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[Atlas]

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[scriver]

Nobody has criticised your proposed bug fixes, Atlas. Please don't make yourself a victim just because people disagree with you, even if they do so in a rude manner.

@About Bards - I was thinking more in terms of actual mechanics. All Paladins have is the "Aura of Courage", if I recall correctly, while conceptually Bardsongs and Inspirations (or whatever they are called) are pretty much the main deal with Bards - and those powers are majorly about buffing or weakening people/enemies through, well, inspiring emotion through music. I won't deny that Paladins might be the "leaders" or the martial commanders (though you have to agree that Bards are totally the faces ), that wasn't the part I wanted to adress. I also don't disagree that in the fluff, they might be the "inspirational dudes" as well, but this isn't reflected in how their mechanics were envisioned, beyond them giving a big "inspirational" bonus against fear, I guess. There's just nothing from which to draw the conclusion that they're supposed to inspire such things as martial prowess rather than just bravery in there.

[Simian]

If there is something I would want to add to Paladins, it is the variant listed in Unearthed Arcana on page 58.

Paladin
The paladin who takes an active role in hunting her foul enemies must give up her defensive powers.
Gain: Favored enemy (as ranger; may only select aberrations, dragons, giants, monstrous humanoids, evil outsiders, or undead).
Lose: Lay on hands, turn undead, remove disease.

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Heal is a class skill to Paladins. In fact, the following are class skills for a Paladin: Concentration, Craft armor, Craft weapon, Diplomacy, Heal, Lore and Parry.

Concentration: It has it's uses, but total skill rank of 18 is enough for the uses of Defensive Casting for a Paladin.
Craft Armor: It does nothing.
Craft Weapon: It does nothing.
Diplomacy: It makes sense to have, but not so crucial.
Heal: It makes sense to have, but not so crucial.
Lore: You can put ranks, but if you are short on skill points consider something else.
Parry: Avoid at all costs.

Cure serious wounds heals 3d8 + 15, at best that is 39 hit points. On average, 28,5. At level 15, a Paladin can have 18 skill points invested in the heal skill, and probably +2 from Wisdom modifier for a total of 20. Therefore, using a mundane +1 healing kit, our paladin can heal for: 1d20 +1 +20, which is at best 41 and on avarage 31,5.

Typically, paladins have invested in their strength ability score and therefore, carrying few tens of healing kits shouldn't be an issue. Which leads to a logical conclusion how this suggestion doesn't really do much at all, it is bit of a dud when it comes to mechanical power. But as for adding it in game, I think this ability should cost a feat and it should be available to bards and all divine casters classes, basically all classes with healing spells of somesort.

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But what I really want is that variant possibility posted above. It would make playing a paladin slightly more reasonable for the non-optimal races such as Half-Orcs, Tieflings and pretty much everything else with racial penalties in Wisdom and/or Charisma.

Just think about it, Tiefling Paladin hunting Demons and the like.

[Atlas]

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[Larzs]

Meh, I've seen this same thread pop up by you several times in the three years I have been on this forums and it all ends the same. Nothing really gets added/changed. While I gave up on playing paladins when I started NwN2, it was all I played on NwN and I played them in the single player. And from a playing stand point, Paladins are fine. Sure single player gear makes a difference, but build wise I see nothing wrong with them. I always played Aasimar 20Pal/10DC.

Playing a Half-Orc already puts you already at a disadvantage and you made that choice. I always went Full Cha, Divine Might/Shield and...whatever the hell that 60 Ft Light AoE Heal Burst was. May be creative and original but really did it all yourself. I could really care less about your weapons or whatever that was about....but this is getting old hat.

There's just nothing from which to draw the conclusion that they're supposed to inspire such things as martial prowess rather than just bravery in there.

Was King Arthur a bard or a Paladin? nothing really inspire a group like a dude going in headstrong against stupid odds. There is also a lot of spells and "Divine" feats that just aren't in NwN2. Bards generally aren't the leaders of groups, the more are in taverns and luting away there...

[scriver]

Was King Arthur a bard or a Paladin? nothing really inspire a group like a dude going in headstrong against stupid odds. There is also a lot of spells and "Divine" feats that just aren't in NwN2. Bards generally aren't the leaders of groups, the more are in taverns and luting away there...

None of this goes against any of my points in the post above

Also, Atlas, I apologise for half-derailing your thread with this. But you know. Arguments and the internet.

[Atlas]

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[Simian]

But the problem is, you need to invest in Charisma as a Paladin. It is the ability that affects your smite evil and turn unded based divine abilities, and without those the class is not much at all to write home about.

That is why I have brought up that variant rule. You do not qualify for Bane of Enemies, but still, you get to do more damage against monsters Paladins usually fight against. It gives an option to ignore the Charisma/Wisdom gap that makes it almost impossible to play a Paladin in this game. Otherwise, you might just as well roll out as a Fighter 12/Divine Champion 8/Anointed Knight 10 and call it a Paladin. It's not a bad option, but the suggested Variant rule would make Paladins more viable for a multitude of races.

[c2k]

If you want to argue that Paladins need something in regards to not have a Bonded Mount, I can buy that argument because even the Black guard gets a silly Dire Rat for its evil cohort ability. If sdpells are really bugged, then I agree they need to be fixed.

But Paladin is fine where it is right now. They don't need anything extra. Your average paladin is an Aasimar build that will be able to get EDM and do significant damage. And if you build the smite route, while you may lack the output to seriously farm epic areas for long periods of time, you can absolutely crush most of the epic bosses on this server. Sure, it might not be able to out perform a Favored Soul, but there is not much out there with the power and the sustain a Favored Soul provides.

[Atlas]

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[Simian]

If there is something I would want to add to Paladins, it is the variant listed in Unearthed Arcana on page 58.

Paladin
The paladin who takes an active role in hunting her foul enemies must give up her defensive powers.
Gain: Favored enemy (as ranger; may only select aberrations, dragons, giants, monstrous humanoids, evil outsiders, or undead).
Lose: Lay on hands, turn undead, remove disease.

It is a legid PnP variant. While it allows you to make a viable out of less popular races, it doesn't actually produce anything that is stronger than a standard Paladin on an Aasimar.

[Knightmare]

With the full CL and all the new spells paladins have received, I think they are just fine as they are.

[Simian]

With the full CL and all the new spells paladins have received, I think they are just fine as they are.

And I am still saying that giving them a weaker variant is a good idea.

[Atlas]

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[Knightmare]

Now, now, I don't really think it is warranted to complain about the paladin class when it is taken into consideration how it used to be.

Full caster level and many new useful spells have transformed the paladin into something perfectly viable and not just a dip class for EDM. Now you can have both EDM, +5 weapons, keened weapons, +5 shields, toughness, damage reduction, extra damage etc. if you choose to go level 20+ with the class. Futhermore, if going relatively pure, it will not be dispellable by anything but mages (and weapon/shield buffs even stay on).