Giant vs Dwarves

[Karond]

Well, the reasoning is not applied to gnomes, hence the "hate". It seems to not be a reactionary change. I mean, dwarves is a great race, the only one I personally play nowadays. Yet this addition is saying dwarves are unbalanced. That somehow they are OP, while in fact they give and take just like the other races.

I don't like this addition because it's not a reactionary one. Sure, if we see that a big part of the server population are dwarves or gnomes that crush everything in PvM, then go ahead. But we've never ever seen that being close to true (nerf elves, they've always been the most popular race ). We do however see certain combinations being very OP without doing anything about it. What gives?

So no, saying "tempest" was nerfed isn't going to to a valid argument (besides, it's a custom class). Dwarves have plenty of drawbacks when it comes to character building, which is why we don't see that many dwarves online even without this knowledge.

[Deathgrowl]

After your recent guide to dwarven defenders, I've seen a huuuuuge increase in dwarves, Karond.

[mireigi]

The big problem isn't that Dwarves get +4 AC vs Giants. It's that the monster diversity on the server is limited, and a lot of the areas have Giant-kin monsters in them. This wouldn't be a problem in PnP, but in a persistent world with hundreds of players, it becomes an issue.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

I hadn't noticed there were more replies in a long time so here goes.

Gnomes also have the "Battletraining vs. Giants: +4ac" feat. The giant races do not have favored enemy gnome. With Breach Gnome out there is very little you can argue for why dwarves are being targeted but gnomes aren't. Dwarves are also restricted from Shadow Dancer so perhaps all creatures should get favored enemy every other race for the spot/listen bonus? HiPSing is essentially godmode when you cannot be seen so how is only being hit on a natural 20 as a tank so game breaking compared to never being hit ever no matter what?

Dwarves have plenty of drawbacks when it comes to character building, which is why we don't see that many dwarves online even without this knowledge.

I have literally seen one powerbuild with dwarves. It is the one Karond posted. There are a few variations of it but all have the same basis. Dwarves are a race that is forced to suffer a useful attribute (CHA, DEX) in exchange for a highly specialized one (CON) is a massive drawback. Ever wonder why you never see a dwarven HiPSter or sorcerer? CON is great if you are a FoF, or a Barbarian. It provides very little benefit if you roll a . . . .
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Favored Soul
Man-at-Arms
Ranger
Paladin
Swashbuckler
Spirit Shaman
Sorcerer
Wizard
Rogue
Warlock
Monk
Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep
Arcane Trickster
Archmage
Anointed Knight
Assassin
Blackguard
Blood Magus
Body Guard
Black Flame Zealot
Cavestalker
Divine Champion
Duelist
Dwarven Defender
Dwarven Battle Rager
Dissonant Chord
Dread Pirate
Dervish
Daggerspell Mage
Dragon Warrior
Dragon Slayer
Divine Seeker
Eldritch Knight
Elemental Archer
Frost Mage
Ghost-faced Killer
Hospitaller
Harper Agent
Hellfire Warlock
Invisible Blade
Morning Lord of Lathander
Order of the Bow Initiate
Palemaster
Sacred Fist
Storm Lord
Silverstar of Selune
Storm Singer
Guild Thief
Shadow Adept
Tempest
Thaumaturge
War Priest
Warrior of Darkness
Weapon Master
Whirling Dervish
Wilderness Stalker

So there is that. Most other races have a subrace with an AB/DC attribute (DEX, STR, INT, WIS/CHA) but CON can only be used for HP, Fortitude, and, with FoF only, AC. There is a reason the QC team talks in terms of damage per round and not HP or DR per round.

I expect some will try to "prove" otherwise but the simple fact of the matter is Dwarves only excel in one thing. They are fun to RP and survivors to the bitter end.

-citizenpyre

[7threalm]

well i think it is an overall server problem, with geting hit and not getting hit, thats why con is usually a dump stat


from a mob position

there is really no counter to 50% concelment, 8 mirror images except mords

there is really no counter to hips, except spotting mobs(script) which i think most of them got removed. (due to player complaints)

there is really no counter to divine damage, magical damage (since monster dr/resistance is broke)

evasion is necessary to survive just about every "boss" battle due all of them have breath weapons (even though it's only suppose to work in light armor)

Elemental immunity- the only other option then evasion


Draco- breath
Green Dragon- breath
Balor- vorpal dc 20 (with the hp it has your gonna roll a 1)
Black Dragon- breath

Frost King, don't require evasion but unless you got alot of hp the spells are going to murder you



dnd is suppose to be about checks and balances but there really isn't to much for the above abilities, that's why 90% of the power builds contain these.

[Thorsson]

This is all basically confirming what I've said several times in these forums:

1. The monsters are all geared a certain way, which OFC means that it pushes characters towards certain Feats/Classes - we need more monster variety, in type, in tactics and in strengths/weaknesses.

2. The powerbuild rules are really a nonsense, because the server makes certain builds into 'powerbuilds'. While Karond's build is a good build, only on BGTSCC is it a powerbuild, due to the rules and monsters here.

If the monsters were changed, as I advocate, then you wouldn't need to make them overpowering against the poor character who doesn't have all the right Feats etc.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Yes I have on Maxwell. I dominated hill, frost, and fire.

[mrm3ntalist]

The problem is that the giants have FE dwarves or that dwarves "suck" in general? or both?

Some numbers/facts.
- The dwarven defender builds are the only melee builds that can solo most of epic bosses with very low use of umd/consumambles. Compared to other races, dwarves get a bonus on CON, an ab bonus against Orcs, a big AC bonus against giants ( the most common enemies). The only disadvantage they get is CHA which is mostly a dump stat for melee builds.
- The dwarves can make very strong STR bards and gishes. Maybe stronger than other races.
- The only builds that dwarves get penalty for are DC sorcerers, DC warlocks and high CHA Bards. That is for Shield dwarves, because there is no penalty on Gold dwarves. All other versions of these classes are on par.
- dwarves are as much able to get all powerful feats (evasion, expose weakness, hips) as every other race.
- Dwarves make the most out of the bugged feat steadfast determination.

So are the dwarves as a race in general weak? No by a longshot.

Is the FE feat that giants get powerful? Some say so, others go further and call it "hate"
Is a +4AC racial bonus a lot on a low magic server? Definitely

So on topic, what are the proposals about this Giant vs dwarves topic?
Just remove the FE dwarves from giants?
Remove the FE but also lower the dwarven racial bonuses?
Just lower the dwarven racial bonuses?

[Karond]

Checked around a bit with dominate monster, and hill giants and fire giants get +6 dmg vs dwarves, while frost giants get +1 dmg. Ogres and trolls doesn't get any extra dmg it seems, of those I checked out.

I would call it "hate" mrm3ntalist. To justify it one would have to show that dwarves are superior to other races or at least show some kind of backstory of dwarven expeditions killing thousands of young giants IG through RP. I think they are on par with the non-ECL races, which is evident in the amount of characters on the server (which clearly favor humans and elves btw). The dwarves have advantages that are very nice, but so do elves, gnomes, halflings and humans.

So the suggestion is simply removing the hatred. Or, as a different approach, give similar hatred to other monster races towards other PC races. Orcs probably hate elves and humans something fierce on this server, for example.

[Theodore01]

So on topic, what are the proposals about this Giant vs dwarves topic?
Just remove the FE dwarves from giants?
Remove the FE but also lower the dwarven racial bonuses?
Just lower the dwarven racial bonuses?

Having played 5 dwarves overall, i didn't notice any problem vs giants - until it was posted here

So it was and is playable and does not need a change at all.
It's probably the best to leave it as it is, as it would mean a considerable amout of time and manpower to change all affected maps and creatures.

This time is better spend adding new content to this great world.

[Relleck]

The problem is that the giants have FE dwarves or that dwarves "suck" in general? or both?

Some numbers/facts.
- The dwarven defender builds are the only melee builds that can solo most of epic bosses with very low use of umd/consumambles. Compared to other races, dwarves get a bonus on CON, an ab bonus against Orcs, a big AC bonus against giants ( the most common enemies). The only disadvantage they get is CHA which is mostly a dump stat for melee builds.
- The dwarves can make very strong STR bards and gishes. Maybe stronger than other races.
- The only builds that dwarves get penalty for are DC sorcerers, DC warlocks and high CHA Bards. That is for Shield dwarves, because there is no penalty on Gold dwarves. All other versions of these classes are on par.
- dwarves are as much able to get all powerful feats (evasion, expose weakness, hips) as every other race.
- Dwarves make the most out of the bugged feat steadfast determination.

So are the dwarves as a race in general weak? No by a longshot.

Is the FE feat that giants get powerful? Some say so, others go further and call it "hate"
Is a +4AC racial bonus a lot on a low magic server? Definitely

So on topic, what are the proposals about this Giant vs dwarves topic?
Just remove the FE dwarves from giants?
Remove the FE but also lower the dwarven racial bonuses?
Just lower the dwarven racial bonuses?

Being the ONLY Melee non-magical build that can apparently do these things should set off some alarms, I agree. But I disagree on what kind of alarm. While the staff's alarm may have alerted them to believing that as an outlier this merits adjusting/nerfing/balancing...I'm seeing it as disparaging that there is indeed only the one...and its being counter-balanced.

More melee should be able to do this - not just Divines / Summoners / Gishes or odd melee-multiclassing to allow for full UMD.


I'd say remove the FE altogether, do not nerf dwarves...and on future content focus less on giant-based enemies so that the intended benefit of being a dwarf doesnt apply to nearly the entire server.

[mrm3ntalist]

I'd say remove the FE altogether, do not nerf dwarves...and on future content focus less on giant-based enemies so that the intended benefit of being a dwarf doesnt apply to nearly the entire server.

No one likes nerfs and i dont think devs like to change content back and forth either. I dont know why the FE Dwarves was given to giants - maybe from all the bashing they got from stout dwarves, making them the giants' favored enemies - but i will be the last to ask them to change it for something that no dwarf player even notices.

There is a scimitar on sale in the ud. It gives +4EB and +1d6 against dwarves. I guess dwarven hate is everywhere

[7threalm]

its fine, i just set my mobs I make to +10 vs outsiders lol , see how long it takes players to figure that one at

My assimar hate is strong

[Zanniej]

This is all basically confirming what I've said several times in these forums:

1. The monsters are all geared a certain way, which OFC means that it pushes characters towards certain Feats/Classes - we need more monster variety, in type, in tactics and in strengths/weaknesses.

...

If the monsters were changed, as I advocate, then you wouldn't need to make them overpowering against the poor character who doesn't have all the right Feats etc.

Being the ONLY Melee non-magical build that can apparently do these things should set off some alarms, I agree. But I disagree on what kind of alarm. While the staff's alarm may have alerted them to believing that as an outlier this merits adjusting/nerfing/balancing...I'm seeing it as disparaging that there is indeed only the one...and its being counter-balanced.

More melee should be able to do this - not just Divines / Summoners / Gishes or odd melee-multiclassing to allow for full UMD.


I'd say remove the FE altogether, do not nerf dwarves...and on future content focus less on giant-based enemies so that the intended benefit of being a dwarf doesnt apply to nearly the entire server.

Both of you have great points, in my opinion. Though it is a different subject, I would like to touch upon it. Right now you see everybody having some sort of magic in his/her toon, since otherwise the build isn't viable enough. I would like to see a pure melee toon being able to handle certain parts of the server quite well, while being murdered in others, and vice versa for casters. That way there would be a bit more "balance" in the strength of certain classes.

To get back to the subject, I do not think dwarves were OP, nor do any actions need to be taken against them. Sure, they've got an advantage against giants, which is only a problem due to the amount of giants in the server (not that I know, I've never been there. But I just hear that a lot). But their advantage is based on lore, so countering that with FE seems odd to me . . . But, surely there will have been a reason to do so, and I'm not sure whether changing it back is worth the effort. Besides, how many of you would've noticed without someone having dominated the giants?

[7threalm]

the problem is fe is i think it multiply on crits to, so 6 dmg becomes 18 dmg on x3 crit

I'm not sure though.

The problem is (magical dmg) and esp (divine dmg) is hard to block on monster mobs, that is why fvs is so popular. esp divine dmg (mutiplys on crit i think). Its a very low cost type of charater to make, with abundent heals, they don't have spend 1000's of gold on heal kits, they don't have to buy spell components etc.

since this is a high magic world, with low enchantment gear, casters will rain supreme hands down. If went to to a high enchament gear, casters become quite irrelevant, really quickly. Fighters types would have better benefits then spells, so you wouldn't see that many caster builds.