Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

cosmic ray wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:28 pm

Planehopper wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:19 pm

cosmic ray wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:06 pm

That is a brilliant idea. The Underdark is nearly empty most of the time, so expanding it with even more areas, thus helping dilute the very few players who remain even more, will be a huge boon to make it feel more alive. Make sure that at least half a dozen of those areas are new hubs which you can spawn in directly from the nexus, so that we can ensure no UD character will ever run into any other PC ever again. Damn, why don't I ever have such brilliant ideas? Life ain't fair.

It truly isn't. I'm sorry.

So you want to play a hostile +2 ECL race from the UD on the surface, but not in the UD? Half the replies say how the UD needs expansion (and the projects in the works are in tandem with UD players - guess you know more than them), and now when it's offered its a bad idea?

I'll let Tanlaus, Banovitsky, and EC know that we should halt work.

Or not.

BGtSCC suffers from a serious problem in that it has way too many hubs. Not just the underdark, but the surface as well. The module also has too many pointless areas, especially in the underdark with all those nondescript tunnel areas that all look alike and have no real purpose except to make you walk more between point A and point B, as well as making it harder for you to run into others. This was true eight years ago already, and it's only got worse with time.

We learn about solids, liquids and gasses as children in school and the different likelihoods of molecules bumping into each other in each of those states. It's the same principle.

I've actually mentioned this before myself, that there are almost too many areas/RP hubs and none of them funnel players toward a central area for RP and conflict, or to even run across each other that often. It was an unpopular opinion though Which I can understand somewhat, as people do spend a lot of time just exploring maps and fighting things for loot. More areas = more PVE content.

That being said, this issue is not really relevant to this thread. Valid point or not.

So lets try to keep the discussion on topic with why we should or should not allow the UD to have a bit more leeway for neutral RP up top in the north or not. People seem too fixated on the Boarskyr hub idea, which is not really the point of this thread, it's not even part of the final proposal for this, just something that had been discussed with groups before posting this poll. Nothing yet is set in stone, and the creation of new hubs or reorganizing existing ones is clearly not out of the question (As Rhifox has stated in this thread a few times.) so this part of the topic isn't 100% relevent either quite yet. A change like this would clearly take some tweaking and work were it to be implemented.

I think folks are also focusing too much on the PVP aspect. Heavy PVP that upsets players is a report to the DM's, regardless of what race is doing it. I don't think that this is really a reason to not allow this to go forward. People are going to PVP anyway, and people who are going to PVP bait will (and do.) do this regardless of what rules we have in place. But those people also tend to not last more than a month or 2 on the server as reports pile up and eventually leads to a ban pretty much every time. Once again, I think this is really a non-issue with this particular topic and is most certainly not the focus of what this is supposed to be.

Regarding the OP, I have voted "yes" to reducing KoS.

My reasoning is that removal of KoS does not inhibit legitimate and server-standard PVP engagement. Removal of KoS also does not make one immune to consequences of being antagonistic, regardless of 'surface laws' (which usually permit self defense anyway).
If someone wishes to be antagonistic, regardless of origin, race, or class, they are explicitly consenting to PVP, per server rules:

A character who continuously provokes, slanders, bullies, or offends another character is considered to have consented to PvP with that other character. The offended character is not required to give an RP out before engaging in PvP with the aggressor, as long as the attack occurs during the offending.

Source: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3170

If you pop up and wave a sword or a bow at someone and ask them to hand over money or threaten to enslave them - PVP has been consented, regardless of character.
If you see a dark character in the distance and know they are drow based on name or target portrait - it could literally be anyone, or they could have a concealing outfit, or any other legitimate reason to supersede KoS, and the rules do require that the target be positively identified as an Underdarker anyway (which usually requires RP).

I am also of the opinion that blanket surface KoS isn't nescesarily reflective of IC laws. In BG and Duchal lands - yes, RP and precident has made it so. However, there is a lot of backwoods and frontier regions that don't have IC "Kill any drow" laws, and in those regions I feel that KoS should not be assumed. As noted above, falling back to standard PVP rules in those areas seems appropriate.

zhazz wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:34 pm Personal opinion, based on prior playtime eight years ago, and listening to/reading feedback from Underdark players in the past year.


My main issue with the Underdark here on BG is that it has very little ties to the most widely known and thus sought-after culture.

I'm not advocating for gore-fests, and torture orgies. That's not within the PG rating of the server. Though if consenting adults want to explore that type of RP, then I'm not one to tell them no either. As long as they do it off the server.

Anyway . .

What the majority of Forgotten Realms fans expect of an Underdark setting is Drow House warfare and subterfuge. Wars between the cities of drow, duergar, and svirfneblin. Wars between each of those cities, beholder communities, and illithid enclaves. All the while there's an undercurrent of secret trade with those enemy factions, because strange magical artefacts equal power and standing.

From what I remember there's only Sshamath on the server. There's no svirfneblin city (only a village without defensive walls). No duergar clan stronghold. There's only a single city, where everyone is expected to get along, because to do otherwise hurt trade. And don't anyone dare start to get zealous about religion, because then the wizard masters of Sshamath will crack down hard on those individuals.

The Surface is much easier to manage in that regard. Because the vast majority of content is player characters against monster characters, with a splash of faction warfare every now and then. Not so in the Underdark of BG, where there effectively are no factions. With (most) everyone living in the same city, there's only really room for spying and infiltration stuff — which require DM oversight!! Everything else is still player characters against monster characters; but in the Underdark every player character IS a monster character due to their race of choice.


If the Underdark is to be an active place, then it needs to play to its lore-wise strengths. Which require DM oversight. Maybe if there was an Underdark Kraak Helzak, and an Underdark Gullykin, then things could start to move in the right direction. But as of right now, most anything that is fitting for the Underdark require DM oversight. Because in the Underdark you spy on friends and enemies alike, and are always ready to stab someone in the back, because they WILL do that to you.

Or at least the Drow will. Duergar and Svirfneblin not so much, yet they're typically not the most sought-after Underdark race to play. In terms of Underdark lore, the Drow are the superstars. While they may be evil, they're very much considered the "team to root for", due to taking centre stage in most of the lore. Duergar and Svirfneblin are the enemies of drow, and each other. They're the orcs and goblins most commonly found in Surface lore. They're the enemy of the protagonist race(s), whom they band together against, when not too busy fighting each other too.


TL;DR:
The vast majority of Underdark lore is focused on the drow race, their wars with other Underdark races, and each other. The latter very much being a spy-vs-spy affair, complete with betrayals, assassinations, back-room deals, and intimidation through reputation. The BG setting doesn't allow for most of this to happen, due to a lack of proper non-drow citadels, proper Lolthian warfare, proper religious zealotry, and the absolute requirement for DM oversight for all the spying and assassination plots against other drow (players).

+1 - we need all 3-4 houses of Drows against each other + dwarf at war with drow + svirf at war in the UD first based on the real lore.
not huggy bunny drow seeking attention on the surface.

Snarfy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:20 pm

mrm3ntalist wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:46 pm
-The second concern is what worries me the most. If you think the UD is empty now, Imagine how it would be once this proposal takes place. I believe that most - if not all - ud population will be up top and there will be a point that a decision will need to be made whether the UD areas should even be on the server.

This is a pretty legitimate concern.

When I'm on my UD characters, I don't bring them topside. Admittedly, I'm not really motivated to RP much these days, but, if I ever get back into it, I can safely say that the UD would be a lot less appealing to log into if UD activity predominantly migrates top side.

Additionally, any type of "safe zone" that potentially springs up out of this idea will just be another place for all of my surface characters, except maybe one, to avoid(much like how I avoid Soubar). Simply put, it's not my bag, and feels like a watering down of the setting, but if players want to foster and engage in more UD-surface hangouts, they are welcome to it.

+1 this.

About 6 months ago, I created a Tanarukk and started on the surface. I was about level 11 after an RCR. I understand the rules and do not fear RP. . My goal was to see how I would be treated on the surface. After 30 minutes I encountered a Halfling that quickly ran away after noticing my race. Within 3 minutes I encountered another Halfling that, without attempting to RP, said "watch out I'm the second best dual stabber on the server." I just role-played a grunt and logged out. It was very suspicious that a power build showed up to challenge me. Will this scenario be the norm? Will the player base quickly log out to get on their epic power builds just to pvp?

I was inactive for over a year before that encounter and have been inactive since that encounter. It was obvious to me that I need to build for power if I wanted to play on the surface. I've always built for a theme and not power. My most fun characters were under powered in some way. I've often intentionally built in flaws. I am not interested in mindless pvp. I love playing Orcs.

I changed my vote from yes to no based off some great points made, and the historical facts presented.

I wonder if another poll could be made to see how many people think the UD should be turned into adventuring dungeons instead of its own RP world.

Anchor wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:22 pm I changed my vote from yes to no based off some great points made, and the historical facts presented.

I wonder if another poll could be made to see how many people think the UD should be turned into adventuring dungeons instead of its own RP world.

I for one really like authentic Underdark RP. The stuff rooted in lore from official novels. I would love to see a shift towards content that both respect and follow established lore. While Sshamath does exist in official lore, and its representation on BG is quite fair, it does have a few drawbacks. Namely no great houses to pit against each other, since the ruling wizard conclave would step in to stop it as to prevent disruption of trade. And no room for Bregan D'aerthe to truly exist and thrive, since they have no great houses to rent their mercenaries out to, and their mercantile efforts are dwarfed by what Sshamath already has established — including trade with the surface.

As I outlined previously, there are no good options for playing a svirfneblin or a duergar. They simply have no home of their own. They would either be citizens of Sshamath, and thus under drow rule — albeit with much more freedom than in a matriarchal drow city; or they would be outcasts with no real place to call home, and thus nothing to fight for, except simply surviving in the wilds of the Underdark. Which, while good on a personal level, it quickly becomes stale, when everyone is on the same path; and it offers little in terms of big DM plots.

Thus there's little to draw RP to the Underdark in the first place. Aside from campfire RP, shenanigans in Soubar, and the occasional personal feud between two characters. Nothing quite on the scale of inter-house warfare, city warfare, or raiding enemy strongholds (grinding is not raiding; raiding require DM oversight).

Yet for all these faults — yes, I consider them faults — of the UD on the BG server, I still believe in the principle of the Underdark. Namely that it is a truly dangerous place. So much so that no sane person would ever venture there, and the few that might be insane enough to try anyway, will be stopped well in advance by their friends and family. It simply is not a place where one goes on a whim. Even the most fabled heroes of all time from the many novels have purposefully avoided the place. There is nothing for them there but pain, torture, and, if they're lucky, a swift death. Only in the most dire of circumstances do planned trips to the Underdark happen. And most often they are put on hold before they even begin. Because anyone entering the Underdark will be a changed person when they return. Even if they do not encounter anything at all, there is still the constant threat and anxiety of knowing that any shadow can contain monsters, or worse: drow. To enter the Underdark is to invite PTSD of the most severe kind.


TL;DR:
The Underdark is not an adventuring place for curious surfacers. Lore-wise there is no reason for anyone to go there except the most desperate, insane, or downright self-destructive people. PCs visiting the place will, in my experience, not respect the dangers of the place. Many PCs already take a Sunday shopping trip there, even when lore-wise they should be staying far far away. Turning it into adventuring dungeons only cheapen the dangers and horrors of the Underdark. Better to remove the Underdark entirely then, and keep it solely as once-in-a-blue-moon DM areas.

Though preferably the Underdark can be "set right". Perhaps a DM plot to unseat the wizard conclave of Sshamath, and replace it with traditional ruling houses, either matriarchal, patriarchal, or a mix of both. At least that would open up the option of house warfare, spying, and assassination plots. Throw in a duergar stronghold, and a svirfneblin citadel after that, and now the newly established great houses of Sshamath have someone to fight against, make deals with, or persuade other great houses to attack unfavourably.



Taking the advise of Maecius, I'll refrain from further participation in the thread until a suitable number of replies have produced several more pages. I have said my piece, and given my advice and recommendations. If anyone disagree, then they're welcome to PM me, and we can talk about Underdark lore, and the mythos the Underdark play in the lives of surfacers — kings and commoners alike.

I was around when this persistent world began. I was one of several Underdarkians that moved here from The Forgotten Realm of Eben Atar, or however it was spelled. I always played a rothe or meat shield. The dedicated Drow players wanted something different than the standard female Drow Cleric dominated role-play. The developers abliged and implemented a male Drow Wizard dominated role-play environment. I never found a great way play my favorites due to the rules of the merchant city, but that's a personal problem. Maybe it's time for a proper Llothite society? Sorry to derail.

My 2 cents as someone who spends most of his IC time up around Soubar:

Soubar and the surrounding areas are probably just as, if not more so hostile to paladins and those types of individuals. There is really no IC reason a paladin should be any less KoS up around places they actively tend to work against than a drow who would likely do business within Soubar. Expanding the 'neutral' zone around Soubar that the Upper Dark currently is makes perfect sense, after all, we already have quite a few residents that give drow a run for their money in terms of 'evil'.

zhazz wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:52 pm

Anchor wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:22 pm I changed my vote from yes to no based off some great points made, and the historical facts presented.

I wonder if another poll could be made to see how many people think the UD should be turned into adventuring dungeons instead of its own RP world.

I for one really like authentic Underdark RP. The stuff rooted in lore from official novels. I would love to see a shift towards content that both respect and follow established lore. While Sshamath does exist in official lore, and its representation on BG is quite fair, it does have a few drawbacks. Namely no great houses to pit against each other, since the ruling wizard conclave would step in to stop it as to prevent disruption of trade. And no room for Bregan D'aerthe to truly exist and thrive, since they have no great houses to rent their mercenaries out to, and their mercantile efforts are dwarfed by what Sshamath already has established — including trade with the surface.

As I outlined previously, there are no good options for playing a svirfneblin or a duergar. They simply have no home of their own. They would either be citizens of Sshamath, and thus under drow rule — albeit with much more freedom than in a matriarchal drow city; or they would be outcasts with no real place to call home, and thus nothing to fight for, except simply surviving in the wilds of the Underdark. Which, while good on a personal level, it quickly becomes stale, when everyone is on the same path; and it offers little in terms of big DM plots.

Thus there's little to draw RP to the Underdark in the first place. Aside from campfire RP, shenanigans in Soubar, and the occasional personal feud between two characters. Nothing quite on the scale of inter-house warfare, city warfare, or raiding enemy strongholds (grinding is not raiding; raiding require DM oversight).

Yet for all these faults — yes, I consider them faults — of the UD on the BG server, I still believe in the principle of the Underdark. Namely that it is a truly dangerous place. So much so that no sane person would ever venture there, and the few that might be insane enough to try anyway, will be stopped well in advance by their friends and family. It simply is not a place where one goes on a whim. Even the most fabled heroes of all time from the many novels have purposefully avoided the place. There is nothing for them there but pain, torture, and, if they're lucky, a swift death. Only in the most dire of circumstances do planned trips to the Underdark happen. And most often they are put on hold before they even begin. Because anyone entering the Underdark will be a changed person when they return. Even if they do not encounter anything at all, there is still the constant threat and anxiety of knowing that any shadow can contain monsters, or worse: drow. To enter the Underdark is to invite PTSD of the most severe kind.


TL;DR:
The Underdark is not an adventuring place for curious surfacers. Lore-wise there is no reason for anyone to go there except the most desperate, insane, or downright self-destructive people. PCs visiting the place will, in my experience, not respect the dangers of the place. Many PCs already take a Sunday shopping trip there, even when lore-wise they should be staying far far away. Turning it into adventuring dungeons only cheapen the dangers and horrors of the Underdark. Better to remove the Underdark entirely then, and keep it solely as once-in-a-blue-moon DM areas.

Though preferably the Underdark can be "set right". Perhaps a DM plot to unseat the wizard conclave of Sshamath, and replace it with traditional ruling houses, either matriarchal, patriarchal, or a mix of both. At least that would open up the option of house warfare, spying, and assassination plots. Throw in a duergar stronghold, and a svirfneblin citadel after that, and now the newly established great houses of Sshamath have someone to fight against, make deals with, or persuade other great houses to attack unfavourably.



Taking the advise of Maecius, I'll refrain from further participation in the thread until a suitable number of replies have produced several more pages. I have said my piece, and given my advice and recommendations. If anyone disagree, then they're welcome to PM me, and we can talk about Underdark lore, and the mythos the Underdark play in the lives of surfacers — kings and commoners alike.

I get what the UD is supposed to be. Played down there quite a bit myself. However, most would say just about every encounter “cheapens” the experience of any epicness that FR could afford. At some point, sacrifices have to be made for player enjoyment, else itll continue to be a wasteland.

Perhaps, Sshamath can be gutted down to being just a merchant city (a one area location, and its resources and areas could be given to a traditional drow city, whichever is applicable in this region. Drow House RP has always been pretty popular, not just on this server but in others and lore itself. The drow schools of magic were hard to get active. I mean, surface can’t get one wizard guild together since the Weavemasters so that kind of RP is dead on arrival. Doesnt help duerger and svirfs though

I voted yes. I think restrictions could be lessened quite a bit more though.

When I was bright-eyed and new to the server, I wanted to make a drow, and then when I actually walked around on a drow, I very quickly did not want to have a drow anymore. The Underdark is incredibly user unfriendly:

1) The light is too dark and cold. Please, for the love of all that is good in this world, someone install bioluminescent mushroom lightbulbs that give off warm lights. The Underdark is, well, really dark, and the cold, often purple lighting hurts the eyes for some people (me, I am some people). It's not immersive, I'm not an ACTUAL drow who can clearly see and navigate in a lifetime of roaming the underworld, I'm a half-blind player. It's very hard to see.

2) Black maps. Replace them with actual maps. Look, I have the directional sense of a dead possum on the best of days, with a functioning map. My time playing Minecraft is usually me stepping 5 feet from base and then crying for a friend to come pick me up because I'm lost. To be in a region of the same tilesets that also DO NOT have any maps? One of my friends escorted me along the quest route for the UD and showed me around and I politely nodded along like I was absorbing any of these paths when I knew I wasn't, he knew I wasn't, it was just a series of lies because I would've constantly needed my hand held like a toddler walking through a mall so I don't start meandering in endless lost loops through J.C. Penny'matth.

And that's just the Underdark. But that's fine. I don't HAVE to spend my WHOLE life in the Underdark... right? ...well, no, because the rules and mechanics alike very heavily discourage Surface travel. You "need a reason", which is vague and intimidating, and, I mean, I assume most people need a purpose to be in most places anyway. Why are you clapping ogre cheeks in an ogre lair? Why are you buying scrolls from a literal Mindflayer? Why are drow held to a different standard and completely cut off from any kind of progression while on the surface? Why do their tender drow hands suddenly break when reaching for a surface chest?

3) Tear down the wall. Eliminate the Underdark & Surface barrier mechanics. They're OOC, anyway, there's no lore to maintain that involves surfacers being deathly allergic to gaining new experiences when killing a sentient mushroom in a deep cave.

"Lore, Rarity, & Immersion"? I think that ship has long since sailed. You can't walk two feet without running into a noble or noble associate, a tiefling, aasimar, dragon-bloods, fey-bloods, level 30 demi-gods, people from incredibly far-off regions like Kara-Tur, and any other "rare" character concept. Constantly rubbing elbows with archmages at a campfire, or listening to people talk about how they've killed 20 white dragons and bench pressed 100 balors that week isn't more immersive than running into a drow once in a blue moon. Literally. I think I've seen one drow in the wild my whole time on the server as a surfacer. A lot of server lore is homebrewed, a lot of player RP initiatives are homebrewed, and we're all already "Drizzt & Elminster" clones by power level and weekly monster grinds alone, and some entire towns on this server don't even exist in FR lore. There are people constantly adventuring in HIGH HEELS. One person's immersion-break or lore discrepancy or rare and untouchable concept is another person's cup of tea. Why is the line drawn at anything drow-related, except initiatives to lock drow underground via OOC mechanics and rules? It's not like drow going to the surface, or neutral drow, or drow who don't conform to their specific culture don't exist in lore. Jarlaxle is right there.

Additionally, if maintaining a lore-friendly environment is an issue, why not suggest DM events that involve aggressive drow incursions to the surface? That would give surfacers an enemy to deal with, it would give evil drow an event that centers on their own leadership, infiltration, etc. with DM support, and it would give neutral drow one hell of a sticky situation to navigate, being implicated by virtue of who they are. Could even have several drow houses trying to cause havoc on the surface while undermining each other, give players multiple avenues to pit them against each other, pick one to support, whatever they choose. That would maintain the environment, put neutral drow in a still-rare light, and promote stories on all sides. After all, players represent the rare minority of a population, NPCs the majority. Stories like that are a struggle to explore when so many hard, OOC, mechanics-driven walls are maintained.

"PVP-Mongering"? That's just a PVP problem. IMO, ganking doesn't promote any RP, and tends to be used as a retaliatory OOC tool to try and "win" than a way to foster conflict RP. This game is a SP and co-op RPG from over a decade ago, it was NEVER meant for PVP, or balancing PVP. PVP on consensual and even footing is just a matter of taste and preference, but at least involves some RP leading up to it. Using those neutral PVP rules in most zones is probably a good idea. If I encountered a level 10 drow on my level 30 elf, I'd rather start an IC game of cat and mouse, a tense encounter, an RP'ed out chase, than flag for PVP and gank-- you get more RP out of conflict that way.

"High ECL race?" I mean, remove all ECLs if it's a problem. People should be choosing races for the RP, not for optimal power builds. Classes are much the same. Should we lock up dwarves in their mountain because they can rack up the AC on Dwarven Defenders and it skews PVP? Probably not. Maybe. I don't know. I don't trust the beards.

I don't think there's anything wrong with maintaining an ICly hostile environment for any drow or other UDer looking to walk the surface in areas outside of seedy ol' Soubar. On the contrary, that level of tension sounds like it could be fun to navigate on both sides. But the OOC hostility towards drow RP that environment, mechanics, and rules promote, aren't going to lead to a healthy environment, nor encourage more players to explore those UD races and themes. Few people want to be forced into a cage with no way out-- I think if the Underdark was a "functional home base that pays utility bills on time" instead of "mapless dark time-out corner for the bad kids, never open the pad-locked door", it'd be more appealing to play in for more people.

So, yeah. I'm all for less restrictions, and I think that most problems and concerns are problems and concerns that can manifest with any character concept, not just those in the Underdark. A dragon, demon, undead, etc. lair becomes just as inauthentically a walk in the park as anything else... if overall player attitude needs to adjust, I think that's a good discussion to have, but UD and potential UD players ought not be the scapegoat in an argument of server integrity.

Roofshadow wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:03 pm I voted yes. I think restrictions could be lessened quite a bit more though.

When I was bright-eyed and new to the server, I wanted to make a drow, and then when I actually walked around on a drow, I very quickly did not want to have a drow anymore. The Underdark is incredibly user unfriendly:

1) The light is too dark and cold. Please, for the love of all that is good in this world, someone install bioluminescent mushroom lightbulbs that give off warm lights. The Underdark is, well, really dark, and the cold, often purple lighting hurts the eyes for some people (me, I am some people). It's not immersive, I'm not an ACTUAL drow who can clearly see and navigate in a lifetime of roaming the underworld, I'm a half-blind player. It's very hard to see.

2) Black maps. Replace them with actual maps. Look, I have the directional sense of a dead possum on the best of days, with a functioning map. My time playing Minecraft is usually me stepping 5 feet from base and then crying for a friend to come pick me up because I'm lost. To be in a region of the same tilesets that also DO NOT have any maps? One of my friends escorted me along the quest route for the UD and showed me around and I politely nodded along like I was absorbing any of these paths when I knew I wasn't, he knew I wasn't, it was just a series of lies because I would've constantly needed my hand held like a toddler walking through a mall so I don't start meandering in endless lost loops through J.C. Penny'matth.

And that's just the Underdark. But that's fine. I don't HAVE to spend my WHOLE life in the Underdark... right? ...well, no, because the rules and mechanics alike very heavily discourage Surface travel. You "need a reason", which is vague and intimidating, and, I mean, I assume most people need a purpose to be in most places anyway. Why are you clapping ogre cheeks in an ogre lair? Why are you buying scrolls from a literal Mindflayer? Why are drow held to a different standard and completely cut off from any kind of progression while on the surface? Why do their tender drow hands suddenly break when reaching for a surface chest?

3) Tear down the wall. Eliminate the Underdark & Surface barrier mechanics. They're OOC, anyway, there's no lore to maintain that involves surfacers being deathly allergic to gaining new experiences when killing a sentient mushroom in a deep cave.

"Lore, Rarity, & Immersion"? I think that ship has long since sailed. You can't walk two feet without running into a noble or noble associate, a tiefling, aasimar, dragon-bloods, fey-bloods, level 30 demi-gods, people from incredibly far-off regions like Kara-Tur, and any other "rare" character concept. Constantly rubbing elbows with archmages at a campfire, or listening to people talk about how they've killed 20 white dragons and bench pressed 100 balors that week isn't more immersive than running into a drow once in a blue moon. Literally. I think I've seen one drow in the wild my whole time on the server as a surfacer. A lot of server lore is homebrewed, a lot of player RP initiatives are homebrewed, and we're all already "Drizzt & Elminster" clones by power level and weekly monster grinds alone, and some entire towns on this server don't even exist in FR lore. There are people constantly adventuring in HIGH HEELS. One person's immersion-break or lore discrepancy or rare and untouchable concept is another person's cup of tea. Why is the line drawn at anything drow-related, except initiatives to lock drow underground via OOC mechanics and rules? It's not like drow going to the surface, or neutral drow, or drow who don't conform to their specific culture don't exist in lore. Jarlaxle is right there.

Additionally, if maintaining a lore-friendly environment is an issue, why not suggest DM events that involve aggressive drow incursions to the surface? That would give surfacers an enemy to deal with, it would give evil drow an event that centers on their own leadership, infiltration, etc. with DM support, and it would give neutral drow one hell of a sticky situation to navigate, being implicated by virtue of who they are. Could even have several drow houses trying to cause havoc on the surface while undermining each other, give players multiple avenues to pit them against each other, pick one to support, whatever they choose. That would maintain the environment, put neutral drow in a still-rare light, and promote stories on all sides. After all, players represent the rare minority of a population, NPCs the majority. Stories like that are a struggle to explore when so many hard, OOC, mechanics-driven walls are maintained.

"PVP-Mongering"? That's just a PVP problem. IMO, ganking doesn't promote any RP, and tends to be used as a retaliatory OOC tool to try and "win" than a way to foster conflict RP. This game is a SP and co-op RPG from over a decade ago, it was NEVER meant for PVP, or balancing PVP. PVP on consensual and even footing is just a matter of taste and preference, but at least involves some RP leading up to it. Using those neutral PVP rules in most zones is probably a good idea. If I encountered a level 10 drow on my level 30 elf, I'd rather start an IC game of cat and mouse, a tense encounter, an RP'ed out chase, than flag for PVP and gank-- you get more RP out of conflict that way.

"High ECL race?" I mean, remove all ECLs if it's a problem. People should be choosing races for the RP, not for optimal power builds. Classes are much the same. Should we lock up dwarves in their mountain because they can rack up the AC on Dwarven Defenders and it skews PVP? Probably not. Maybe. I don't know. I don't trust the beards.

I don't think there's anything wrong with maintaining an ICly hostile environment for any drow or other UDer looking to walk the surface in areas outside of seedy ol' Soubar. On the contrary, that level of tension sounds like it could be fun to navigate on both sides. But the OOC hostility towards drow RP that environment, mechanics, and rules promote, aren't going to lead to a healthy environment, nor encourage more players to explore those UD races and themes. Few people want to be forced into a cage with no way out-- I think if the Underdark was a "functional home base that pays utility bills on time" instead of "mapless dark time-out corner for the bad kids, never open the pad-locked door", it'd be more appealing to play in for more people.

So, yeah. I'm all for less restrictions, and I think that most problems and concerns are problems and concerns that can manifest with any character concept, not just those in the Underdark. A dragon, demon, undead, etc. lair becomes just as inauthentically a walk in the park as anything else... if overall player attitude needs to adjust, I think that's a good discussion to have, but UD and potential UD players ought not be the scapegoat in an argument of server integrity.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And did I say yes?

Edit: Drow culture is also so much more than violence. It's wild. Did you know that in Menzoberranzan, parties are required by law to end at midnight? Or did you know that it's considered an insult to dance armed, but not an insult to refuse offered food or drink? Or that masks and hoods are considered normal?

Drow even have game tents and street performers. They're fond of pranks and slapstick humor and are skilled string musicians. There is so much more richness to their culture than just the brutality.

I actually like current appearance of Underdark areas. There are few exceptions, however, and the most notable one is the Rockrun map. The map of the area is four purple dots on black canvas, and largely because it has some teleportation gimmicks intended to keep the village of Rockrun hidden from outsiders. You know, it is sensible, but a part of me wishes that some parts of it map could be made somehow visible. Moreover, the map itself is largely just hills of same dirt texture, which means that players have to resort to their mouse cursor to see if a slope is walkable or not. After a while you get the hang of it, but the rock run map could be improved. Perhaps join it with more lower CR areas, so it is a little bit more feasible to start from Rockrun. Other than that, I am quite satisfied with the surroundings of Sshamath.

As for the desires for a different city, etc. You know, the calls for traditional house warfare and what not, I would suggest the addition of 'Eryndlyn.' First of all, the central piece of the map could be just three plateaus seperated by rivers and joined by few bridges. The largest goes for followers of Lolth, and the two smaller sections go for followers of Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur respectively. Each plateu could be dominated by a temple for their respective deity, followed by some market and housing areas, etc. As for low level areas for grinding, you could just have tunnels beneath the river, where you could fight against NPC followers of Lolth, Vhaeraun, or Ghaunadaur. You know, your typical low level fighter/rogue/cleric mobs. It would be nice if followers of the same deity would be friendly, but if it is not possible, you could just have mobs of followers from the two other deities beneath their respective plateaus, and above you could have some NPC that offers 25 gp for the religious symbols they drop. The deeper you go in these tunnels, the higher the mob CR grows, and the highest CR at the end of the tunnel chain could be directly beneath the three primary temples. (Not accessible from the temples themselves without DM intervention.)

Then outside of the city, you could have Reeshov, which would be a heavily fortified city players could attempt to raid, pillage, and loot. And as with the tunnels beneath the city, the deeper you go, the higher the CR grows. Fight against those Grimlocks. You could even have a quest to capture some 'Grimlock children' to bring back to some slaver in Eryndlyn.

Beyond that, you could just have few tunnels to connect these areas with the rest of the under and upperdark.

Oh, and when it comes to drow house/clan role-play, each player made clan could have their own house on an area connected to their respective religious plateaus of the city. Thus if drow houses want to war against each other, either their religious enemies, or their more immediate neighbours, they may. As for acquisiton of a player house for a player clan, you could have a DM event to wage war to defeat and claim some weaker clan. You could have such war events to grow the power and influence of your own player house. And if you think about it, it is a pretty simple format for a DM event, because it is just a dungeon to clear with bunch of drow and their slave NPCs. And if two player houses/clans wish to duke it out without DM involvement, you got those tunnels beneath the three plateus, so players could just agree to meet in a certain area and fight it out.

And as for the rest, players who are not interested in the religious/clan/house warfare -- they got Sshamath, which would still serve as the primary source for epic merchants for the citizens of Eryndlyn. Perhaps a clan or house migth wish to purchase the services of some school of magic in Sshamath... etc.

Everything that roofshadow said +1, i voted yes. Many of the people who also voted yes already brought up points i would have brought up myself. I will say this rule suggestion is the result of IC RP and a reflection of the current state of Soubar and the north and how PC's and NCPs have been bieng portrayed to be interactiong with Drow.I get some people are concerned about seeing the entire UD population just in soubar or in the north grinding, which is just about as likely as a party of ten surfacers going into the upperdark. There are about ten or so active UD players, most of us have multiple UD characters. So in order for the entire UD population we would have to.

1. All be on at the same time.
2. All be on characters that would want to travel to the surface.

We have players all the way from the west coast america to Europe, so we would have to ooc coordinate to make sure we can all be on at the same time just so we can go to the surface and what? Hang out at Soubar just so we can troll a few people? Like what is actually stopping us from doing that right now? Same thing goes for supposedly hanging outside of the entrance to the EDE, like, why? Why would we waste our time trolling a few people who play elves? At most usually there are only 3-4 to of us online at any given time. Everyone who regularily plays in the UD is all already friends with each other, anyone who trolls or acts shitty ooc gets called out because its not like we traditionally have had DM's to monitor the player base for us.

And i know people keep saying 'we are not picking on drow players' 'we are not trolling anyone' 'we are not picking on the UD population' or any other varation of those empty words. And those words are empty platitudes when those same people have suggested we simply delete the UD, turn it into another epic level zone, tell the people who play drow and UD characters to simply play something else. Why is it okay for people to tell other players who choose to play UD characters that their time and effort has no value? So what then, should we retcon all the RP that has been done between the various drow factions the ones in soubar just because some NPC 'would never allow this to happen!'. So what other people get to see that their RP has meaning and can change the server but if you play a drow its irrelevant?

I don't think i should have to explain this but when people cry about 'drow are going to ruin everything' what you are saying is that the ten people who actively play drow will be the people who ruin the server for you. Or are these drow you speak of some other players that none of the current UD player base is aware of? Perhaps NPC drow that the DM's will spawn as impromptu antagonists will ruin your fun? I am not exactly sure whom it is exactly that you speak of that will destroy the immersion and integrity of the server, if someone is doing that please report them to the staff so they can be corrected. Just assuming that the UD population is going to get together to ruin everyone elses day is basically the same as calling everyone who chooses to play there a troll that wants to destroy your fun.

Guess what if you think my time, and the time of my friends is worthless, that we should simply retcon all the RP that has been done between the factions of drow and soubar, that we should just play something else, that we should just get rid of the UD. Then personally I wont waste my time roleplaying with you, there are better things the both of us can be doing that way you dont ever have to worry about a drow ruining your immersion.

The scale of total players on the server to the actual imaginary population of the Forgotten Realms Sword Coast is way off. The games maps are also out of scale with the size of the actual make believe, Sword Coast.
So for some players seeing one drow on the surface is like seeing a thousand of them. This is especially so if that player sees the same drow multiple times.
And it is understood by most of us that too much UD presence on the surface is lore breaking.
But, the Lore-lawyers can concede that a little UD surface presence, is not lore breaking. And it can be stretched to a little more if it is done with intrigue.
Understanding the limitations of the video game one can conclude that sticking to lore too rigidly is unrealistic in and of itself. But I can also understand that that the lore should still be protected as much as possible.
I'm sure compromise can be made in this situation. Although, I still do not think it will revive the underdark.

A bit off topic a smidgen:
I like the talk about changing the UD to make it more in line with a traditional UD setting. Make it more closer to what most of us UD fans imagine it to be. SO SEND IN THE SPIDER QUEEN!!!

This would involve a lot of changes – like a lot, a lot!
And although I think there is interest in the community to create these changes I doubt the admin would allow it. In my opinion they do not want the headaches that a more conflict orientated UD would bring them.

Conflict and evil RP is stifled as much as possible and at the end of the day it is because people can not handle being pvp'd.

What if the Admin turned to us today and said, “no more coddling the care bears, their pride will mend....eventually- BRINGONTHESPIDERQUEEEN!!!!!”, and started supporting conflict RP and supported stronger faction building?

I still dont think it will bring a lasting presence to the UD at least not without a lot of continuous love and attention. The love and attention that is already needed on the surface.

So you would have to:
1) re-brand/reinvent/recreate the UD to something more in line with a traditional UD.
2)Loosen control over Conflict and Evil RP
3)Have a couple dedicated DM pushing plot lines on a regular basis.
4) All the while trying to keep the surface active and interesting at the same time

Thats a tall order.

So maybe instead you can just allow a drow or svirf to to skulk about part of the surface once in awhile.
m'kay?

As a pretty much exclusively UD player here is my take on the thread so far...

Starting with an easy one, I'd rather not delete the UD and make it an epic dungeon

As far as drow in the north and KOS rules, honestly I'm somewhat ambivalent. My main character is a Bregan D'aerthe drow that has had and still has meetings in and around Soubar on the semi-regular. Mostly with evil factions but also with a surprising number of good aligned folk looking for objects or information. I treat going to the surface as a dangerous trip and pretty much assume that if I happened to be spotted by a group of surface elves on my way they would try to kill me. So I go with an RP reason, and expect to be attacked if seen. Pretty much standard for the way things are now.

However I think a change of attitude towards some of those relationships would be good for the server overall. Some of those meeting with evil factions were to build alliances that I think would be helpful to everyone were they allowed to come more to fruition. Bregan had a cozy relationship with Zhenterim leadership for awhile. That leadership ended up leaving the server over their own frustrations, but I think if more came of that relationship than sitting around in dark corners talking about things that would never happen, then maybe some of those players would still be around. Zhents (or any other evil faction) making secret deals with drow and something coming out of it- whatever that something may be- is pretty lore appropriate anyway. And I think that the less it seems like we're breaking the rules "UD PLAYERS MUST HAVE A REASON TO LEAVE THIS CAVE," the more momentum meetings like these can generate to the point of involving DMs. UD players are, by necessity, pretty proactive about generating RP.

To me the place where KOS falls down a bit, and I think to the detriment of the server as a whole, is how a one sided KOS rule can completely eliminate RP. And this thought is actually pretty new to me. Recently, one of my alts was up on the surface to AFK buy some amulets from Greenest. Banovitsky and I had gone up to look at some epic areas first and the purchase was an afterthought. (One of those areas was Rad Icarus' relatively new High Moors Bandit Hideout which, if you have not been you really should go, it's beautifully constructed and well thought out with some interesting challenges for level appropriate players, but I digress.) We forgot Greenest was on server 1 so when we transitioned to the new area in between Greenest and Thundar's Ride our bugbears (packhorses) appeared. We didn't want to risk losing them by running all the way back through multiple hostile maps so we just decided to hang out an be evil drow for a bit. Which unsurprisingly lead to my death. BUT... the RP leading up to it was just golden. Honestly it was really fun and my impression from private PMs after was that at least some of the surface players involved (I didn't talk to everyone so don't want to speak for everyone) were happy to have some 'living' unpredictable bad guys to deal with. There wasn't much of a fight. We were outnumbered and not remotely equipped for a PVP encounter, but the fight was not the meat of it, it was the RP before and after (I hung out as a dead prop for a bit ). KOS has the ability to completely eliminate some fun and very lore appropriate RP. It also seems pretty out of character for most players already anyway. People do tend to RP leading up to a fight even if they don't have to. KOS really seems to be more of an OOC shield for gankers to hide behind.

That whole experience shifted my thinking a bit. I need to also play some non-Bregan non-deal-making drow because 1) it's fun for me and 2) it's also fun for good guys that want some bad guys to play off of a bit. Doesn't mean I want to run around trying to gank surfacers, just that I will have a character to play that evil drow role for anyone who wants to play opposite. But it's the 'play' part that is fun. The RP of it. NWN2 PVP mechanics are terrible.

I know there is the bogeyman of PVP gankers if drow set foot on the surface, but honestly I saw plenty of surface vs surface PVP mongers when I primarily played up there. That kind of problematic attitude is particular to players, not player bases (i.e. surface or UD players as a generalization).

I also think the concern about drow breaking immersion by just 'hanging out on the surface,' is a bit overblown. I can't speak for everyone in the UD but with we are a pretty tight knit group and with very very few exceptions most of us just prefer to spend most of our time in the UD. Making the journey to the surface is fun when there is an RP reason to. It gives us something to do besides grind and just RP with each other. But it's not something we always want to do. If I wanted to wander the surface aimlessly I'd play my surfacer. Whatever his name is again.

So ultimately my vote is to ease the rules, mostly so that it officially matches the way things tend to play out between the surface and UD player bases already. Leave the IC hostility in place, but lower the OOC hostility that UD players often feel every time we head to the surface even if we have a good reason to. The OOC call out in the ogre cave man... it's just so mean!

As far as other issues, the UD definitely could use a larger population but it is not completely dead either...

DM Dreamer has been very active in the UD lately. We've pretty much had an event every weekend.

DM Vanquish has crashed a few late night loot runs in the last few months with an assortment of monsters to break up the monotony. Nothing brings an old routine area more to life than the unexpected.

Today there was eight of us hanging out at Mist Lake. I checked the scry on a whim and realized Mist Lake was by far the single most player populated map on the server for a good few hours. Of course there were more player on the surface overall but spread out over the entirety of it. If you wanted RP, Mist Lake was the place to be today.

One thing I have seen brought up in this thread several times is the idea of 'too many hubs.' There is an aspect of this I respectfully disagree with. At one point there was a Lolthite city, whose name I cannot hope to spell, either fully built or almost built. If it exists I think it really should be added. The reason I think this is also related to some previous posts. Traditional drow RP is very different than what is typically found in S'shamath. The clergy sitting at the top of the food chain, houses vying for power, xenophobic drow more interested in enslaving surfacers than trading with them... there are players looking for a more traditional UD experience who cannot find it in S'shamath and ultimately choose not to play here because of that. I am not one of those players but I have spoken with them and feel their frustration. I know the argument is, it's just another hub. But if we gives those players a place to play maybe they will indeed play here again. If that city exists somewhere it wouldn't hurt to at least try it for a bit.

Lastly, yes the UD can be a bit user unfriendly if you don't know your way around. Anyone who is interested trying it out but intimidated by the strange and sometimes hostile layout of it all, feel free to PM me (same player name as forum name) if you see me on. I will be more than happy to help set you up, show you some quests and find some IC reasons to drag you to areas where you can earn some XP safely. It's not just me either, Banovisky, Easter Cheese, really just about anyone, the UD player base is actually quite OOC friendly and helpful in general.

We don't bite. We just pretend to bite.