Pale master Summon greater undead question

[Valefort]

Swashbuckler 14 should have STR drain on critical hits though.

[Laenor]

You're mistaken.
CGU summons level 15 warlock / warrior.

Still, I agree that the palemaster summon should be based on the CGU Warrior

Nah, Laenor, it'd be way too strong. It has already been a huge buff to extend CGU, which now outshines pretty much everything else if you extend it (why on earth would anybody get Gate?). If we make the same call for the PM summon, which is neverending, it's going to be ridiculous: an UMD Wizard can transform the summon into an "all day long puppet PC" with all the buffs you can safely dump on it...It is going to be really, really strong.

I don't think we Need more power, to be honest. I really don't like to play overpowered classes.

Gate has always sucked. Even without the duration buff, no one used gate before.
Currently, it's either Elemental, or Undead.
The elementals aren't as good as the undead, but undead makes you KoS on the surface (basically a pain to deal with when you use them and get spotted), so it's pretty much even.

Note that an extended CGU lasts for one hour, it's more than enough for 99% of the content around here to be cleared.

[Corax]

Note that an extended CGU lasts for one hour, it's more than enough for 99% of the content around here to be cleared.

Agreed. Which is why it should never have been done in the first place...let's not make the same mistake ...

[ohboy007]

Pale Master have a great deal of goodies already, nope, not needed at all.

Sadly, though, the PM9 Greater Undead is better than the PM10 one. The PM9 is a fighter with knockdown. The PM10 is a swashbuckler with a dominate person ability of useless DC. Would be better just to have the PM9 one a bit buffed rather than the silly swashbuckler one.

They do about the same kind of damage anyways.

Might be a good compromise if the 9th level fighter is as good as described.

[Laenor]

Note that an extended CGU lasts for one hour, it's more than enough for 99% of the content around here to be cleared.

Agreed. Which is why it should never have been done in the first place...let's not make the same mistake ...

I'd love to hear you tell me why some summons should last 1mn/CL and why others shouldn't.

In epic levels, when soloing, a caster has to rely on either summon, dominate monster or AOE killing.

[Corax]

Note that an extended CGU lasts for one hour, it's more than enough for 99% of the content around here to be cleared.

Agreed. Which is why it should never have been done in the first place...let's not make the same mistake ...

I'd love to hear you tell me why some summons should last 1mn/CL and why others shouldn't.

In epic levels, when soloing, a caster has to rely on either summon, dominate monster or AOE killing.

Because they are too strong. Casters are not supposed to be able to summon and buff a creature which is going to be pretty much eternal and equivalent to an epic PC following around, just as Melees do not cast Magic Missiles. I believe it's called "encouraging Party Play" by the staff. Could be wrong on that, and if I am, please some staff member, chime in and correct me.

What Needs to be understood here, is that the more you push to raise the strength of already strong builds, the less room you leave to variety, because the PW Monsters Need to be adjusted accordingly so that said builds are not over the top and Players can be challenged. It is good norm to ask for variety and RP flavor, never additional power. As Valefort correctly put it elsewhere, it becomes an "arms' race", and the fun, Balance and variety are gone.

[Laenor]

Because they are too strong. Casters are not supposed to be able to summon and buff a creature which is going to be pretty much eternal and equivalent to an epic PC following around, just as Melees do not cast Magic Missiles. I believe it's called "encouraging Party Play" by the staff. Could be wrong on that, and if I am, please some staff member, chime in and correct me.

What Needs to be understood here, is that the more you push to raise the strength of already strong builds, the less room you leave to variety, because the PW Monsters Need to be adjusted accordingly so that said builds are not over the top and Players can be challenged. It is good norm to ask for variety and RP flavor, never additional power. As Valefort correctly put it elsewhere, it becomes an "arms' race", and the fun, Balance and variety are gone.

A buffed to the teeth greater undead has ~260 hp, AC32 and AB 35 (might be slightly off)

That's pretty far from "an epic PC". Sure, it's a strong asset. But you're also paying
- a level 8 spell (CGU)
- a level 6 spell (Gr. Heroism)
- three level 3 spells (IMA, GMW, Spider Skin)
- a level 2 spell (Bull)
to get a summon that strong.

I could also count haste, but usually, as a wizard, you'll have some haste spells memorized for personal use, so I'll just keep them out

Note that against real epic creatures (Fire/Frost Giants), these summons, even buffed to the teeth, start having trouble hitting and/or surviving.

[Snarfy]

Pale Master have a great deal of goodies already, nope, not needed at all.

Sadly, though, the PM9 Greater Undead is better than the PM10 one. The PM9 is a fighter with knockdown. The PM10 is a swashbuckler with a dominate person ability of useless DC. Would be better just to have the PM9 one a bit buffed rather than the silly swashbuckler one.

They do about the same kind of damage anyways.

Or just trade the summons and make the swashbuckler the level 9 and the warrior the level 10. Voila! Problem solved.

... but seriously, like Valefort said, not needed. PM is disgustingly powerful as is. Unless of course you're in the camp that thinks having crit immunity, stacking natural armor bonuses, near ful caster progression, and a billy ass little pet vampire isn't powerful enough ... and all at the cost of a level 3 arcane spell requirement! *gasp!*

[Elthan]

Because they are too strong. Casters are not supposed to be able to summon and buff a creature which is going to be pretty much eternal and equivalent to an epic PC following around, just as Melees do not cast Magic Missiles. I believe it's called "encouraging Party Play" by the staff. Could be wrong on that, and if I am, please some staff member, chime in and correct me.

What Needs to be understood here, is that the more you push to raise the strength of already strong builds, the less room you leave to variety, because the PW Monsters Need to be adjusted accordingly so that said builds are not over the top and Players can be challenged. It is good norm to ask for variety and RP flavor, never additional power. As Valefort correctly put it elsewhere, it becomes an "arms' race", and the fun, Balance and variety are gone.

A buffed to the teeth greater undead has ~260 hp, AC32 and AB 35 (might be slightly off)

That's pretty far from "an epic PC". Sure, it's a strong asset. But you're also paying
- a level 8 spell (CGU)
- a level 6 spell (Gr. Heroism)
- three level 3 spells (IMA, GMW, Spider Skin)
- a level 2 spell (Bull)
to get a summon that strong.

I could also count haste, but usually, as a wizard, you'll have some haste spells memorized for personal use, so I'll just keep them out

Note that against real epic creatures (Fire/Frost Giants), these summons, even buffed to the teeth, start having trouble hitting and/or surviving.

Solutions:
1. Realize your own build will not be buffed to the point of being alpha at the expense of everyone else.
2. acquire the summoner PRC when it's out
3. Realize your summons aren't your main source of dps/survivability (luna is working on a dreadmaster which on it's sundren incarnation has up to 3 summons - no idea what the plan is here)
4. all of the above

[Laenor]

You're mistaken here.
I do not play a Palemaster.

But I agree with the fact that the pale master greater undead could be improved to be on par with create greater undead.

[mrieder79]

Changing the PM10 summons from a level 14 swashbuckler to a level15 warrior/vampire (random choice) is not going to make it the "Alpha" over any other class. What it will do is make more sense. It is sort of silly that the Pale Master who dedicates time to study undead is unable to make his or her special summon even as powerful as a regular generalist wizard who chooses to cast create greater undead.

[Valefort]

Just make the create greater undead similar to the lvl 10 PM summon, problem solved.

[Corax]

A buffed to the teeth greater undead has ~260 hp, AC32 and AB 35 (might be slightly off)

That's pretty far from "an epic PC". Sure, it's a strong asset. But you're also paying
- a level 8 spell (CGU)
- a level 6 spell (Gr. Heroism)
- three level 3 spells (IMA, GMW, Spider Skin)
- a level 2 spell (Bull)
to get a summon that strong.

I could also count haste, but usually, as a wizard, you'll have some haste spells memorized for personal use, so I'll just keep them out

Note that against real epic creatures (Fire/Frost Giants), these summons, even buffed to the teeth, start having trouble hitting and/or surviving.

Say you stay with those numbers. I also agree that Haste is over the top, btw! Defeats the purpose. It IS an epic PC, because it's an Undead: immune to crits, regen 5 hp/round, immune to mind spells, death spells, and so on. However, that is not what I was referring to: with a few ranks in UMD, you can buff it with divine stuff also. Understand that all this wouldnt be that strong, because as you say, you invest in it. HOWEVER, the summon is ETERNAL. That would make it totally overpowered. Eternal, buffed with buffs from the wizard spell list and the others (UMD). Sit back and cast a spell once in a while to Speed up the process...or let it tank, then Wail on the Group he is tanking.

It's too much for a summon. Arcanists are supposed to have a fair amount of troubles in this department, this solves a bit too many of them.

I would get back CGU to 1 round/lvl, max 1 round/lvl + x (say, 5 rounds Bonus, or sth, like certain Paladin spells). You ARE right that the PM summon is currently too Little of an Advantage in light of that Change. I however disagree with the direction you wish to take to fix it

[Enaylius]

Swashbuckler 14 should have STR drain on critical hits though.

I'm just not seeing the typical palemaster taking the time to create and perfect intelligent undead who survive on dexterity and cunning.

Not withstanding obvious questions such as: How does a master of necromancy stop undead Mealirs' from propositioning and running off with undead Misharas'?

[Knightmare]

Implement the epic spell "mummy dust" and make it require 10 levels of palemaster. Then the class can get access to their truly epic undead minion.

Seems fair that the PM has to invest a feat on it seeing that is doesn't take anything to qualify for the class like it does in PnP.