A friendly public service reminder about meta-info.

[mireigi]

On the disguise-meta thing though... I personally also think it's metagaming to know who the person is, but it's also godmodding from the disguised person to assume no one is sharp enough to discover them with just a look.

D: THERE'S NO WAY OUT! Someone's going to godmod or meta, it can't be stopped! D:

That's why we have rules for disguises:

Below are Rules for dealing with Disguises, within our limited mechanical means of the NWN2 Engine. The Rules may change in the future, depending on the length that mechanics can be adjusted, or new Feats and Skills Systems are added.


Wearing the same outfit(s) as your PC would normally do—even with an equipped full-face covering—will only keep your PC's face hidden. This is not being anonymous, and players may attempt to identify you based on all the other visual attributes seen in-character (IC).

• 1. A disguise (persona) is only anonymous in the first encounter.
  
  A Player Character (#1) dressed in a unique outfit and fully masked (full face covering), interacting for the first time in this disguise with any another Player Character (#2), is a complete, impenetrable disguise. The ability to "see through" this disguise on first encounter is only possible via the oversight of a DM, who can require a calculated DC Skill Roll.
  
  
  2. A disguise (persona) becomes recognizable over time, beginning with a second encounter.
  
  PC #1, using the same outfit +/- fully masked, interacting with the same other PC #2, for a second time, is a disguise that has now become recognizable—the disguised PC #1 is creating recognition based on pattern and experience, in-person. Recognizable means a reaction along the lines of "I have seen/met you before ..."
  
  
  3. A disguise (persona) loses anonymity over time, specifically after a third encounter.
  
  Any third and further use of the same unique outfit with full mask by PC #1—and with the same other PC #2—is considered recognizable, identifiable, and is creating familiarity. The "disguised" PC#1 is now a known identity by the same other PC #2. The disguised PC#1 is no longer anonymous, and could be described and identified by PC #2 at that time, and at a later date or described to another. This does not mean PC #2 knows the Name of PC #1—and most definitely does not know the "true" identity of PC #1—or would be able to "see through" a different disguise persona when wearing a different outfit +/- full-face covering, only that PC #2 recognizes and can identify this particular "disguise persona" worn by PC #1.

Creating a pattern of behavior in your Disguise (persona) will generate a well-protected and difficult to penetrate veil, under which a true identity can remain hidden, until your Player Character slips—either intentionally or unintentionally—to reveal themselves to another.


How to Remain Constantly Anonymous:
1. Always wear a different disguise in encounters with the same other PC—new hair, new outfit style, new helmet/mask, etc.
2. In-character-ly, speak a different manner, act differently, attempt to embody a different persona.
3. Do not inhabit, travel or occupy similar places, conversations, circumstances...creating a pattern of activity is the path to recognition, and thus the eventual penetration of the PC's disguise.



What Does This Mean: The above "Rules" separate knowing the true identity of a Player Character versus knowing the disguised persona of a Player Character. As a Player, that means to react to what is presented to your PC as your PC would see it, not from what your Player Mind can perceive in front of the computer screen. Again, beware the context of metagaming outside of what your own Player Character can perceive (this idea of perception is indeed tied to Skills—both natural and magical—however, those perceptions used to pierce a disguise shall and must be overseen by a DM, in all cases (if you want to make an attempt to pierce a disguise, then contact a DM for assistance)).

A basic understanding of Metagaming PC Names: the floating name tag above a PC is a mechanic, thus is not "readable" by another PC in-character. If your PC has not learned the name of another PC through words/communication or writing or observation in-character, to address another PC by name after reading that floating mechanic name-tag, is an instance of metagaming (allowing your PC to know/act something they have not gained in-character).


In general, be gracious to your fellow Players attempt to Role-play a disguised persona, and keep everything In-character to the best of your abilities.

Source: Disguise Rules (Provisional)

[Passiflora]

Which I do not nessesarly agree with, which is why I said "personally" in what you quoted of me.

[gedweyignasia]

Aight guys. Since I don't currently play, this means you can all send your little character's secrets to me instead of other players.

Thank you.

Lucy is going to set the moon on fire and turn it into a second sun.

yw!

Lies. She's going to smash the moon into someone, because she drops mountains like Kanye drops the mic.

[calvinus]

I am by no means immune to meta-infoing people =[. I do it by accident a lot -- mostly with people's names due to my lame instinct to address people by the name over their head, since that is how it works in most games hehe, then retcon that back when I do screw that up. I did this as recently as last night lol!

In a more egregious meta-infoing fashion, I do love hearing about the wheels behind the cogs OOC for really anyone's character -- especially evil ones since I exclusively play a good one and I like hearing about how the other side lives OOC =] in case I ever roll an evil toon. I am often "that person" that is shooting OOC tells or PMs back and forth to evil characters OOC to hear about their evil PC's plans OOC (that Wai Li IC would never know about without meta-info) just because I love hearing about that stuff OOC. I think I have done a decent job so far of keeping this strictly OOC (Sani's character IG is a good example, she was doing awful/evil things IC that she first told me about OOC via tells, but I only found out about them through non-polluted natural IC means way later), but I think the OP makes a good point that this is reckless behavior here, since eventually this could unintentionally or intentionally pollute my RP IC -- especially with evil PCs that interact with goody paladin Wai Li.

I am going to try to quit this nosy OOC practice before it causes damage. If not hearing about evil toons OOC is unbearable for my OOC curiosity how the baddies live though, maybe I will just have to roll an evil character sooner rather than later =].

Some other examples where at least I have for the moment not meta-infoed when the temptation was there (and there was a temptation haha!): Valiant was emoting spying on Wai Li while hidden and iirc Wai Li did not alter her IC behavior and another when I knew OOC that someone had devil formed, but since I never saw them change back, I did not know it was them and treated them normally IC on Wai Li when I saw them later not devil formed. I am not trying to being selective here in examples of me doing this "right", so if I/Wai Li have ever (do ever) meta-infoed in a harmful way, please always let me know and I will correct the inappropriate meta-RP.

[Snarfy]

I'm totally necro'ing this thread because, quite frankly, things are getting silly(again), and I'm seeing a lot of players taking liberties with NPC's and I'm encountering other assorted nonsense lately.

From the server rules:

– No Metagaming!
"Metagaming" is the use of knowledge not lawfully gained by a character in game.
-> Such as but not limited to the following examples:
1. Using the name over someones head as a name tag, until you meet that person in character, you do not know their name.
2. Sending a tell to a friend who was not with you at the time of your death, to come to your location and raise you from the dead.
3. Using information that you learned on character 1, and playing character 2 and using said information not lawfully gained on character 2.
4. Do not use the NWN2 game mechanics to assume things your character would not otherwise know by their skills alone (i.e. saves on an aura, or seeing a spell cast).

In other words, if your characters nemesis walks past your character and you send out tells to your buddys to come to the area just so you can gang-PvP your nemesis, you're breaking the rules. If you run through town with a mask on and have your uber-evil summon beside you, you're breaking the rules. If you hear footsteps while being unable to detect the other character and you react IC'ly, you're breaking the rules. If you IC'ly react to an invisible persons wards without detecting them when they transition in, you're breaking the rules. Did I miss anything?

Meta is lame. Don't do it. Please and thanks.

[PJtheFey]

I'm totally necro'ing this thread because, quite frankly, things are getting silly(again), and I'm seeing a lot of players taking liberties with NPC's and I'm encountering other assorted nonsense lately.

From the server rules:

– No Metagaming!
"Metagaming" is the use of knowledge not lawfully gained by a character in game.
-> Such as but not limited to the following examples:
1. Using the name over someones head as a name tag, until you meet that person in character, you do not know their name.
2. Sending a tell to a friend who was not with you at the time of your death, to come to your location and raise you from the dead.
3. Using information that you learned on character 1, and playing character 2 and using said information not lawfully gained on character 2.
4. Do not use the NWN2 game mechanics to assume things your character would not otherwise know by their skills alone (i.e. saves on an aura, or seeing a spell cast).

In other words, if your characters nemesis walks past your character and you send out tells to your buddys to come to the area just so you can gang-PvP your nemesis, you're breaking the rules. If you run through town with a mask on and have your uber-evil summon beside you, you're breaking the rules. If you hear footsteps while being unable to detect the other character and you react IC'ly, you're breaking the rules. If you IC'ly react to an invisible persons wards without detecting them when they transition in, you're breaking the rules. Did I miss anything?

Meta is lame. Don't do it. Please and thanks.

You forgot about using PC scry to find people you want to kill IC.

[Ghost]

And remember to screenshot and PM the DMs to report any rulebreaking you see.

[thids]

In other words, if your characters nemesis walks past your character and you send out tells to your buddys to come to the area just so you can gang-PvP your nemesis, you're breaking the rules. If you run through town with a mask on and have your uber-evil summon beside you, you're breaking the rules. If you hear footsteps while being unable to detect the other character and you react IC'ly, you're breaking the rules. If you IC'ly react to an invisible persons wards without detecting them when they transition in, you're breaking the rules. Did I miss anything?

Meta is lame. Don't do it. Please and thanks.

Unfortunately the majority of those things can't be proven. Simple metagaming like walking around with a summon inside BG and similar things are easy to prove with a screenshot, but anything beyond that... The offender simply has to play dumb and they are in the clear.

For an example, one of the worst and most hilarious attempts at metagaming I have seen done to my character was two years ago. A character approached him and talked to him about a certain faction. The way this player tried to turn their metainfo into proper IC info was to set their questions to something further along the line of what they knew OOCly, pretending as if everything before that was already known to them IC. If I was not so very sure that their character knew absolutely nothing IC and had my character play dumb, I would have given the person an opportunity to take an IC screenshot that confirms something that they metagamed, turning it into an actual, valid IC information. Well probably not, as my character would have acted the same way regardless. But I bet plenty of other people with different character types "spilled the beans" to this person without even knowing it.


It was just hilarious, do things like this really pass as "smart and manipulative" roleplay to some of the players? Is this how some think intrigue RP should be played out? It's not manipulative, it's embarrassing on the person who does it. I'm sure that if I confronted the person or reported it to the DM team, the player would have played dumb and said "eheheh, my character didn't know anything they were just bluffing!".

I'm more than happy to share information IC that would "hurt" my characters or their interests, but come on, put some work and effort into it instead of looking for shortcuts through metagaming.


That all said, I have not encountered that much metagaming personally. I think majority of the players are fair in that regard, and plenty of those that don't seem fair are probably not even aware that they are metagaming something. I have no issues with sharing some OOC info through tells if I think it helps the interaction between our characters. But there's always a few spoiled apples.

[PJtheFey]

I'm totally necro'ing this thread because, quite frankly, things are getting silly(again), and I'm seeing a lot of players taking liberties with NPC's and I'm encountering other assorted nonsense lately.

From the server rules:

– No Metagaming!
"Metagaming" is the use of knowledge not lawfully gained by a character in game.
-> Such as but not limited to the following examples:
1. Using the name over someones head as a name tag, until you meet that person in character, you do not know their name.
2. Sending a tell to a friend who was not with you at the time of your death, to come to your location and raise you from the dead.
3. Using information that you learned on character 1, and playing character 2 and using said information not lawfully gained on character 2.
4. Do not use the NWN2 game mechanics to assume things your character would not otherwise know by their skills alone (i.e. saves on an aura, or seeing a spell cast).

In other words, if your characters nemesis walks past your character and you send out tells to your buddys to come to the area just so you can gang-PvP your nemesis, you're breaking the rules. If you run through town with a mask on and have your uber-evil summon beside you, you're breaking the rules. If you hear footsteps while being unable to detect the other character and you react IC'ly, you're breaking the rules. If you IC'ly react to an invisible persons wards without detecting them when they transition in, you're breaking the rules. Did I miss anything?

Meta is lame. Don't do it. Please and thanks.

On the footsteps thing, does the table top RPG spell make the person silent as well? As it is, the spell is inVISIBILITY not inAUDIBLE. In that example I think people should be able to react sounds the character makes, or opening and closing doors. If they are so concerned about noise they should be invisible and stealthed.

[Ghost]

On the footsteps thing, does the table top RPG spell make the person silent as well? As it is, the spell is inVISIBILITY not inAUDIBLE. In that example I think people should be able to react sounds the character makes, or opening and closing doors. If they are so concerned about noise they should be invisible and stealthed.

I think Snarfy was referring to hidden characters (as in stealthed), rather than invisible. The game engine still produces the footstep sound effect even if the character hearing it doesn't have the required listen skill to beat the move silently skill.

[Snarfy]

On the footsteps thing, does the table top RPG spell make the person silent as well? As it is, the spell is inVISIBILITY not inAUDIBLE. In that example I think people should be able to react sounds the character makes, or opening and closing doors. If they are so concerned about noise they should be invisible and stealthed.

I think Snarfy was referring to hidden characters (as in stealthed), rather than invisible. The game engine still produces the footstep sound effect even if the character hearing it doesn't have the required listen skill to beat the move silently skill.

What Ghost said

Ironically enough, when a character is invisible and not using stealth the game engine footsteps wont be heard(I think).

And yes, using the scry to track characters down is very meta, especially in the cases of looking for PvP. Some use it to find groups or RP mind you, but turning off your location is usually the safest bet if you're being hounded.

[Xanfyrst]

This is why I have never told anyone about my characters plans, not even the DM team as a whole. Too many possible opportunities to meta game something that would ruin whatever I'm aspiring to accomplish. Plus I enjoy hiding in plain sight, without people realising it's me. So it suits me fine to be a bit paranoid with meta info.

But yes, meta gaming happens frequently. It's mostly innocent stuff but sometimes it could ruin an entire guild. I also find that those playing Evil are more careful with meta gaming others compared to those playing Goodies only. Suppose it's because they themselves appreciate not being meta gamed.

[Deathgrowl]

I also find that those playing Evil are more careful with meta gaming others compared to those playing Goodies only. Suppose it's because they themselves appreciate not being meta gamed.

This is your perspective as a player of usually evil characters. From the other side it's the other way around. As a player of usually good aligned characters, my experience is that evil aligned characters metagame more. But the reason for this in both our cases is that we really only notice metagaming when it happens against us, and that almost always happens from "the other side".

The grass is greener on the other side.

[Xanfyrst]

You forget that Eliphas was right in the middle of Goodie-town for 2 years. The amount of meta gaming I experienced lead me to this conclusion. Not to mention the other characters I have who hasn't been exposed yet. I enjoy being evil among goodies, ya know. Manipulation is my game.

But sure, there's meta gaming going on on both sides that shouldn't happen.

[Mac]

Is this really a problem?

I am pretty open with my RP. Ask about my character OOC I am most likely to give a honest answer. On the other hand I don't like to ruin a surprise, So some things I do keep to myself.

But Meta-Gaming? Simply put I have trusted in my fellow players to keep OOC information OOC! So far no one has EVER let me down.

BTW, Thank you for that BG community