked about on QC forums.
Result - Doesn't change much, does allow for a few underpowered builds, also allows for fighters and classes like divine champion to take extra epics feats. Increases power creep, so not ideal.

3rd best option-
3b20. Already happening. Server content is tailored for this build system. Changing would require server rebalance or careful consideration of class combinations which will be time consuming (see above)
Result - most populated NWN2 server for 8 years running.

Worst option-
Free for all. Take whatever you want. IMO, this would be the beginning of the end of the server. May as well give out wings and tails for every snowflake player while we're at it.
Result - terrible.

[Thorsson]

[This isn't reasonable Thorsson and I'd have thought you'd know better being a long time player here. We tried to suggest changes to FvS very recently and everyone got all up in arms over it.

Not everyone.

I didn't say it would be popular; I said it would be logical.

I do understand your point that setting up a bunch of rules to replace 3b20 might be time consuming. I'm not convinced however. Here's a nice simple one for you - Full Caster Base Classes have to stick to 3b20; anything else doesn't. Non-casters are never going to threaten the power levels of casters, so nothing would need to change on server balance.

[Flasmix]

In the end, these rules exist for a specific reason. There's a clear power level gap between power builds and rp builds. 3x20 closes the gap.

You'd better define power builds and rp builds. Then you'd better demonstrate how 3b20 narrows the gap. It certainly isn't self-evident to me.

Power Build = A build that min-maxes stats and class abilities to maximize pvp and PvM. Probably has 8 or 6 charisma. (I am guilty of this too, so I know what I'm talking about). Taking full caster levels and throwing in 1 level of SD. I've gone and described what Myhun would be without 3x20. Changing SD to require 19 Dex caused me to change the build completely to drop asoc, which hammed him up even more. I played on one server years ago where every single Drow had 1 SD. There is zero RP justification in everybody having 1 SD, it's a clear power move done to compete with each other.

We would see tons more 1 fighter dips for free proficiencies and bonus feat. I could probably make an armored caster with hips and autostilled spells with single level dips, throw in 1 level of cleric for some nice domain advantages.

RP Build: Generally well rounded stats. I've heard people say they never let a character have less than 10 in any stat. They deliberately take skills or feats that serve no purpose outside of DM events and offer no mechanical advantage. True Believer any one?

The rp build will do everything more poorly compared to the powerbuild. I think I can safely say that most people reading this understands what I mean and agree.

Blame the Rogue, your main argument consists of the belief that SDs implementation is what the devs wanted. Let me throw this one at you...

The Devs gave us Sacred Fist that allowed for a monk/cleric/sf to wear light armor and still get wisdom to AC. Do you believe that's what they intended?

[chad878262]

Full Caster Base Classes have to stick to 3b20; anything else doesn't.

I actually wouldn't be opposed to discussing this in more detail. Would help Rogue types and Fighter types out. Though I would expand upon it to include more than just full caster base classes. i.e. Monk, Bard, Paladin, Ranger to be included alongside Wiz, Sorc, Cleric, FS, SS, Druid and Warlock. Though I would say the end result would be a lot of melee builds including R2 instead of R3... This is just off the top of my head based on Thorsson's comment so not saying I would be 'for' this type of a change, but I would certainly be willing to put it in the discussion to flesh it out. I would rather spend time making Shadow Dancer WORTH spending 10 levels on as opposed to all 'good' rogue builds consisting of R16/A9/IB5... As has been stated in previous threads, first priority is bug fixes, but alongside that is kits, improvements to some classes and PRC's, and crafting down the road... 3b20 serves well enough for now while we get critical fixes implemented and move toward an 'end state' from the March release.

[Atlas]

-

[Eclypticon]

. . .
Full Caster Base Classes have to stick to 3b20; anything else doesn't. Non-casters are never going to threaten the power levels of casters, so nothing would need to change on server balance.

This strikes me as a more reasonable approach. It may warrant more discussion and consideration.

[Calodan]

For the Paladin it is, as it is a part of his arch type. The kind of training available to a Knight would not be available to a mercenary in a medieval setting like The Forgotten Realms

You are assuming that said mercenary company does not have a former knight commander at the helm............

[Tsidkenu]

Wow this thread fell off the wheels real quick!

*Casts summon Akroma VI*