Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Two coppers from my side as well Nice to see SoH is being worked on instead of going the way of crafting skills (though I'm sure they will be worked on eventually when important enough).

1) Perhaps going into stealth could reduce your SoH skill somewhat, or SoH might temporarily reduce your stealth skills to make it more "realistic", IF such is warranted; stealth in NWN2 has always (afaik) ignored many environmental factors like nearby dynamic shadows, weather or vegetation, so perhaps SoH affecting stealth is not necessary if there are already so many other factors that also do not affect stealth.

2) The main problem like Steve mentioned probably is the possibility of high-level SoH players griefing low-level players that have no chance at all to spot the attempt. Much like a max-level fighter decapitating a min-level newbie character in one PvP attack; another example of a big level spread between players being a hindrance to otherwise interesting and unpredictable PvP roleplaying. But that is a player problem, not a mechanical one.

3) Automatic hostile toggle of victim/spotters toward thief and thief toward victim/spotters when SoH is detected, as Nihm mentions, is probably a good idea (perhaps until thief leaves the area?). Makes it easier at a glance to react properly as a player when your character or bystanders have spotted the attempt (I wonder how NPC guards react when you attack said thief).

Much of this has been mentioned already, I'm just giving my +1 endorsements on those suggestions above. In general I am all for leaving SoH un-nerfed, as long as it is not used to grief lower-level players.

Blackman D wrote:you must never rolled a toon with PP if you think that means

Many, actually. Too many.

mrm3ntalist wrote:You covered everything nicely Blackman D. Now.... lets talk about... Paladins!

But wait! My "issue" is still not being addressed: that a PC can remain in stealth and pick pockets all day long of lowbies, and never have to be out of stealth unless the SoH fails...which as BMD points out, is very possible with a small bit of observation...or, worse, a few peeks at the SCRY.

As far as I see it, my point still stands: being able to SoH from Stealth allows for LOLZ and stealing coin, but never having to engage in Role-play with the Other. Unless the SoH Spot DC check fails. Which, almost never will. And...if it does, let's hope your toon has also invested in Bluff.

Steve, what you describe is a player isssue, not hips & PP.

A player even without hips can grind for days with never enganging on a roleplay. You can stay hidden for hours, without enganging in roleplay.

My character has stayed hidden for hours ( literally ) in secret meetings, places he shouldnt be and although he didnt actually engaged in any roleplay during that time, much came after it because of it.

What i am trying to say is that in the end, it is up to the player whether he roleplays or not.

A second thing about your issue is that the current changes addressed your concern in some degree. If the lowbies are nearby a good spotter, the PP attempt has better chance to be detected. The more spotters the higher the chance. If the PP attempt is detected then guards can be summoned to "help" the lowbies and not have to deal with them alone.

So, using your words, one can say that the changes actually help RP, since if players have issues with the PP and dont want to invest on spot, it will make them to find good spotters to group with

I believe the changes increase the difficulty to PP and removed any metagame information - the targets spot roll.

mrm3ntalist wrote:...although he didnt actually engaged in any roleplay during that time,

But that's my point. And, it applies to—maybe—why chests de-stealth ninja looters?!? Picking a pocket IS an engagement. Staying in stealth why spying...is another thing (but related, I'll give you that).

mrm3ntalist wrote:If the lowbies are nearby a good spotter, the PP attempt has better chance to be detected. .

I seriously hope that the DC increases with distance, from the point of SoH, outward in concentric circles. Because, honestly...if the new script allows good spotters to passively observe a SoH action...then that is borderline NPC and/or PC mechanical metagaming! And I call foul!

stevebarracuda wrote: But that's my point. And, it applies to—maybe—why chests de-stealth ninja looters?!? Picking a pocket IS an engagement. Staying in stealth why spying...is another thing (but related, I'll give you that).

Players complained about ninja looting, and complained a lot. It became a huge issue and that is why it got changed. When is the last time you heard one complain about a PP. I cant think of one, mainly because what it is about (mechanically ) is 30-70 gold for 2hours at a player, that you can get by killing a lizard. The loss a target of PP suffers is minimal. At least not even close to complain about it.

On the other hand, sometimes in order to play a thief that PPs, you got to be stealthed. I play a thief on and off and so far i always try to PP without being hidden, by RPing a beggar. I had no complaints from the people i PPed and I feel they got to know OOC they got PPed.

Unfortunately, i had issues ( small issues not even worth to complain about ) when players new OOCly they got PPed and iniated a PvP. Or what is more usual, players identifying the character name and asking to stay away because he is a thief, even when the thief has changed the appearance.

There are issues left and right, for certain. Are they worth looking into it? i dont know. The current changes are a step in the right direction. Lets give them some time to work and if something needs changing we can talk about it again.

mf_hansen wrote:3) Automatic hostile toggle of victim/spotters toward thief and thief toward victim/spotters when SoH is detected, as Nihm mentions, is probably a good idea (perhaps until thief leaves the area?). Makes it easier at a glance to react properly as a player when your character or bystanders have spotted the attempt (I wonder how NPC guards react when you attack said thief).

Automatic hostile toggling does not happen anywhere on the server mechanically. I dont know why it should in this case. Does one get automatically hostiled when he murders someone in front of the guards, inside a guild etc? Does a drow on the surface, a paladin in Darkhold or a zhent inside the Radiant Heart gets automaticaly hostiled?

mrm3ntalist wrote:When is the last time you heard one complain about a PP.

*snip*

The current changes are a step in the right direction. Lets give them some time to work and if something needs changing we can talk about it again.

http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=45232

Also: what is the range for the script to "inform" or let nearby NPCs and PCs detect the SoH? I think this is super important to get right, because...we are supposed to be Role-Playing cities like BG with having tens of thousands of inhabitants, and, if my toon Picks another in the public square...what really is the likelihood that a FF waaaaaaaaay over there, would detect it?!?!

In addition: does this NPC / PC detection roll get made through walls/doors, etc?

Oh man, I can't stop: finally, you know, this idea that a toon can stealth all over and pick pockets is about as lame as those that like to speak and taunt other toons from stealth, all done in broad daylight, in public places, within cities, within FF and other guards, etc. Does being in stealth make a toon incorporeal? Such that putting a hand inside a pocket from stealth would not give the receiver some "feeling?"

I just seriously disagree with this:

...sometimes in order to play a thief that PPs, you got to be stealthed.

We don't have a thief class on this server...we have Rogues.

stevebarracuda wrote:http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=45232

That link was supposed to be a complaint? Sorry, but i dont bite it
First the OP thought that PP gets you items, so my understanding is that he is unaware of the PP mechanics.
Second, we impose a mechanic limit on a game action, harshly, because we the players dont invest in a skill to counter PP while in turn we max other skills to gain mechanical advantages.

If a player doesnt want his character PPed make him max spot instead lets say tumble. Asking for a harsh time limit to help with our character mechanics - or lack of - is lame.

stevebarracuda wrote: Also: what is the range for the script to "inform" or let nearby NPCs and PCs detect the SoH? I think this is super important to get right, because...we are supposed to be Role-Playing cities like BG with having tens of thousands of inhabitants, and, if my toon Picks another in the public square...what really is the likelihood that a FF waaaaaaaaay over there, would detect it?!?!

That could not be tested while in development because of no big areas in the testing module. I am certain it will be tested in game shortly

stevebarracuda wrote: In addition: does this NPC / PC detection roll get made through walls/doors, etc?

Oh man, I can't stop: finally, you know, this idea that a toon can stealth all over and pick pockets is about as lame as those that like to speak and taunt other toons from stealth, all done in broad daylight, in public places, within cities, within FF and other guards, etc. Does being in stealth make a toon incorporeal? Such that putting a hand inside a pocket from stealth would not give the receiver some "feeling?"

I just seriously disagree with this:

...sometimes in order to play a thief that PPs, you got to be stealthed.

We don't have a thief class on this server...we have Rogues.

I cant stop either so we might as well talk for ages Or we could go play the game instead of just talking about it

mrm3ntalist wrote:I cant stop either so we might as well talk for ages Or we could go play the game instead of just talking about it

Touché!

However...I'm now gunning for your non-Spot having toons, M3nt. I know you have some!!!

Yes, that is me suggesting I'm going to metagame M3nt's toons...but it's a JOKE, okay?!

stevebarracuda wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote:I cant stop either so we might as well talk for ages Or we could go play the game instead of just talking about it

Touché!

However...I'm now gunning for your non-Spot having toons, M3nt. I know you have some!!!

Yes, that is me suggesting I'm going to metagame M3nt's toons...but it's a JOKE, okay?!

You also know my toons have too much gold so... be my guest

And non spot toos? i think i have two. The rest, you are in for a suprise. Even the dwarf and the FS.

See, i do mind being feinted or PPed

Edit: Ooops, i just checked. there are more than two. Stay away from me you evul thief!

mf_hansen wrote:1) Perhaps going into stealth could reduce your SoH skill somewhat, or SoH might temporarily reduce your stealth skills to make it more "realistic", IF such is warranted; stealth in NWN2 has always (afaik) ignored many environmental factors like nearby dynamic shadows, weather or vegetation, so perhaps SoH affecting stealth is not necessary if there are already so many other factors that also do not affect stealth.

the stealth engine does actually take in a lot of environmental input, tile lighting light/dark affect both hiding and spotting - casting the spell light or any items that give off light -will- give the sneak a negative hide bonus mechanically (i got rid of all my light emitting gear when i found that out on my sneaks), terrain surface hard/soft affect move silently, day/night affect hiding and spotting - darkvision and low light vision negate spot penalties in the dark within the range of your vision, weather, maps that rain affect move silently, even the direction your toon is face affects your bonus to listen to a sneak along with simply not moving

if it did not take in account those different things than sneaks would only need 20 higher to not worry, however i say 20-25 usually because the 20 is the d20 roll and the extra 5 is mechanical bonuses, its possible to net a higher bonus than 5 yea but most the time you are gonna have negating bonuses

for example someone sneaking across grass is gonna have a bonus MS, but someone standing still has a bonus listen - both would just cancel each other and you are back to just your skill rolls - add rain and now the sneak has an advantage - add the fact that the sneak is approaching perpendicular from the listener and now the listener has an extra bonus and the advantage

the stealth/detection engine is more involved than most usually think, thats why any suggestions that affect stealth or detection are usually denied or extremely hard pressed to get support - balance there comes from the things that are more easily controlled like gear, but even then it creates issues with some of the possible combos you can do with builds, but some are simply better than others so gear is usually looked at as isolated instances

mf_hansen wrote:2) The main problem like Steve mentioned probably is the possibility of high-level SoH players griefing low-level players that have no chance at all to spot the attempt. Much like a max-level fighter decapitating a min-level newbie character in one PvP attack; another example of a big level spread between players being a hindrance to otherwise interesting and unpredictable PvP roleplaying. But that is a player problem, not a mechanical one.

yea it is, cant balance players tho
if you could steve would have been fixed patches ago!

mf_hansen wrote:3) Automatic hostile toggle of victim/spotters toward thief and thief toward victim/spotters when SoH is detected, as Nihm mentions, is probably a good idea (perhaps until thief leaves the area?). Makes it easier at a glance to react properly as a player when your character or bystanders have spotted the attempt (I wonder how NPC guards react when you attack said thief).

possibly, however yea the NPCs are an issue, they currently will label who starts the fight as the bad guy if i remember right, there was talk about if people could grief that and bait people into pvp near guards and have the guards kill them, so probably not a change you are gonna see right away if at all with how the NPCs respond

stevebarracuda wrote:that a PC can remain in stealth and pick pockets all day long of lowbies, and never have to be out of stealth unless the SoH fails...

thats hardly an issue, a careful and cautious player isnt gonna recklessly get caught, no reason to try to make something harder for everyone because a few people are good at what they do - they scry tool is a bit irrelevant, it can be used or abused is many ways

mrm3ntalist wrote:removed any metagame information - the targets spot roll

that part would actually be bad - there would be no way to test it when it breaks then (or someone claims/thinks it broke), and last time ive seen it break NPCs with no detection at all were catching PP attempts (a while ago - someone was complaining all their attempts were failing and yea everything was) - being able to see their spot doesnt do a whole lot for you anyway, aside from the few times you might actually PP someone with spot and win only by a few points, would let you know they are probably not a safe mark, but one side needs to see all the info and if you are not the one with SoH it does you no good

stevebarracuda wrote:I seriously hope that the DC increases with distance, from the point of SoH, outward in concentric circles. Because, honestly...if the new script allows good spotters to passively observe a SoH action...then that is borderline NPC and/or PC mechanical metagaming! And I call foul!

i kinda doubt the distance part but yea i think the wall thing is a current issue with it

mrm3ntalist wrote:Players complained about ninja looting, and complained a lot. It became a huge issue and that is why it got changed. When is the last time you heard one complain about a PP. I cant think of one, mainly because what it is about (mechanically ) is 30-70 gold for 2hours at a player, that you can get by killing a lizard. The loss a target of PP suffers is minimal. At least not even close to complain about it.

that mostly bc PP complaint have gone straight to the DMs... they do happen tho which is how the scripts were created in the first place

at first it was about losing high value items to thieves - so it was scripted to only take gold
then it was about people stealing right in someones face repeatedly because SoH only has a 30s cooldown - so then it was restricted to only allow you to take from one target once a reset
that script has been around a while and has been reported being or have thought being broke like three times that i know of that i tested it for, and now you have this new one that will need to be ironed out and will have its share of complaints

Here you have it people. Need advice about PP, Blackman D is the man to talk to.

I will keep the quote below... it is just priceless

Blackman D wrote: yea it is, cant balance players tho
if you could steve would have been fixed patches ago!

mrm3ntalist wrote: I will keep the quote below... it is just priceless

Blackman D wrote: yea it is, cant balance players tho
if you could steve would have been fixed patches ago!

Youz will never balance me!!!!!

I agree that it is a bit cheesy how some players walk down the middle of the road while stealthed with not even a shadow to hide in or a blade of grass to hide behind. Some can argue that using stealth to walk up behind a person, cut a purse and walk away is fine. How players utilize stealth while picking pockets not my point here. I'm just sharing what I've experienced with the new mechanics of this script and possibly get some community ideas on tweaks to make it better. The only relevance it has is whether or not stealth should end when the thief is detected.

Cheesy or not, it is just a fact that players use stealth to approach a victim, from the front, back, side, middle of the road, or the Silver Rose shrubberies. If anyone detects them and wants to bring attention to the thief, I don't see why stealth shouldn't be terminated. It would be like Ivan yelling and pointing (and we all know the druid would do this!) and the victim turning and seeing the thief standing there with his hard-earned coin in hand. I say let the chase begin.

At the moment, I'm getting SoH checks over the DC 20 to be successful against player characters but getting no gold so it seems my picks that are being detected aren't causing my stealth end or I'm not getting gold. I'm going to try and find a spotter to test this some more.

And I've even been picking hostile creatures... from spiders and shambling mounds to bears and treants. I even got 65 gold from this one rich beetle in Cloakwood! Can we get a belt and coin pouch on the skin appearance of all pickable creatures please?

well main issue with stealth is placeables vs environmental objects

our server is massive and placeables take up more resources than environmental objects do, but EOs cast no shadows, do not break line of sight, they dont do anything, which is why they use so little resources, they also fade out so a lot of people dont even see them at certain angles

ive seen a lot of people talking in a convo with someone else and a third guy comes up and asks why one of them is standing in a bush they go unnoticed a lot, but they are there

some areas are bare so it doesnt apply everywhere, but most areas have plenty casting shadows, but thats something thats not going to be altered at all because it affects performance

as far as the pulling out of stealth when called out... idk, id rather it get its current bugs fixed before more fancy things get added

Nihm wrote:At the moment, I'm getting SoH checks over the DC 20 to be successful against player characters but getting no gold so it seems my picks that are being detected aren't causing my stealth end or I'm not getting gold. I'm going to try and find a spotter to test this some more.

that is odd but yea if you do screenies would help, neutral PP and hostile PP