Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Heimdallr wrote:My whole post as I stated at the beginning of it, was about player behaviour that is pretty common here and I did not quote whole post, only that part to point out that people have nothing to fear, there is no threat to them but if you weren't reading posts made by two people mentioned in my previous post, than just ignore it^^

There is something to fear though. If someone is roleplaying properly, there is fear in death. I'm not going to deny that some players want to RP as godly heroes but those players tend to be just as hated as those who want to kill indiscriminately.

As for what I was responding to regarding your post, it was the direct quote you took from something that I said and put it out of context.

Note: My main PC is evil and I don't go around picking stupid fights for no reason. I prefer actual fun and entertaining RP. PvP to me is something that culminates from a long time plotting. It's not the sole purpose for existing.

Yeah, Flasmix has a serious point here: Death is already rather pointless on BGTSCC—and only through some serious RP and often non-mechanical PvP, does it actually matter—and to insert a PvP area where dying has even less consequence because many are just looking for a place to show off their Build's power... .

Right now, any one can attempt to PvP another Character, hopefully, via in-character reasons. But even if you are just looking to show off your package and don't really want much background to justify the act, it doesn't take much RP to show hostility, and bait another willing Player into it, and get your rocks off...and have little to no lingering consequence to your Character. Add to the fact there already exists many areas within Areas that this is totally possible, it really doesn't make sense to add a specific Area that is a no-holds barred free for all PvP showdown.

Tbh I kinda don't believe there would be something like stupid fights. If for example it would be normal pvp maps or arena type, players would not go for mindless fight there, I can bet 99% would have a rp reason, behind that, have rp fun before teaming with other, during, have dm pushed events there... not just seek and destroy.

As for pvp advantage vs pve...for example one of my chars is Evil, collecting bodies of players beaten in name of [input your god name] dragging them somewhere, do some rituals n stuff. That sounds fun to that char. Many concepts have something that involves pvp as it is giving more fun than hunting a typical mob, that is not a player, cannot rp with you, cannot think at all, and all you can expect from him is screaming "Fuifos!" - Gibberling.

of course this would bring people that just want to find any reason to pwn someone...but who said that others would not oppose?;]

Having better pvp setting would also wake up UD as atm, is there any reason to do any changes to map there? it is mostly empty. Well, not so populated as it used to be back in the day.

Steve wrote:Yeah, Flasmix has a serious point here: Death is already rather pointless on BGTSCC—and only through some serious RP and often non-mechanical PvP, does it actually matter—and to insert a PvP area where dying has even less consequence because many are just looking for a place to show off their Build's power... .

I call this the Saturday Morning Cartoon syndrome. Each Villain and Hero will return and it's like a brand new episode because there's no consequences.

As for the UD's low population, it's not because of lack of PvP, I'm wagering it closer to a lack of variety. (Level 18+? You'll only be fighting Duergar's until level 30 and only 2 Epic Bosses. Compare it to the surface.) In addition, it's a lot harder to make a PC there because of the ECL which most of the UD races possess. If more people made UD characters or adventuring groups, there'd be others joining in and be more activity. The surface has always had a higher population and new players are drawn to where they can find others to RP.

DM Creo wrote: Yet, what really makes this idea great in my mind, is that if you are not a player that would enjoy the RP that an area like this could create or the mindless bloodshed with in it, You simply do not have to go there. There will be no penalty for ignoring this area. It will be nothing but advantageous to those that enjoy it.

This entire topic is like having a war vote at the United Nations. It is sort of umm, DERP. But this statement above IMO should be the beginning and end of the dialog. I added some helpful visual markers for those that are having extreme mental blocks and/or psychological trauma regarding the existence of such a space.

Also, it seems the overall feeling is this is not to be an OOC "Arena", but an actual IC area. If it were an OOC battleground then yes, absurdity. Go play BF4, Overwatch, whatever... and you would never find me there. NWN2 is an incredibly bad game/engine for unbridled PvP combat. But it's other components more than make up for this. Were this to turn into an OOC gank area I'd never go and I'm guessing most would not either as the mechanically best characters will always dominate every time. This is fun for no one except the few in that category.

The idea here is that the actual PvP should be sort of the end game and perhaps a small part of the entire thing. The next argument is the e-peen that will invariably flex there, and it will. Players who are only marginally interested in creating fun and engaging story and RP for other players are like moths to a flame to places like this. I could even name some names! I've met a few in my months here, but I will not.

This is the *magic* of NWN2, not a liability. Two level 30 warlocks who shall remain nameless decide that they will rule "Bartertown" (sorry had to go there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Max_B ... hunderdome )

Some people in the teen level range went there looking for some really engaging RP with shady characters, gray market types, and perhaps overtly evil dudes. What they found were two s00pah d00d warlocks burning down everyone zoning into the area. No worries, this is not an MMO! Here comes the magic...

DMs of course will be around this area particularly in the beginning. Word travels fast that two s00pah d00ds are running roughshod over a nearby area and will likely make a play for the Gate itself soon given their asymmetric power level. They put out a call for noble heroes to combat this threat. Now you have an opposing gank mob that may be able to deal with this issue.

But let me take it a step further on the side of those who cannot wrap their mind around this place. The noble mob appears a dozen strong including 20s and 30s but the warlocks are incredibly skilled at combat and best them all repeatedly. This of course, worries the powers that be even more because they are -certain- they will be making a move on more civilized areas.

So what happens next? Actually Champions are sent (or something similar) of the Flaming Fist and/or various Good Deities. I.E. A DM or three shows up with a well kitted level 30 and melts face repeatedly on the s00pah 'locks. They can also provide them with a friendly warning after their trip to Myrkul that the spirit of the zone is for meaningful RP and story development with PvP as an ever present option. Not "Sup d00d we are umm, the rulahs here!".

They will not take the hint, because those types never do. The next day they are back at it. Now the Champions return and steam roll them quite quickly and slap a permadeath strike on them. But our awesome e-peeners of course, don't care about that. The next night they once again burn down anyone in the zone for virtually no reason. Lord Ao appears with his mightiest of weapons. Standing among them he produces BANHAMMER, and the mortals tremble before him as they are erased from existence completely.

That is it. See how easy that was? Or worst case, and again I -highly- doubt this absurd scenario above will ever come to pass but I'm looking from the perspective of the various Nervous Nellies(tm) here who are frightened by the thought of any of this. So new d00ds appear and the thing repeats itself week after week. A week later, Lord Ao reappears seeing his folly and removes the entire area from existence. Erased from the memories of all living beings as if it never existed. (Area removed) *poof*

And they lived happily ever after!

-Darkwind
(and when the next DM vote comes up, vote for Pedro! (me) )



P.S. I was part of the "you should have seen the bridge north of Beregost today" debacle today (*hat tip Face*) and it was -fantastic- a nice taste of what this area could provide on a large scale. I actually saw one of my friends there who went to the "dark side" and had some awesome RP attempting to bring him back to the light. He RP'd being highly conflicted about killing my character as he should be even though his "handler" was egging him on to slaughter me. I went there twice, I PvP'd twice and I lost and died twice. I even handed over my gold! My char would do no less to save a friend even if they don't want to be saved. Guess what? It was the most fun I had in weeks on BGTSCC. YMMV depending on how much of a sensitive flower you are, but I was offered an out to PvP which I gladly didn't accept twice.

Darkwind wrote:
P.S. I was part of the "you should have seen the bridge north of Beregost today" debacle today (*hat tip Face*) and it was -fantastic- a nice taste of what this area could provide on a large scale. I actually saw one of my friends there who went to the "dark side" and had some awesome RP attempting to bring him back to the light. He RP'd being highly conflicted about killing my character as he should be even though his "handler" was egging him on to slaughter me. I went there twice, I PvP'd twice and I lost twice. I even handed over my gold! Guess what? It was the most fun I had in weeks on BGTSCC. YMMV depending on how much of a sensitive flower you are, but I was offered an out to PvP which I gladly didn't accept twice.

funny how the "this is never gonna happen" can suddenly be it's happening right now.

BG is an RP server. Every character has free will. As a result, you've always been able to PVP pretty much anywhere on the server (except for the Nexus) provided you have an in character reason for it and comply with the PVP rules. Sure, you have to accept that there may be in character consequences for your actions (for example, if you attack someone in front of a guard you will probably be arrested or find yourself an outlaw), but that's par for the course on an RP server.

We're not going to make a map where there are neither rules nor consequences, though. There may still be a few arena or PVP servers out there for that sort of play, and I would encourage you to check them out if you're interested in just bashing people in a fight. But we probably aren't going to be foregoing RP entirely on BG any time soon. We're an RP server, after all. We may not be a hardcore RP server, but we do ask that all players try to play the game in character.

If people want to PVP each other on BGTSCC, there's literally nothing stopping them right now. The only thing you can't do is grief people or attack people for no reason. If two people really want to PVP each other, literally the only barrier is to make sure you're not doing it in front of NPCs (without a DM present to control their reactions).

The DMs usually only get involved in rules enforcement if one side of the fight feels that they have been victimized by the other. So if everyone's having fun, there's generally not going to be a problem.

Maecius wrote:BG is an RP server. Every character has free will. As a result, you've always been able to PVP pretty much anywhere on the server (except for the Nexus) provided you have an in character reason for it and comply with the PVP rules. Sure, you have to accept that there may be in character consequences for your actions (for example, if you attack someone in front of a guard you will probably be arrested or find yourself an outlaw), but that's par for the course on an RP server.

We're not going to make a map where there are neither rules nor consequences, though. There may still be a few arena or PVP servers out there for that sort of play, and I would encourage you to check them out if you're interested in just bashing people in a fight. But we probably aren't going to be foregoing RP entirely on BG any time soon. We're an RP server, after all. We may not be a hardcore RP server, but we do ask that all players try to play the game in character.

If people want to PVP each other on BGTSCC, there's literally nothing stopping them right now. The only thing you can't do is grief people or attack people for no reason. If two people really want to PVP each other, literally the only barrier is to make sure you're not doing it in front of NPCs (without a DM present to control their reactions).

The DMs usually only get involved in rules enforcement if one side of the fight feels that they have been victimized by the other. So if everyone's having fun, there's generally not going to be a problem.

Why not my caravan map idea where PC's can freely engage in PvP in the form of a bandit attack?

Akroma666 wrote:

Maecius wrote:BG is an RP server. Every character has free will. As a result, you've always been able to PVP pretty much anywhere on the server (except for the Nexus) provided you have an in character reason for it and comply with the PVP rules. Sure, you have to accept that there may be in character consequences for your actions (for example, if you attack someone in front of a guard you will probably be arrested or find yourself an outlaw), but that's par for the course on an RP server.

We're not going to make a map where there are neither rules nor consequences, though. There may still be a few arena or PVP servers out there for that sort of play, and I would encourage you to check them out if you're interested in just bashing people in a fight. But we probably aren't going to be foregoing RP entirely on BG any time soon. We're an RP server, after all. We may not be a hardcore RP server, but we do ask that all players try to play the game in character.

If people want to PVP each other on BGTSCC, there's literally nothing stopping them right now. The only thing you can't do is grief people or attack people for no reason. If two people really want to PVP each other, literally the only barrier is to make sure you're not doing it in front of NPCs (without a DM present to control their reactions).

The DMs usually only get involved in rules enforcement if one side of the fight feels that they have been victimized by the other. So if everyone's having fun, there's generally not going to be a problem.

Why not my caravan map idea where PC's can freely engage in PvP in the form of a bandit attack?

What is stopping that from being done anywhere now, as long as it is RP'd and the rules are followed?

Maecius wrote:BG is an RP server. Every character has free will. As a result, you've always been able to PVP pretty much anywhere on the server (except for the Nexus) provided you have an in character reason for it and comply with the PVP rules.

*massive snip for brevity*

I think this here was the main issue. You -can- do it, but it isn't really done because the community is not in favor of this. The idea I think was a rather lawless area or perhaps town where this would be somewhat more acceptable on the regular. Think Mos Eisley in the Star Wars universe. Roaringshore is the only thing close to that now but it is small and there is not much reason to be there. Roaringshore writ large and with other adjacent areas that are worth loitering in or maybe I'm dreaming which it now seems like I am.

Oh well, back to grinding trolls!

Maybe the solution is to remove the rp out. You can run still, but th4ey don't have to just let you leave. Either you survive with the skills your character actually has, or you don't.

I'm definitely not for an 'open' pvp area. Like, enter at your own risk gankfest with no real purpose behind it. I definitely am for some sort of pvp-based, in-character "quests" that pit one group of similar level characters against another group of similar level characters. To do this, we really don't need any special areas, although they would help people steer clear of getting caught in the crossfire when said groups come together and all hell breaks loose.

An arena based combat system, or even a giant enclosed area of some sort that is self-contained, can be very much in character. If there is gold and/or fame to be had, and the general concept is NOT permadeath (i.e. there are healers standing by to save you from the fugue or we all just agree to RP kindly to one another (no turning you to stone, breaking up the statue, and tossing it in the sea BS)), I think people could have a lot of fun. It could be one vs. one, two vs. two, etc., even capture the flag type stuff (although that feels like we're slipping into OOC territory a bit) so long as the teams are arranged and agreed upon prior to the start of the event. There could be different rulesets you select (no-buffs, standing face to face. no buffs, 20 feet apart. no buffs 60 feet apart, fully buffed, etc.) that is set up via scripting.

A mad wizard could set up a maze for his amusement. Gold is in the center. Multiple people or groups of people are after it. First to get it and hold it for a pre-set amount of time is the winner. A DM who wanted to could create an entire backstory on why said wizard might do this. Hell, Elminster flits around planting magical items in ruins to keep the adventuring soul of Faerun alive.

Trying to arrange this stuff on your own is hard. Or at least it used to be. That's why I'm so psyched to see a DM expressing interest in this. A scripted solution that only involves people who want to participate seems like the best option to me. Forking out a million of your own gold just to host a tournament with a solid turnout is fun, but isn't really a viable long-term solution for those interested in battling sentient opponents rather than the same old mobs.

I agree that bandit RP can already happen, and has happened on the server in the past.

@Darkwind: Roaringshore and Soubar are the only towns where you can PVP readily (in line with the PVP rules) without involving the DMs, correct: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=42477

(I'm not 100% sure that's true for Roaringshore, mind you; but per Dialectic's note in the link above you can PVP in Soubar.)

The northern part of the server is also pretty much no-man's land in terms of the law. The strongest lawful presence in the area is probably Darkhold of all places (and Elturel, which isn't actually represented in game -- at least not as a location you can visit).

@Egg Shen: There's nothing stopping the DMs from running events like this. But historically the DMs have been reluctant to get involved in these sorts of PVP events, and guild vs. guild events, because it always blows up in their faces. One side inevitably ends up blaming the DMs of favoritism or incompetence, and there's usually weeks or months of drama to follow. I'm not sure I've ever seen it end well, where the DMs were praised and both the winning and the losing players were happy.

The closest one I can think of off the top of my head was maybe when the Doron Amar and Radiant Heart teamed up to attack the old temple of Bane in the Wood of Sharp Teeth -- but I wouldn't say the Banites were happy about that. They were just really good sports about it. There's a difference in enjoying a versus-style event and "playing along" because you're a good sport. And there was some lingering dissatisfaction over how it was all handled, even then.

So I can't say I really blame the DMs for avoiding those kinds of events as a rule. There's been some support for it here in this thread, but in practice? It's usually an easy way to sink your reputation as a DM and to turn players sour.

@Maecius the no limits you have spoke before, are pretty cool looking. For some reason people don't even see them. I mean, perming people is nearly impossible, so people do not fear, they even do not buff(well mostly) and just run around knowing that mobs cannot kill them, because they are not near any spawn, and they do not suspect that someone would attack them in the place they actually are.

I would like to know, how you can push some territory conquering, removing opposition or conquering a guild if perming is nearly not possible. Facing people that do not fear any consequences...its like killing mobs, literally the same for me at least

Ok then props to DM Hera for showing up at the bridge yesterday and just having a friendly talk with us to make sure every thing was in order and for giving us a small reward after it was all said and done.

And im glad you had fun with all of it Darkwind