I hope this can be made a Class Rule

[Weavron]

No offense Azmodeth, you said you read my comment but your long tangent does not reflect it. You spoke of it bothering me, but if you had read what I wrote you'd know the reasons. We are playing a "Role Playing Game." We create a character based on what the world has to offer, the server follows PNP 3.0/.5 rules and lets you know what is home brew and so yes - it is just to respect the rules and boundries of class and a PRC..... else you undermind it's purpose... heck you might as well make a warlock and say that you're a wizard if you're going to go that way for it because, you know, forget the "realism."

Roke, you do make some what of a point but even sorcerers have to "Study" and refine and focus into their art or it doesn't progress..... you may be a naturally talented writer in RL but if you do not practice and practice that natural talent means nothing... sorcerery is a natural talent and thus it requires practice. Azmodeth I highly recommend you read everything I said, including PDF I posted.... it's nice of you to write in reply to this discussion and I thank you for it but what you have to offer is half baked and doesn't really make sense within the content that has been established.

From what I gather from you so far, and a few of the others that replied, you're basically saying - "Meh.... lets not worry about it means and do what we want." Which... defeats the purpose of... well.. everything... all together. Also, if you find that a defined field of magic is boring then... I am not sure what to tell you... you probably shouldn't be playing a wizard >.> they require a lot of thought, it is no light weight class to play if you actually want to explore the possibilities with one in rp.... not everyone is cut out to play one... and that isn't elitism it's blunt facts... some people are simply not smart enough....

[Azmodeth]

okay gimme a min, maybe I lost track in my tangents sorry haha.. I admit I do that sometimes without realizing it, especially this late at night when I can't sleep...

ill come back and edit if anything after..

Okay well, I don't think I missed anything, save those pdf's sorry im not gonna go read them..

But look, FR is very very well defined. that being said, it is also so undefined its got room to incorporate whatever you can dream up... it has just enough rules and guidelines that you can play and have fun, and stick to what you like in terms of rules and such if your the DM etc..

this is not PnP, you even said that. The thing is, we can't control what classes people play, and trying to do so over complicates it...

the team could easily stick into the PrC's that you can not be some of the other classes etc..

But the way forward is the path of least resistance, its healthy for the server, and theres fun ways to go around ignoring the sense of some classes. This is after all make belief, and the rules inregards to lore and such, are stronger guidelines then absolutes...

its more enjoyable for the majority of people to let others tell their story in RP by how they are who they are, then to explain it for them, why they can not be whatever class combo's..
I hear what your saying about the PrC's.. they're special in that they are Prestige classes, exacting focuses, narrower fields of study with higher levels of concentration.

But, when something can not be done mechanically, usually the first rule would go to what is mechanical, its better to support what is possible mechanically then what is not. It creates a more fair playing ground for everyone to enjoy.

However, your not limited of forced to play like everyone else, you can enforce your own restrictions based on your own beliefs on your character you create, and NOT combine bloodmage and palemaster as an example.. and even RP it and such IC...or even RP how ridiculous such people are - IC..

people with many prestige classes are doing 1 thing. powerbuilding. That is so we can all be tough and powerful enough to be satisfied with our characters prowess and leveling progressions, and be able to loot and just be happy - BUT we make up for such a thing, by lightly enforcing RP IC by being apart of the ongoing story, and contributing to it via our actions and reacting to others...

Overall, its the spirit of the fair game play that should be balanced before restricting PrC's and eachother. You are what is on paper, True. that's even one of the rulings somewhere or something said every so often - however, you can have more freedom in RP...

who is to say you didn't move onto another study... that being a boodmagus was who you were once, and then, you decided to be the Palemaster - you haven't forgotten the things you learnt, however, maybe abit rusty here and there...

I just don't agree with enforcing a ruling on it, is there some backstory to why you bring it up anyways ? did something happen ingame to give you a moments pause and feel this was something being exploited or not fitting with the server ?

Im just thinking maybe there smething more to what your saying, or meaning, or the reasoning..

I don't like dissuading people from freedom of speech and stuff, but I also reserve the right to say my 2 cents too, but I like trying to find compromise , fitting somewhere inbetween..

maybe theres another way to accomplish what you are aiming for, and still allowing others their freedoms..

anyways another idea is, while a palemaster 10 wizard 20 might be a truer Palemaster going all out on anything related to palemaster and such feast and skillwise/build wise then say some mix of wizard/frostmage/bloodmagus/palemaster...

but in rp, theres thing that the palemaster/wizard will have/can do that the other can not, more focused, more capable in their field of study...

all the other prestige classes maybe add more ability overall in other ways, but they're also less focused.. even if both classes have 10 levels of pale master.. one might be much more capable and gifted as one, and shine more so....

so, Im thinking, maybe instead of reading how many levels they have in one class maybe look at how much specific focus is given to that class overall, not just mechanically, but also in RP...

maybe we sometimes learn all these subjects and focus in life on something else entirely.
Maybe a frostmage is also a palemaster, but maybe they're really not that good at it, or that focus'ed and maybe never rely on the palemaster abilities but instead, rely on a heart of ice and their coldness... Perhaps, they are weak in their rp and their a mix of both.. never really standing out well defined in ether, or maybe their all in one direction and even other feats/skills/classes, are all synergiesd to one class in particular - only furthering another focus by divisifying.

Like learning about the enemy and understanding them in the art of war. When you can truly justify being the enemy and can fight for their clause, only then can you easily defeat them, because you know what it means to be them. Like complimenting what you know by experiencing opposites and studying them, that's valid in some studies...

[c2k]

Shadow Adept is supposed to be an app only class, unless that changed?

[AC81]

I am aiming to gauge people's reation to my suggestion and to see if others agree or disagree with it.

And I disagree. Calling my opinion "idiocy" because I dared disagree with you is hardly going to help your cause.

...to follow the rules of a PRC.

Where are these rules that explicitly state that these PrC's can't be mixed. Does it actually say Bloodmage can't mix with Frostmage etc etc, or is that just your interpretation and you've then gone and made a homebrew rule for your tabletop campaigns?

The problems I have with this are:
1) If these PrC's are as specialised as you say then they shouldn't be able to mix with ANYTHING else except base wizard or sorcerer. (Eg, you're a frostmage ... you can't go and study blood magic, but hey, go and get a knighthood ... no worries!) This is the path you're headed down.
2) Mechanically DM's will then be required to rebuild many PC's AND they must then review all other class combinations that you deem unlikely. Sounds like fun for them ....
3) You'd be taking this server down the road of hardcore RP. They don't last long, and I really want this server to last a long(er) time.
4) Players who've done this AREN'T godmoding, because nowhere in the nwn2 or bgtscc rules does it say they can't. I can think of at least a half a dozen (of the top of my head) very good RP'ers that have 2 of your mentioned classes.

Anyway, if you're so set on making this happen, open up a poll, let the BG community vote. Talking around in circles cannot create change.

[Simian]

I highly, highly, recommend you read the lore I posted for you to have a better understand. I also recommend you read what it means to be a wizard, you do not seem to understand, no offense, what these classes mean.

Frost Mage comes from Frostburn.
Blood Magus comes from Complete Arcane.
Pale Master comes from Libris Mortis: The Book of the Dead.
Shadow Adept comes from Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.

Frost Mage has no multiclassing restrictions.
Blood Magus has no multiclassing restrictions.
Pale Master has no multiclassing restrictions.
Shadow Adept has no multiclassing restrictions.

Now I have to admit that the 'lore' implementation does vary between our server and PnP source material. (You could compare the Blood Magus description in the source book and on our forums for example.)

But if we focus on the PnP material and inspect the "special" requirements of these PRCs, it is not hard to come up with a reason why qualification for Frost Mage or Pale Master would also open the path for Blood Magus. Pale Masters have to spend three days locked in a tomb with undead. Frost Mages must have spent 24 hours in a blizzard unprotected. Both of these activities are likely to kill the arcanist, and when the arcanist is brought back to life, they also full fill the special requirement for the Blood Magus prestige class.

As for Shadow Adepts, they have simply stumbled on the existence of Shadow Weave in one form or another, which has either raised or inflamed their curiosity to the extent they start to carefully study or outright thrown themselves into the throws of Shadow weave.

It sounds to me you are basing your argument entirely on homebrewed rules. The thing about homebrewed rules is that those are rules you use at your home because everyone around the table has agreed to them. But the problem is that this server is a very large table and this game has been going on for five years already; it is too late for homebrewed limitations and changes. These prestige classes are out there, and they are open for all who desire them.

And as for reading what it means to be a wizard, have you read Terry Pratchett? But more seriously, wizard is a base class. When something is a base class, it literally means that it is the base which you built upon. It provides the support pillars upon which you build your wizard, and just because you built your wizard the way you did does not mean others have any reason to build theirs the same way. Someone might build an Elminster, while someone else might build a Wizzard.

We are not playing with the AD&D set of rules, the base and prestige classes of the 3.X edition are best described as lego bricks. Base classes are your stock rectangular blocks, and prestige classes are the differently shaped bricks. You build what you want to play with, you build what you want to role-play as.

Shadow Adept is the study of the Shadow Weave... it has nothing to do with a full focus in those schools. Sure, the shadow weave can use any school of magic but it's focus really is on Shadow Magic (in and of itself) and illusion.

There is nothing in the Shadow Weave that would forbid a caster from having other interests. Other focuses, other desires.

It's important to read the lore and to know what these classes mean. You should understand that these clases are "indept" focus.... You do not have to have them to rp a Shadow Mage who uses blood spells... that is fine, but a Blood Magus is on a whole different level all together. A frost mage literally changes half of his race, due to the prime frost he works with that is how advance that is.

A blood mage has a full blood transfusion. A shadow adept permanently ties themselves to the Shadow Weave. Pale Master turns their living arm to an undead appendage on their still living body. And Frost Mage gains a 'cold' creature subtype. These 'end results' are not mutually exclusive. And there is no mention that any of these prestige classes need special focus or effort to maintain these 'radical changes.' Once you have acquired them, you have them.

And when a Blood Magus/Shadow Adept casts spells with Blood Seeking Spell, you have to role-play that. It is a well established server rule that you must role-play what is on your character sheet.

I should also note.... This is not "pnp" obviously, like these PNP classes are meant for.... there is a lot of lore... work that goes into them and in this game you just really lvl with no real monitoring of your progression on those classes... you should realize that these classes require a lot of work/study and from what I understand by an ic sense... from what I've been told a lvl 30 is considered in idea to be like a lvl 15 pnp standing ((Since epic are near godly lvls or around that)) So by the perspective... you're always also studying those fields.

You earn experience points. When you have earned enough experience points; you reach the next level and can unlock new abilities and skills by leveling up in a base or prestige class. That is the fundamental basis how characters grow in Dungeons and Dragons. Because the game is called Dungeons and Dragons, the game play largely focuses on exploring Dungeons and slaying Dragons. It is not all our characters do, but it is the primary selling point of the game. Therefore, if someone wants to give greater emphasis what their characters are doing while transitioning on the world map or what they are doing when not adventuring, it is simply their choice to make. If you want provide great detail on the effort your character has seen, if you just want to give a quick mention what he is doing, or if you just assume that your character gets those fine points done on its own - it is fine. It does not matter which option you chose, as long as you continue role-playing based on what is on your character sheet.

Also, mechanically everyone reaches level level 30. But when it comes to NPCs, you could say that your own levels are divided by two, or that the NPCs' levels are multiplied by two. It depends how you look at it.

But generally, large numbers of NPCs are usually compiled into one NPC to reduce lag.

It's important to realize that 10/10 BM doesn't mean that RP is over... there is always growth and stuff to do with it just as there is for PM and SA and FM. what this post is truly about is making sure there is an awareness also to what these classes really mean... it's like trying to combine a Pale Master uses divine magic in it. Shadow Adept uses the Shadow Weave specifically, Blood Magic relies in your blood and your focus and understanding of its soul importance.... Frost mage realies on the Perma Frost, I thin kit's in one of those two PDF if not I'll add it too.... Each one has something "very" specific it nails on above all other things.

Prestige classes are inherently limited in their scope. Hence 10/10 in Blood Magus means that you have mastered everything you can learn from the path of Blood Magus. There is no additional growth or knowledge to be acquired on that path. And just because there is no more growth, it does not mean it is the end of role-playing, it is just a transition from someone someone taking Blood Magic 101 to someone with Doctratre in Blood Magic. This same holds true for Pale Master, Shadow Adept, and Frost Mage.

As for your statement of a Cleric/Wizard/Pale Master being impossible, according to Libris Mortis; it is a fairly common combination. After all, in PnP, Pale Master requires "knowledge religion" and armour proficiencies to have all their class abilities in use.

And there is really nothing preventing a Shadow Adept from improving his or her frost Spells with the Piercing Cold ability from Frost Mage, and even further via the innate strength of his blood through the Blood Magus prestige class.

You might think these are mutually exclusive, but they are simply not.

And as for Paladin/Barbarian. The only reason why you cannot have that combination on our server is because aligment changes are largely non-existent, and I do think there is a mechanic that would prevent a Lawful Barbarian from Raging. There is a custom mechanical that prevents a Paladin from spell casting if they 'fall.' But these limitations and consequences are actually written into the classes themselves. These are not pulled from thin air.

[BullDogg27]

Personally I get what he is saying and i tend to agree for the most part, however we allow so many ridiculous class combinations with no real penalties we my as well leave it as.

[Aelcar]

Personally I get what he is saying and i tend to agree for the most part, however we allow so many ridiculous class combinations with no real penalties we my as well leave it as.

We most certainly do not allow ridiculous class combinations. Those listed are not ridiculous class combinations that I can see.

We DO, however, from time to time have inexperienced players who cant come up with a decent story for their easily justifiable class combination.

I dont believe that's a rule problem. It's a talent/experience problem: not everyone who plays NWN2 is a storyteller, or has read thousands upon thousands of books. Nor it is required for them to be.

[Weavron]

Thank you for responding this time with something reasonable for me to respond to, it does help have discussion on this with something legible offered up.

AC81, I noted that calling my reactions to this as "elitism" was idiocy, I've clearly placed the voice of what I've been writing within reason and have supplemented it with Source lore. You may feel however you like and you're entitled to that, but you should know I have no interest in a pissing contest with you.

Now then, on to the beaf of what you and Montaron Alagondar, which was quite delicious post, have made. Thank you Montaron Alagondar for noting where they come from, I hope that means you "did" read where I get my information on these PRCs from. Bulldog, you do make a reasonable point but you three fail to understand the core of my point lies not only in the source lore but further more in the concept implied in it all together. These are not easy fields, they take time and a lot of research unless one tries to under mine their value.

I was fairly certain I added this, but just in case I didn't

http://www.themarcia.com/RPGA/DnD35refe ... Mortis.pdf

That is Libris Mortis again, the PDF of which PM comes from and by the way Shadow Adept does have and PRC from a PNP/PRC book class.


Montaron noted:

"Frost Mage has no multiclassing restrictions.
Blood Magus has no multiclassing restrictions.
Pale Master has no multiclassing restrictions.
Shadow Adept has no multiclassing restrictions. "

You're correct, in their description there is no "Cannot be cross classed. My opinon, something I need to underline I do not have to make my sentences hopefully as aggressive as I have been, is the following.

Wizard is, yes, a base class. The Class "Wizard" Is based upon accessing the Weave, of which Mystra (depending on the time frame defines which one - should be, I believe, Midnight at the moment.) There are eight schools for a Wizard, of which spells are researched and organized under.

Through Wizard's structure, "Schools" of magic oppose in more than one way. In Thayan Lore this played our with Schools of Abjuration fighting Schools of Conjuraiton. You can also this in MoTB for example.

Now then, each school has a purpose.

Evocation: Aggressive, normally elemental, magic or pure arcane force.
Abjuration: This field covers Barriers and rejections (Notably dispel for rejections, or banishment. Barriers being like the spell Shield.)

Now then, I gave those two examples because Schools, in DND have more value to them than just that. All schools break down into "sub" schools, micro focuses if you will that spawn their base PRC variety. The following is an example of this.

Necromancy touches on Life and Death... it literally means that and you see it in spells. A healing spell is considered necromancy. There are varieties of necromancy, blood (part of the life half) typically covers things relative to it. Diseases, vampiric touch and so on and derived magics from it.

The death half, of course, covers the undead and summoning spells and what have you. Now, I've established two sub fields in necromancy : Death half and blood half of it, but there is also a negative side to it as well.


In rp, for those who value the dead half, there several PRC for it of which Libris Mortis offers. You can read about some of what I posted from that book. I am merely summerizing the accumulated knowledge into something with depth.

Pale Master, and True Necromancers are prc for those interested in undead domains. Pale mastery is, as the PRC reads, a mix of Divine and Arcane. The path you take to this, if you read it, is clearly different from the others because what it focuses on is not the same... after all do you see divine energies in the shadow weave? No, and why is that? Well it is the under current, so to speak of the Weave which is "arcane."

Blood Mastery is also in one of the PDF posts I made, so while it doesn't strictly say there is no penality, it is obviously implied in the depth of the classes themselves because what they focus on are clearly not the same thing if you read about them to understand them

Trying to alter them to fit your character simply doesn't work and undervalues the meaning the class has. Ultimately it is the staff that will make this chose and to be fair I doubt this will be made a rule but it is, none the less, something to consider because of what these classes mean.


I call this god modding because, to me, it's like saying your character can master being a paladin, and Barberian, at the same time without any more conflicts.

Also, Paladin Barbarian doesn't work for more than alignment reasons. What those two classes "mean" are not the same thing. Barbarian is wild, paladin is not.... they focus on two different things and that is my point with those PRC schools.

[BullDogg27]

I'm not going to get into a pissing match, but i have always believed that there are many class combinations that do not make any sense at all and i'm not going to name those combinations because i don't feel it would benefit this discussion. I am not taking away from the talented builders we have, you guys do a awesome job at building some incredible builds. But lets not kid ourselves some of them regardless if mechanics or rules allows it do not make sense.

[Weavron]

I can somewhat see what Bulldog is saying because of Weapon Master + Frenzy Berserker builds. WM requiring focus, dedication, and training and sense on oneself (hence the KI) while FB... is well... what it says it is - a rampager. This does kind of defeat the purpose of him not saying it as to not undermine this discussion.... however..... it has a subtle point in it that should be compared to the one I am making with the mage prc.

[ragnarok1983]

My only snarky question:
Doesn't having a badarse undead arm (Palemaster) kinda sorta gimp you as a Blood Magus? I mean... you are down to one arm that has blood in it.

Oooooooorrrr, do you just keep the other arm in a iced up sack, and use that one for some blood? *imagines the blood Magus just totally walking around with a bloody super soaker in his undead hand*

[BullDogg27]

I can somewhat see what Bulldog is saying because of Weapon Master + Frenzy Berserker builds. WM requiring focus, dedication, and training and sense on oneself (hence the KI) while FB... is well... what it says it is - a rampager. This does kind of defeat the purpose of him not saying it as to not undermine this discussion.... however..... it has a subtle point in it that should be compared to the one I am making with the mage prc.

I wasn't naming combinations because it would cause more arguments and some players would take it as a personal attack. I'm the first to admit I am guilty of some of these builds and yes I can come with an RP reason why it makes sense but lets face it i chose them for practical reasons not because the build made sense. Everyone has a concept in mind and everyone wants to have a strong character and when mechanics and rules allow such builds to exist, Myself and other players will take advantage of it.

[Salival]

Well, I dont have my necro/palemaster/blood magus anymore. But if I did. I would tell you to shut up. Really I would. I had mine rp right, snd there was nothing odd about it. You are trying to change the whole server. For if you make this crap of a thought into a rule, many mages would need to be rcr'd then you'd have to make it so every class can only have one prc cause people will start whining. I'm guessing you met someone more powerful and it butt hurt you. I dont know. But people everyday whining how this or that is unfair, and lets make huge changes that we affect a lot of people cause you only care about yourself and your ways. I sick of it. This needs to be locked. Cause this is retarded. Cry cry cry. More than one prc.... many ppl/classes have more than one prc..... i should have just put this crap I was taking in my eyes and not the toilet instead of read this. I like this game and server, but hate how some people think....

[BullDogg27]

Well, I dont have my necro/palemaster/blood magus anymore. But if I did. I would tell you to shut up. Really I would. I had mine rp right, snd there was nothing odd about it. You are trying to change the whole server. For if you make this crap of a thought into a rule, many mages would need to be rcr'd then you'd have to make it so every class can only have one prc cause people will start whining. I'm guessing you met someone more powerful and it butt hurt you. I dont know. But people everyday whining how this or that is unfair, and lets make huge changes that we affect a lot of people cause you only care about yourself and your ways. I sick of it. This needs to be locked. Cause this is retarded. Cry cry cry. More than one prc.... many ppl/classes have more than one prc..... i should have just put this crap I was taking in my eyes and not the toilet instead of read this. I like this game and server, but hate how some people think....

Hence why i don't think the rules need to be changed.

[Aelcar]

WM/FB: a character with a military background, excellent aptitude with his weapon. He gets chosen by a master in the art of fighting with said weapon, that teaches him everything there is to learn about it. The character in question becomes a veritable weaponmaster. Then, when he goes to war, his wife gets slaughtered by invading hordes, her village sacrificed for a greater battle by his king/warlord/whatever. He starts to be increasingly bitter, angry and lose temper more often than not. Cold rage. He starts fighting with abandon, and leaves organized armies for causes that suit his sense of justice. He joins those like him, and learns to fight like them. Barbarians/FBs.

EXAMPLES: Mym (Wielding a Red Sword), Guts (Berserk) among others.

BM/PM: a character that has a learned scholar's background, very strong mind. He studies under a very famous arcanist, who becomes his guide, mentor, hero. However, this arcanist is in truth a necromancer, and the character, strongly influenced by him, dabbles more and more into the dark art, until he starts even to experiment on himself (undead graft, bone skin...). Testing the limits of this approach (PM 10), and finding that he cannot achieve "perfection" solely based on that, he begins to reinforce his other "half", the living part of his body, by increasing control over his blood and employing rituals to become increasingly resistant. Sliding more and more towards evil, he confronts and slays his (evil) mentor, takes his books and belongings and flees civilization to seek a place of solitude to further develop his powers.

EXAMPLES: Foor Arontala is a Vampire and a Blood Mage (The Chronicles of the Necromancer, book one), The Blood King is another undead Blood Mage (book two).

We DO, however, from time to time have inexperienced players who cant come up with a decent story for their easily justifiable class combination.

This is an l2p issue. People think "l2p" means kill enemies with a character. It's a misconception.