Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Said Lvl 30 Ranger I was speaking of is the one you well know to be one of the biggest bad asses on this server and furthermore, WM/FB saves are not that great.

@mreider - In answer to your question. All round best would be Druid. Plain lvl 30 druid. They're monsters. Tougher than mages, higher DC's than anyone(generally), access to healing and regen, DR, buffed animal companions which are a match for most fighters, shape shifting, huge spot/listen/survival and instant immunity to crits. They want for nothing really and don't need stealth or HiPS. They are very, very, very solid allrounders.

Of course, if you're unbuffed and standing next to a Fighter/WeaponMaster/Frenzied Berserker and PvP starts you still may as well put your head between your legs and kiss your arse goodbye.

AC81 wrote:@mreider - In answer to your question. All round best would be Druid. Plain lvl 30 druid. They're monsters. Tougher than mages, higher DC's than anyone(generally), access to healing and regen, DR, buffed animal companions which are a match for most fighters, shape shifting, huge spot/listen/survival and instant immunity to crits. They want for nothing really and don't need stealth or HiPS. They are very, very, very solid allrounders.

Of course, if you're unbuffed and standing next to a Fighter/WeaponMaster/Frenzied Berserker and PvP starts you still may as well put your head between your legs and kiss your arse goodbye.

Now, this I can agree with

Maverick 40 wrote:Simian,

Firstly, this is not my Druid. Second, the lvl 30 Druid I know is crit immune, so how is a weapon master supposed to be effective. Third, I watched a lvl 30 Ranger with Bane against the Druid's race, favored power attack, improved power attack, and expose not do squat against him. In fact, my level 30 gish, the level 30 ranger, a fighter/sor/arcane/elemental archer and finally one epic ranger/assassin/elemental archer took damn near five minutes to take this one PC down, when he had already wasted all his spells.

I'm sorry, you do not dissuade me, I don't deal in hypotheticals

I never said it was. I was referring to the presented druid. And as for the the statement: "There is always a build that defeats your build. " It just means that there is always a build that defeats your build. Every build has weaknesses, and if those weakneses are abused, you can defeat it. Sure, as others said, the skill behind the screen plays a role, but in the theoretical situation where you are playing against an equally skilled opponent, in other words yourself, the build designed to defeat the other, wins.

As for the efficiency of that Dire Charging Frenzied Weapon Master. You get more AB and Damage for the first round you pummel the dragon. It is given that the Dragon Shaped Druid is immune critical hits, but the damage output per hit of a Frenzied Weapon Master exceeds the 30/Adamantium DR and the regeneration based buffs. All you need to do is survive, which as one of those UMD using Fighter/Weapon Master/Frenzied Berserker/Rogues is not all that difficult. Due to how UMD works in NWN2 the Druid cannot dispell you, while you yourself can pretty much negate every single spell the Dragon Shaped Druid casts and use Breaches and Mords to even strip some of the Druid's buffs if you so desire.

This is just playing on the biggest flaw of the Dragon Shaped Druid, which is their lack of UMD. In fact, I'd be far more terrified of a non-Dragon Shaped Druid.

And let's face it, Frenzied Weapon Master is one of those builds that is easy to level from level one to thirty. You can use it to grind and gain the wealth required to make use of UMD. Hence, while there are better builds with higher non-critical hit damage output, on our server the Frenzied Weapon Master is just the most sensible appreach to go at.

So, let me finish this post by quoting Valefort:

Valefort wrote:As far as I know for an equally prepared WM/FB a dragon shaped druid is like a tree, you chop it down slowly, but he won't kill you.

Maverick 40 wrote: Dedicated Druids would have a listen around 60-65, that plus 5 for stillness and the 20 listen check means you are basically busted.

It's funny how no one realizes that you can twitch HIPS no matter how high your enemies spot/listen is and no matter how low your own hide/ms is.

I tested it in Vordan's hero creator for once, made a char with only basic req. for SD and boosted his spot/listen up to 80 then did a self conquest.

The character was not able to prevent "himself" from HIPS and the AI stopped doing actions on it's target when I did.

Only certain creatures that use settings similar to the spotter script are able to bypass HIPS and that's just because they ignore certain stealth/invisibility flags in the first place. I don't know the specifics, but playing it's common knowledge. The Balor and other high CR bosses work like this and so did the Golden mass murderers of the Beregost war

Dragonshaped druids lose out on 3 DC.

-1 DC (Grey Orc doesn't apply wisdom bonus after wildshape)
-1 DC (Epic Casting, lost from not being able to abuse practiced caster)
-1 DC (Drop Epic Spell focus for Dragonshape OR drop two great wisdoms for Dragonshape and Epic Animal Companion)

That puts them at DC 41, which is the same DC as wizard 27/ Eldritch Knight 3 builds

Simian, you don't get to complain about spirit shamans anymore. EDM Spirit Shamans are a perfectly acceptable powerbuild. DC based Spirit Shamans are better than DC based Druids with blood magic due to Charisma being a better stat. Spirit Shaman Monks are insane due to Owl's Wisdom. Spirit Shamans are now perfectly viable, your spirit shaman is just gimp.

Also, The DC 45 Red Wizard from my notes:
Wizard 11/ Red Wizard 10/ Spirit Shaman 9 -- 10 {base} + 11 {Natural Int} + 2 {Fox's Cunning} + 3 {Epic Spellcasting} + 3 {Epic Spell Focus} + 1 {Enhanced Specialization} + 1 {Spellcasting Prodigy} + 1 {Fey Power} + 9 {Level 9 Spell} + 4 {Blood Magic} = DC 45 Dominate Monster or Hold Monster, Mass -- Must Take Red Wizard at level 7 rather than 6

I have killed dragon druids plenty of times. It takes time and effort, but it can be done. Druids' offense is straightforward and unimaginative. In general, well equiped EDM FS with Expose Weakness will take down a druid without much sweat.

PvP is a process of employing measure/countermeasure. There are no Iwin tactics, there is only optimal timing for using available abilities.

P.S.: You can bigby 9 Dragons.

Removed.

Seymor wrote:Simian, you don't get to complain about spirit shamans anymore. EDM Spirit Shamans are a perfectly acceptable powerbuild. DC based Spirit Shamans are better than DC based Druids with blood magic due to Charisma being a better stat. Spirit Shaman Monks are insane due to Owl's Wisdom. Spirit Shamans are now perfectly viable, your spirit shaman is just gimp.

EDM stands for for two things, Epic Divine Might and Edam Cheese. Let us assume that you build for EDM, you have MEDIUM BAB progression combined with 26 or 28 Strength with Bulls and around 22, 23 or 24 Charisma without innate ability to cast Eagle's Splendor. Therefore you reach about AB of 35. Cleric or Favoured Soul builds reach at least AB of 55 and with more Divine Might damage than than our EDM Spirit Shaman. I'm not saying that a EDM Spirit Shaman is unplayable, it's just not a powerbuild. You could technically use the spell shapechange after using EDM, but you're just burning out ninth level spells to re-apply EDM. Although, you could leave Strength at 21 and increase your charisma little bit higher. (But even at this case, an EDM based Sorcerer Gish would be superior.

As for a honest DC based build with Blood Magic, you'll want at least sixteen wisdom, as much charisma as possible and the rest in charisma simply to survive the self inflicted damage from the use of Blood Magic. The DC is as high of that of a DC Druid, which is pretty much the only perk of the build. The Druid has more spells to cast, better immunites such as immunity to Critical Hits under certain Wild Shapes, and out of shape thanks to Oaken Resilience feat. Yes, I am a big fan of spontaneous spell-casting, but in this case the druid will have the spells you will cast as Spirit Shaman memorized and some more on top.

Monks with ten levels of Spirit Shaman can benefit from the self generated 'Owl's Wisdom that grants +7 to Wisdom.' A Spirit shaman with those three levels of monk levels only gains ranged AB and AC. You can cast the spell shapechange at level 21 and have really high damage, but due to the ban on using the 'Quickcast-bug,' you will not be getting the Electrical Damage from Storm Avatar, Fire from Flame Weapon, or even Piercing damage from Thorn Skin. Hence, your damage output is pretty much the damage dice of the shape + strength modifier. It's around 15-32, which isn't all that spectacular I'm afraid.


As for my Spirit Shaman, he has no EDM, no DC, nor Monk AC. Actually, he doesn't even have a rank in UMD. Yet, he can solo pretty much every single area on the server. It's not surprising as I have actually min-maxed his build to be what Spirit Shamans can be at best, average.

Average, like those three builds you threw at me.

Moon Domain clerics > Dragon Druids, just putting that out there.

And it is not really possible to say anything is the 'best', aside from maybe anything with at least one level of Dungeon Master avatar.

if you want to be good in any situation you need either HIPS or quickened "invisibility-like" spell
thats the base to escape all unwanted ancounters when you are unprepared

dmg monsters are fine if they can speed up and unleash the power beofre you prepare
if you are prepared there are some tactics they cant evade

to defeat (make him hold in place) a freznerker/weapon master wizard needs one spell
if the frenzerker is near he needs 2 spells
if he is near and has UMD enchancers he needs 3

the build knightmare posted wiht 3 SD levels is top tier and could befighting for best one out there

but personally i would also give some Red Wizards a place in the frst row
evokers and abjurers with current archmage class...
abjurer you cant practically dispel with any spell
evoker will have so high CL that Bigby will never, ever miss and will last longer then any other wizard ones which means in case you Bigby each other yours will last longer and you will be free before your opponent = win

but any wizard with HIPS and CL around 30 will eat any melee for lunch

Lvl 8 BM's Awaken Blood ability is also a great boon to the offensive capability of a pure blaster.
It's an instantly activate feat, meaning that you can hit it at any time of combat round, delievering instant 10d10 magic damage with not RTA or SR check, however, it will clean your Action Queue, so better hit it either at the end or at the start of the combat round.
Throwing Quickened Force Orb + Maximized Force Orb and combining it with this ability will deliever a total of 105 - 240 magic damage in one round. Though, must make 2 RTAs. Depending on the type of enemy you're facing it can be quite enough to finish off with Power Word Petrify.

EDIT: In general, BM can be pretty much a god of PvP simply because of how powerful the Scarification is. (Or was, from my experience). Full CL Bigby with activation time of wand (faster than Quickened) with the ability to cast Quciken AND normal spell same round. Gives you a good impression of how dangerous it can be.

Best PvP build? DM.

Best PvM build? Forum whiner.

Pvp?
Anything with vampiric feast, then a clickfest at a social gathering like the previous campfire of FAI. Maybe the campfire outside baldurs gate will do, it is safer too since most gathering there just started.

PvM?
A campfire roleplayer, itll never see a monster and thus will NEVER loose a monsterfight. WIN.


On the serious side, no one mentioning warlocks?
Considering the builds ive seen tanking the Balor more or less alone...

AC81 wrote:@mreider - In answer to your question. All round best would be Druid. Plain lvl 30 druid. They're monsters. Tougher than mages, higher DC's than anyone(generally), access to healing and regen, DR, buffed animal companions which are a match for most fighters, shape shifting, huge spot/listen/survival and instant immunity to crits. They want for nothing really and don't need stealth or HiPS. They are very, very, very solid allrounders.

Of course, if you're unbuffed and standing next to a Fighter/WeaponMaster/Frenzied Berserker and PvP starts you still may as well put your head between your legs and kiss your arse goodbye.

We really should have an animation for that in the PC tools.