Feint and how its supposed to work.

[Rainbow Prism]

You don't have to specialize in Feint. Just max it out when you level. Even if your base bluff is 33, you can get it to 50+ by picking up some gear that raises bluff. That bluff would be enough for many mobs on this server. Just don't go feinting those warrior-types. They tend to have High BAB.
PvP though is a different matter altogether. Some builds raise spot, some don't. Those who don't are susceptible to feint, those who do are affected only if you specialize in feint. Sometimes not even then. Like if an elven ranger had spot of 70+ which is not that unusual.

[Vadenor]

oh i dont really care about pvp....its more about feint not working in PvE that drives me nuts...

for example...a goblin fanatic with 29 spot



do you know what mob has 29 sense motive?

The sheer amount of cognitive dissonance this particular skill causes when used is just....baffling....simply....baffling....*aneurysm*

[Vadenor]

I am? Usually people over NWN2 call me the most horrid power gamer out there.

thus you are the patron saint of gimped classes and abilities, much like saint Jude is the saint of lost causes .

[Blackman D]

you think that was bad how about this one!

yes wolf... as in the ones you kill for jorn...

[blixen71]

I have a sorcerer/thief feint specialist and getting a high enough bluff to feint ANYTHING BUT dedicated spotters is possible. 80+1d20 bluff. To get this you have to dedicate your character totally into bluffing (charisma, buffs, feats and items).

Feint would be crazy overpowered if the defender could not add a skill to their BAB to defend. So overpowered that it does not matter what the PnP or D&D says about it. Anyone with a maxed bluff skill could auto-flatfoot anyone, take off their dodge and DEX AC + land sneak dices free. It would be a world where everybody fight feint style, how realistic is that? And it would totally off balance the AB vs AC, You would have to have +6/+7 AC items to offset the flatfoot AC loss. That again would make +4 weapons too weak for those not useing feint. A change like OP would ruin balance for sure.

Feint is bugged when looking at how it should work in the first place. According to the rules the effect of feint shall apply to 1 attack only, but Obsidian messed this one up too (not surprised). So it is already too powerful according to rules, since it applies to one less attack then your total attacks pr. round, following the feint attack (regardless of what flurry you feint in). Feint in the last flurry and the target is flatfooted in the next rounds highest BAB attacks.

Leave feint hard to master!

[Vadenor]

i dont want to make a gimmick build....nor do i particularly want to "bluff out" my item sets...again, i think the problem with this system is your forcing people to min/max by having unreasonable things in game.

and again the whole balance argument....so you flat-footed someone, now you get one or two attacks (dual wield) that you have to land and you have to feint again...

You should also consider the average base AB of a rogue as well as their relative HP.....

maybe i would like to see feint fixed so people dont just all roll assassin HIPS build...Or pick grinder builds that rely on trusty autoattack n' smack...

i mean really....diversity is fun...

[Rainbow Prism]

Only it really wouldn't be diversity. Everyone would feint because it would be easier that way. You want to be different, you want to feint rather than use HIPS but you don't want to put any efforts, nor do you want to pick up an appropriate equipment that raises the skill you need - something that even HIPSters need to do. Don't you see any problem with that?

[Vadenor]

hips would still function better.

I am capable of stat stacking, im just saying its simply grossly exaggerated to what i perceive my character is capable of...but i will do it to achieve a "normative" sense of play....aka i am able to feint things....

Only it really wouldn't be diversity. Everyone would feint because it would be easier that way. You want to be different, you want to feint rather than use HIPS but you don't want to put any efforts, nor do you want to pick up an appropriate equipment that raises the skill you need - something that even HIPSters need to do. Don't you see any problem with that?

Easier in what Sense? your Blanket statement doesn't even have an example.

And concerning HIPS, you are Diverting the topic. This is not a comparison, i could rant about how tons of crap isnt fair, like bigby's, or the insane damage on multi-shot. Stop it. We are Not going there. there is the topic of feint being inline with how its supposed to work in the actual PnP game.

The second thing is you took an accusing tone...*twitches*...Moving on.

The current system is you invest two feats into something that you should get for free and still gets destroyed by random gibberlings and even lvl 1 wolves...

The general consensus i got from the server is that people like to make things as in-line as possible to the actual 3.5 system, i think this is a glaring issue that should be addressed. More importantly, its not an opinion thats whacked...its so far out of synch with the rule book its a clear case.

[Rainbow Prism]

Frankly, some things in PnP books are so OP that I would never wish it was here. Also, from your comments, I see that you don't know how feint here works (and I strongly suspect sneak attack as as well given that you think dual-wielding gets you only two sneak attacks). If anything, it is one of the OP things there is. You perform insta-action and for the rest of the round every attack you make (except that first attack that you used on feint attempt) ignores opponent's DEX and Dodge AC. If you are a dual-wielder at the 30th level with 26 BAB and PTWF, you get 11 sneak attacks. Add to that the fact that any partners of yours at that time can also sneak attack the opponent for that round.

[Vadenor]

a move action gives you only a standard; which is only 1 attack at your highest base attack bonus in the books. Two weapon should add one and haste should add one, to a total of three, the IB rule shouldn't be implemented, since a "free action" is something that is DM "regulated"...and then everyone would play my class T.T.

[c2k]

oh i dont really care about pvp....its more about feint not working in PvE that drives me nuts...

for example...a goblin fanatic with 29 spot



do you know what mob has 29 sense motive?

The sheer amount of cognitive dissonance this particular skill causes when used is just....baffling....simply....baffling....*aneurysm*

Hostile creatures get an automatic +10 to their spot roll while being pickpocketed. Then there is those special spotter spawns.


As for Feint, would be nice to have sense motive... only problem is Feint is hard-coded. You'd have to make a script and overwrite it.

[Blackman D]

Hostile creatures get an automatic +10 to their spot roll while being pickpocketed.

hostile doesnt get a bonus to spot the DC to succeed is 10 higher, friendly and neutral is DC20 and hostile is DC30 on the attempt

if their base spot is higher than normal then thats the script

[oyclo]

I've been gone a week and missed this thread.

I have a dedicated fienter. Basically everything is geared towards making it work, and it works well though only because I've put literally EVERYTHING into it. I find this ok because otherwise it would be grossly overpowered in many situations. I do think that some creatures need a bit of a nerf in spot, and that the 'spoter script' which makes some spawns unfeintable which I assume is a side effect to lower the power of hips could use a tweeking.

I think a feinter/hipster/epic precision character would be far far too powerful if they didn't also add the higher spot values.

You gotta give up something.

[Blackman D]

feint is strong thats for sure, i dont have any dedicated feinters but all my rogues have it, its a great party ability when you are with other rogues who dont have it, or any who have sneak dice

without focusing on bluff you are usually still able to feint a few mobs here and there with just maxing out ranks, the ones that dont have high BAB or high spot... like enemy casters... ya know the ones that need to die really quick or it really hurts

[blixen71]

On this issue I can promise the original poster that I know what I am talking about. I play 2 dedicated feinters, one caster type all the way to 30 and one fighter/rogue in epic too and they sacrifice a lot in feats and items to master feint. But it is so powerful, when mastered, I can promise it is worth the effort.

If you could get this for free (only max your bluff as you suggest) the whole game balance would be a big damn joke. Anyones desire for this game to be PnP-like is nice, but you cant do that on cost of game balance. This is for sure! Fixing the feint bug (should apply to only one attack), mail Obsidian . It is hard code and cant be scripted.

HIPS is easier to master since the defender dont get any BAB added to his check, but it cant be spammed. Remember you can attempt feint as many times pr round as you have attacks and the effect will last for one round after it succeds, not only for the feinter but the whole party.