Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Thids wrote:Just to clarify I think both should take it as an opportunity to end that character's story.

I agree - as I've said before, if more people treated this as a storytelling device and not as a game that exists for them to "win", things would be much better IMO.

Baboonicorn wrote:

Thids wrote:Just to clarify I think both should take it as an opportunity to end that character's story.

I agree - as I've said before, if more people treated this as a storytelling device and not as a game that exists for them to "win", things would be much better IMO.

I agree to what the Baboon said. Though... I've been there on this server, to the permadeath thing. ..And I might go back there soon, with one of my character, and it scares me a little.

I felt rather sad for quite a while after Randall got permakilled, even if I agreed to it. Not for the reason of having 'lost', because I went along with that. But for the reason to have to put a STOP to the roleplay I exchanged everyday with a few friends. I mean, I did try to create another character to share new stories with friends, but it was never really the same. The links you forge between characters are really strong sometimes, when you see this game as a way to live your character's stories, and it hurts when there's an end to it, even if it 'feels right' when the time has come for a character to die. And I'm not talking only for evil characters here, because Randall was a chaotic good character of alignement who started neutral and was later given good alignement points by DMs.

I've tried to reforge links as I said, but it's hard. It even made me leave the game player side entirely for two years, and focus on DMing only for a while.

Anyhow, I'm not saying characters facing permadeath (good or evil) should always evade it, but it does hurt to lose a.. I'll call it a 'vessel' for enjoyment. ...Okay it might not be a good term for it, forgive me, I'm french.


Besides, just for curiosity's sake. Has there been another good-aligned character ever permakilled? I know of Charraj who recieved a 'Permadeath Strike', but none which have been permakilled because of X event.

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True. I should have remembered that one.

Though if I remember right, it's him who specifically asked it to the DMs, to go out in a bang. What I meant is more of a 'forced' permadeath, as there's plenty of good fellows who 'retired' their character by their death.

Uuuhh ... *Sees Peehell's characters approach and runs the other way screaming ... not again NOT AGAIN! * ....

Keagan Wyndsoul, captain of the Weave Guardians, was the first to be permakilled on this server. He was good. It was during a long set of events that culminated with being captured in the UD, held captive (unplayable), and forced to fight an ally in the pit (Ujio) and then being used as undead. The Weave Masters organized a recovery op for his remains. Pretty sweet plot of events that set the stage a couple years later for the Tolerance is Treason campaign. All of it was voluntary to help create story arcs, and boy did it. Lots of forum RP around all of that was erased though, for some reason.

Broham2 wrote:Keagan Wyndsoul, captain of the Weave Guardians, was the first to be permakilled on this server. He was good. It was during a long set of events that culminated with being captured in the UD, held captive (unplayable), and forced to fight an ally in the pit (Ujio) and then being used as undead. The Weave Masters organized a recovery op for his remains. Pretty sweet plot of events that set the stage a couple years later for the Tolerance is Treason campaign. All of it was voluntary to help create story arcs, and boy did it. Lots of forum RP around all of that was erased though, for some reason.

Here is what remains of that plot.

http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=451

Baboonicorn wrote:
Evil surface characters should expect the odds to be stacked against them. If you create an evil character, plan for his or her demise. While, as Hitman says, the best evil characters are the ones who survive tormenting the forces of good for a long time, you shouldn't be afraid of being the villain of the week if the story is good enough..

Deleted.

The "evil" characters I find least enjoyable to RP with are the ones that jump to threats and violence too quickly. It usually feels like your RP regardless of how much effort you put into it will be outright ignored. You could say -

"Hello, my name is Uglunk, mind if I hunt wyvarns with you?"
to which they respond -

"You going to make something of it? How about I stick the sharp end of this skewer in your eye since I don't like your tone!"

or you could say -

"Give payment to the church of bane and fear will spread from your sword into the hearts, minds, and souls of the fools who face you." to which they respond -

"You going to make something of it? How about I stick the sharp end of this skewer in your eye since I don't like your tone!"

you could even say -

"I am a Paladin of Tyr, a just and honorable god!"
and you get -

"You going to make something of it? How about I stick the sharp end of this skewer in your eye since I don't like your . . . Oh wait, I actually have a reason to fight this one!"

. . . this gets lame really fast and I usually find myself simply ignoring these characters since they are intent on only rping with a select group of oocly attained allies and events. Regardless if your character is good neutral evil lawful or chaotic they have predetermined that PVPing you is their only option since . . . well. . . I'm not sure exactly why this is. Even Demons and Devils are willing to work with others so long as it benefits them in some way. "That gnome illusionist might make training go faster with his ability to teleport. That dwarven fighter would serve as canon fodder. That tiefling rogue could unlock traps for me." etc etc etc. You can come up with reasons to work with others just as easily as you can come up with reasons to kill them. Remember if your character went around threatening to beat up/kill a large percentage of people he ran into he wouldn't have survived very long before getting hung no matter what lvl he is.

Thids wrote:

Baboonicorn wrote: The issue here, though, is that where evil wins (on the surface), things usually change for the worse for everyone else.

If an evil dragon managed to eliminate the Dukes and replace them with puppets of their own choosing, the entire setting of Baldur's Gate would change.

If the Temple of Bhaal took back the Friendly Arm, the adventuring community would need to find a different landmark to hang around outside.

In the Underdark, obviously, Good takes the role of Evil here.

Evil surface characters should expect the odds to be stacked against them. If you create an evil character, plan for his or her demise. While, as Hitman says, the best evil characters are the ones who survive tormenting the forces of good for a long time, you shouldn't be afraid of being the villain of the week if the story is good enough.

I don't think the OP was proposing that an evil PC should face permadeath if they're caught threatening little Jeremy for Lady Adora's bracelet, but if their master plan is foiled and they are caught, it seems fair for that character's story to end.

I was not quoting the OP I was quoting gedweyignasia. Thinking there is a "winning" side is the wrong approach here. As is thinking that the evil characters exist to serve the rest of the server for advancement of their RP/story/character development without offering the same in return. Also I am not talking about dragons invading Baldur's Gate, liches turning entire populations into their undead servants and similar things. I thought the server population has made their stance clear on epic cataclysmic events which shake the foundations of several planes at once in the polls over the last few months

Why should I prepare for my evil characters demise any more than I should for my good and neutral aligned ones? Are you trying to say that if an evil characters master plan fails and it results in his death he should stay dead, but if a good aligned character fails to defeat an ancient evil in a long plot and it results in his death he should stay in fugue for a minute or two (depending on his load times) then come back to FAI and be like "oh well, let's try this again!"?


Just to clarify I think both should take it as an opportunity to end that character's story.

As I said before, I'm for permadeath for both sides when appropriate, it's just easier to overlook a neutral/good PC not permadying. The virtue of permadeath isn't that it retires a character, it's that it makes their life meaningful when they're living. If you play a character and promise yourself you'll permakill it when it's killed by a player or DM (and not revived by Raise Dead or Resurrection as appropriate), you'll find that character behaves differently. Life and death are actually a matter of life and death again.

AlwaysSummer Day wrote:The "evil" characters I find least enjoyable to RP with are the ones that jump to threats and violence too quickly. It usually feels like your RP regardless of how much effort you put into it will be outright ignored. You could say -

*snipped for space*

Evil characters have to jump to violence and threats quickly because the good characters are going to beat them to the punch. You don't know how many times I've tried to stay in dialogue with my warlock only to have to flee after the "target" decided, while we were RPing or at least attempting such, to send tells to all of their good buddies and tried to turn the tables on the situation. Rping evil here makes you paranoid, and paranoia makes you much more likely to push the trigger faster.

Of course, there are exceptions to this rule. I've had some fruitful interactions players without having to resort to PvP or threats immediately and I felt the outcomes fair, even when they didn't favor my character. But more often than not, an evil character is met with harsh resistance via ooc action, getting hostile'd and PvP'd on the spot, and/or considered a joke before the RP begins, which leads to evil characters resorting to taking the initiative in order to have a fair chance.

Eclypticon wrote:Sometimes, you should play not to win. Every now and then, an Evil PC should die and stay that way. Your actions are so bad, sometimes there needs to be IC consequences.

Just because you are evil, does not mean you cannot be good (give to the poor, feed an orphan. RP good things, It is OK. Only Ao knows what you are really doing if he even cares to. Your motives may include good deeds outwardly, but inside is something else.

And what about good people who are caught, tortured, beheaded, and thrown in to an incinerator? This is what I seriously don't get about some players who play good guys. Good people should face permastrikes just as easily as evil ones. There is no magical "good" barrier that protects your character. Slip up talking smack to a balor when your lv 10 and your toon gets smashed, well don't you think that's just as severe as a warlock who summons demons in the center of FAI? This paragraph should include all alignments.

Which brings me to my next point. Most good characters on here play their roles rather well. But good toons who throw themselves head first into danger against overwhelming odds really irk me when they do not want to face the consequences. Your lv 15, quit thinking you can take an elite vampire on with several baddies around all by yourself. And when you do talk IC smack, dont go crying to the DM's that you were bullied. You made the decision to have your character do something absolutely stupid, and when the consequences of such actions means your guy gets beaten up or killed, be a man and a RPer and take it.

Remember, even if your good, it does mean you have to throw away your characters life stupidly. That is no more idiotic than an evil PC running down the BG streets and stabbing everyone they meet in open daylight. When I played my good character, I didn't go around challenging baddies I knew I couldn't take in a fight and then cry to DM's about being picked on. Heck, my sorc got swarmed by a a whole team of good guys with no RP out and I rolled with it...and escaped with Fael . Less crying and more RPing please?

ohboy007 wrote: You don't know how many times I've tried to stay in dialogue with my warlock only to have to flee after the "target" decided, while we were RPing or at least attempting such, to send tells to all of their good buddies and tried to turn the tables on the situation. Rping evil here makes you paranoid, and paranoia makes you much more likely to push the trigger faster.

Of course, there are exceptions to this rule. I've had some fruitful interactions players without having to resort to PvP or threats immediately and I felt the outcomes fair, even when they didn't favor my character. But more often than not, an evil character is met with harsh resistance via ooc action, getting hostile'd and PvP'd on the spot, and/or considered a joke before the RP begins, which leads to evil characters resorting to taking the initiative in order to have a fair chance.

This goes both ways though. I can say I have seen numerous occasions where the evil character is being taken in to be questioned by the fist when all of a sudden 2-3 of his buddies come running by the FAI hasted with their weapons out. I have had my character "ambushed" by evil characters that have buffed and waited at transitions. These are poor choices for both good and evil characters. It causes paranoid reactions that ruin opportunities to RP and lead to the character being considered a joke.

All characters should be made with a "hidden" requirements on when they fall to either sides of the Good/Evil or Chaotic/Lawful spectrum. Sometimes a certain situation, or series of such, cause so much internal conflict within a character that it changes him fundamentally.

Perhaps he's evil and gone more evil than he thought capable and then tries to redeems himself. Perhaps he's good and finally realises that "the Greater Good" cannot be served without terrible sacrifice. Perhaps a lawman experiences the dark side of the Law and takes up arms against his former friends, Robin Hood-style. Perhaps the freedom fighter settles down with family and realises that he and his family needs stability and order in their life. Just a few examples.

This goes both ways though. I can say I have seen numerous occasions where the evil character is being taken in to be questioned by the fist when all of a sudden 2-3 of his buddies come running by the FAI hasted with their weapons out. I have had my character "ambushed" by evil characters that have buffed and waited at transitions. These are poor choices for both good and evil characters. It causes paranoid reactions that ruin opportunities to RP and lead to the character being considered a joke.

This is where one must employ the RP out and have a legitimate reason to be ambushing anyone. I figure there are two things that are important in PvP on this server based on my experience. One, announcing your intention to fight and giving an out. And two, asking for permission in a tell. If we all try to follow those rules we can have some more interesting events.

Not sure what happened in your situation but I've had the reverse a lot as well. Usually I see them as simple mistakes and players can be reasoned with on these kind of issues. I would also point out for those who don't like to PvP, that a simple IG tell helps a lot as well. Most don't, or should not want to, PvP unwilling participants. It's not fun.