Drow Exile?

[Ithilan]

People should have a greater chance of seeing a Unicorn than a surface drow

Im not opposed to the concept at all, nor that of "true" drow elves faithful to Lloth going on raids top side. But these type of characters are and ought to be 99,9% roleplay motivated and that creates a slight issue when someone is bored and just wants to kill orcs for an hours time before cooking dinner

What I think is far more motivational is having an Eilistraeen drow with the ambition of escaping the confines of drow society, only to find that all the prejudice she was running from is directed at her from every person she would meett.
Sure a drow surfacer could survive rather well, she probably met far worse things on a journey top side than what the deep woods have to throw at her.
But most people would avoid her entirely or be frightened and do anything to avert her attention from them, the common people are superstitious and if they had not heard of "dark elves", "drow" or what not, they would probably run in fear.

Thats where we encounter an issue, because noone is playing a commoner and theres an abundance of righteous knights, arcane scholars, hardy woodsmen and other wise heroic types that would react with extreme hostility and prejudice towards her, 9½ times out of 10.
And hiding in the "deep woods" is confined to a square area or two on a module in a game simply due to mechanics, there would be so many factors to making such a character I think it would be unenjoyable at best without a DM sponsor to catter to the roleplaying purpose on a regular basis.

I preffer the RP development of a character who grows in strength while in the Underdark and in the end making the journey and exiling her/him-self from the community bellow.. with the uncertainty of whats to come.

[freekender]

In the end it just has to be done very well and with very strict rules, otherwise the setting might quickly become neglected.

That sumarizes the hole issue in a sentence. The problem here is that all we have ideas, and they don't match 100% with what another player, maybe at 95%. I think it's obvious that the idea of surface drows is supported by a (do not know how musch) large number of players, but someone has to take the initiative of gather them. And for me that should be the staff. And I know you have a thousand things going on, but...

(Just like a sugestion, maybe a poll could be done?)

[Ithilan]

Well one thing is liking the concept, it is something else entirely how it would work out in practise. Theoretically it sounds awesome, but when we have 5-6 players running around the surface I think ill come to regret condoning it.

It is such an exceptional case that it just cant be made "common" in my opinion and anything more than 1-2 players doing this would put it in that category nearly, if you're talking about a whole guild then even more so. In scale such a handful of players could easilly represent 10% of the online players at given times and that to me would be highly unusual in a FR setting.

Surface drows are solitary and seclusive, theres the exception of Drizzt but noone should be playing a Drizzt type of character if you ask me. Everyone wants to be exceptional in these games usually and that can get a bit to extreme.

Id have huge admiration and respect for someone who clawed they way out of the Underdark and managed to eventually (this is a very heavy RP requirement) found acceptance with a niche of surfacers, offering her/him some manner of sanctuary in a world that is void of sympathy for him/her.

But neglecting the isolation from the Underdark community and simply making a surface drow at level 1, is not something id want to see.

[chad878262]

Something like this is going to be very difficult to pull off in a cooperative rp environment without hurt feelings. Most elves (and I know my main char) would take Dow kos very seriously. Shevarash demands the death of ALL Drow and to a lesser extent this is supported by Fenarel (sp?) And Hoar. During our time period in game Drizzt was still an anomaly and Drow settlements on the surface were unheard of and (I imagine) would not be tolerated.

It's easy to forget that we are still in 2nd edition timeline wise when Drow, Orcs and even half orcs were all "monster races". I would honestly be disappointed to see any Drow getting to a point where they are accepted as a group around the FAI. Although generally this is acceptable for orcs based on in game player reaction so I suppose if Drow are allowed to live on the surface it will eventually lead to no in game penalties for doing so and certainly very few realistic player reactions.

[DM_Absolution]

Thats where we encounter an issue, because noone is playing a commoner and theres an abundance of righteous knights, arcane scholars, hardy woodsmen and other wise heroic types that would react with extreme hostility and prejudice towards her, 9½ times out of 10.

I would seriously question it if someone just attacked a drow like that, based on observation. Many good aligned characters would not jump to conclusions, some would, but not that many. If they are not familiar with what a drow -is- then they have no reason to suspect they are evil. If they do know and are good aligned as well, then it varies, some would attack while some would first find out if they are hostile.

And hiding in the "deep woods" is confined to a square area or two on a module in a game simply due to mechanics, there would be so many factors to making such a character I think it would be unenjoyable at best without a DM sponsor to catter to the roleplaying purpose on a regular basis.

I agree to this, there are too few areas where they could hide properly. There would be plenty of characters running past them every so often, and this could cause problems. I do believe this would have to handled by a DM, to keep it controlled.

[Ithilan]

Thats where we encounter an issue, because noone is playing a commoner and theres an abundance of righteous knights, arcane scholars, hardy woodsmen and other wise heroic types that would react with extreme hostility and prejudice towards her, 9½ times out of 10.

I would seriously question it if someone just attacked a drow like that, based on observation. Many good aligned characters would not jump to conclusions, some would, but not that many. If they are not familiar with what a drow -is- then they have no reason to suspect they are evil. If they do know and are good aligned as well, then it varies, some would attack while some would first find out if they are hostile.

Yes, you are right, I would question it too. But none the less they are entitled to attack her without any reasons but prejudice and hatred.

I attacked a drow on the Nashkel road a few days ago on my paladin, but the PvP part of the encounter was a 2 minute process of an hours worth of RP and I would preffer that any day. But the current rules state that drows are/can be KoS and one thing is being a knight or faithful with X diety, living a life following a doctrine and established rules for code of conduct and honor.

It is something entirely different for every character and there's a hundred and ten types I can think of that wouldnt think, but act! Why would I differ in my reaction to a drow in Durlags tower and one on the road outside? Thats using OOC knowledge in all honesty and though id encourage it to that very limited scale of not being a PvP junkie im not sure thats actually good role play, if you know what I mean

[chad878262]

It's just funny that Tieflings, half-orcs and even grey orcs run about the surface with no one rp'ing the slightest hostility, but they'll pvp a Drow with no rp. If they are so hostile toward Drow shouldn't they be racist toward the other evil races? The majority of my pc's rp some form of racism toward tieflings and orcs, but for the most part players seem to ignore race in rp, unfortunately.

That said while it makes sense for the paladin to rp and avoid hostility until the end of a long rp session it's equally valid for a ranger/druid/stealth our invisible pc to kos with no verbal rp/warning. Why give the"evil Drow" the chance to cast their foul magic at you? Much better to use the element of surprise!

[ctothep]

Thats where we encounter an issue, because noone is playing a commoner and theres an abundance of righteous knights, arcane scholars, hardy woodsmen and other wise heroic types that would react with extreme hostility and prejudice towards her, 9½ times out of 10.

I would seriously question it if someone just attacked a drow like that, based on observation. Many good aligned characters would not jump to conclusions, some would, but not that many. If they are not familiar with what a drow -is- then they have no reason to suspect they are evil. If they do know and are good aligned as well, then it varies, some would attack while some would first find out if they are hostile.

And hiding in the "deep woods" is confined to a square area or two on a module in a game simply due to mechanics, there would be so many factors to making such a character I think it would be unenjoyable at best without a DM sponsor to catter to the roleplaying purpose on a regular basis.

I agree to this, there are too few areas where they could hide properly. There would be plenty of characters running past them every so often, and this could cause problems. I do believe this would have to handled by a DM, to keep it controlled.

I'd say many many people have heard of drow before and know very well how evil they are, even though 99% probably never seen one with their own eyes.

It's kind of like the devil in this tale parents tell to their kids...

"The drow, dark skinned elves living in the realms below, with blood red eyes and a mind so twisted they would eat babies alive." ... anyways...

A long time ago i used to play a drow on a NWN1 PW who was a sargtlin of a lolth house. His house was destroyed by another PC run house and he was the only one who somehow managed to survive. Once the other house found out they hunted him down and forced him to leave to the surface. He was living mainly on the surface from then on, became "friends" with another eilistraee drow who started there from the very beginning. (he later almost killed her although i dont remember why, there probably wasnt really a reason lol... perhaps he was bored)

Anyways, the point is, it became very very boring to play him after a while because there simply werent enough people he was able to rp with. Beside this other Eilistraee drow pretty much everyone else was hostile the moment they saw him. Entering cities or anything was not an option aswell so it pretty much came down to solo hunting deers in some forest for an hour, then logging off.

What i want to say is, running such a char can be very lonely since they are surrounded by hostility pretty much everywhere they go (or lets say they -should- be). It makes people get bored because not enough rp, boredom makes people do things their char wouldnt do so they can have some rp...

Edit: I should add though that this PW did not nearly have the player base of BGTSCC. Perhaps it is different here since there are simply more options (a cult of vhaeraun could probably ally with the zhents for example).

[Israe]

Thats where we encounter an issue, because noone is playing a commoner and theres an abundance of righteous knights, arcane scholars, hardy woodsmen and other wise heroic types that would react with extreme hostility and prejudice towards her, 9½ times out of 10.
And hiding in the "deep woods" is confined to a square area or two on a module in a game simply due to mechanics, there would be so many factors to making such a character I think it would be unenjoyable at best without a DM sponsor to catter to the roleplaying purpose on a regular basis.

Speaking from experience, you will get meta'gamed. And without a DM Sponsor it is not very likely you won't get killed at every turn. I think I'm one of the few PC's who had a surface drow, and it was entirely out of my hands as it was part of a larger DM Event. From the three of us that were part of it, two ended up permenantly killed. I was very close quite a few times, and the restrictions of where you can go/what you can do. It took me over 3 years to make lvl 30, but fortunately I can return to UD now. And by NO MEANS am I a "Good" drow like Drizzt. Most good drow will end up on their knees with an arrow through their head, my character hangs around many of the darkest PC's on this server or evil do'ers, and had a ton of hard to deal with RP with it. However, I will say it's not impossible, but I would advise building your network in the Underdark first, playing a traditional drow and let your character progress, and if that is the case and the opportunity presents itself, you may get to the surface at some point.

[Ithilan]

Speaking from experience, you will get meta'gamed. And without a DM Sponsor it is not very likely you won't get killed at every turn. I think I'm one of the few PC's who had a surface drow, and it was entirely out of my hands as it was part of a larger DM Event. From the three of us that were part of it, two ended up permenantly killed. I was very close quite a few times, and the restrictions of where you can go/what you can do. It took me over 3 years to make lvl 30, but fortunately I can return to UD now. And by NO MEANS am I a "Good" drow like Drizzt. Most good drow will end up on their knees with an arrow through their head, my character hangs around many of the darkest PC's on this server or evil do'ers, and had a ton of hard to deal with RP with it. However, I will say it's not impossible, but I would advise building your network in the Underdark first, playing a traditional drow and let your character progress, and if that is the case and the opportunity presents itself, you may get to the surface at some point.

Well this is exactly what I was getting at. A long process of character development and roleplaying that leads to an eventual exile from the Underdark, is the accurate way to play and portray a "surface dwelling drow". No matter if youre good or evil alligned, religious or not. And that is something I think all the roleplayers here would understand and nod approvingly at.

But creating a drow on the surface or for the purpose of roaming the surface has so many issues attached to it I dont even know where to begin. And some people might chose alternatively to our encounter a few days ago Israe and just butcher you instead of initiating the PvP through dialouge first. And though people might frown at that, its totally legitimate to act without remorse or mercy towards a drow elf. Especially if you're playing a regular elf.

Then theres the whole aspect of leveling and other mechanics of the actual game as mentioned above, area sizes and other limitations that would hinder a lot of the intended fun with such a character design, in absence of DM sponsorship.

All in all it seems to me as a brilliant concept and idea, but there are many uncertain factors to it and a very long process prior to even be exiled. And I can imagine theres a whole lot of complicated social interactions, not everyone is a good sport about PvP and not everyone has the same opinion about how things ought to be done.

That touches on some of the elements discussed previously, such as racial prejudice and other negative emotions that most people in real life associate with evil and it is a sensitive line to some. Racism is generally frowned upon and associates most people's thought patterns with evil acts and there for they are reluctuant to roleplay such attributes for their characters. Or might react strongly when faced with it though I hope most people can discern role playing from the real world. The way I see it, most people would in a realistic scenario act with prejudice and hostility towards any drow, if not its because you're either englightened beyond the average Faerun citizen or simply because you are passively using OOC knowledge to interact with the player.

But its of course an individual scenario and choice, such as mine was with you Israe and a HIPS surface elf would not have chosen the stance I did if they were say a follower of Shevarash.

[chad878262]

Very well said.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Drizzt spent ten+ years roaming the underdark after becoming an exile before he emerged on the surface. From that point it took years longer before he found a (very sparsely populated) place where he had a few friends that trusted him and a populace that mostly tolerated him. However, the area which our server takes place in is heavily populated and, while Drizzt was able to defend himself from pretty much anyone that attacked him the chances of any pc being able to do the same are slim. Drizzt was constantly suffering attacks from individuals and groups that saw him as a Drow elf, but none of his attackers had access to horrid wilting, implosion, expose weakness or supreme power attack, etc...

So the issue as I see it is while Drizzt was able to survive long enough to prove he was no threat simple fact is even at level 30 someone is going to kill you. This is not to dissuade anyone from the path, just to say it took Drizzt 20 or more years to truly find acceptance among a decent populace so it would take extreme patience, thick skin and willingness to "lose" in a lot of rp situations.

All this said it would be neat once/if disguises are implemented to see Drow (good or evil) attempting to make a place above ground using that system. Eventually some will see through the disguise, but maybe you build a few friendships along the way.

[maulofthetitans55]

Do we really need to water down Drow RP anymore then it already is on a PG-13 server?

Meeting a Drow on the surface for any reason is quite rare.
Meeting a Drow on the surface that isn't Chaotic Evil is very rare
Meeting a Drow on the surface that isn't raiding in a group is extremely rare
Meeting a Drow on the surface that is actually good aligned and Eilistraeen is virtually unheard of

Please don't ruin the lore that's already hanging by a thread by pretending groups of Drow, living out their lives on the surface, is anything but an extremely rare occurrence. I promise once the DM's open pandora's box by allowing a full time surface Drow guild it will flood with players that want to be the strongest race but don't want the repercussions of Underdark solitude. Not to mention hurting the Underdark player population even more, which is the last thing they need.

[Lag]

I don't understand the surface drow idea. I can see being interested in the drow culture. I don't understand the draw of playing a character with a wealth of flavor and intrigue available to you then going to the surface and losing 90% of what makes you interesting.

To me the whole draw of being a drow is making your way in an intrinsically hostile environment. Then there's the little things like mannerisms and even using bits of an otherwise alien language in your rp.

Why would you give that up? Do you think anyone on the surface is going to appreciate your subtle and not so subtle phrase dropping?

What is it that I'm missing? Is it the evil allure? Or the chance at a redemption story? Both of those I understand but what makes trying for those concepts worth it if everyone on the surface is predisposed to making your life miserable? Even before adding layers of redemption and poorly veiled angst, it doesn't seem very enjoyable to me.

Another thing, why is it that some people feel the need to be this particular brand of character? And what's the point of being an evil drow living on the surface of you're not going for the whole redemption angle? Can you not pull off evil convincingly enough that you don't need an inherently nightmarish race to get ones point across?

[DM_Absolution]

Ok i just erased a massive post i wrote, simply because i think i was derailing the topic.
I will just quickly give my opinion on why some drow wish for change, whether it be allowing them to have a surface guild or anything that can spark controversy.

1) UD lacks RP hubs, and this hinders RP
2) UD is too small, it needs to expand. (Size wise)
3) Eilistraeens and followers of Vhaeraun are slightly inhibited because they cannot fully follow what the Dogma of these gods states. (Short version)
4) The rules about going to the surface are too strict (Surface raids pretty much needs DM oversight to be allowed, otherwise it will cause problems)
5) UD generally needs more DM attention, especially towards allowing the aforementioned.

What i have stated here are just my very subjective opinions based on my own experience playing, and DM'ing in the UD.

I might already be derailing slightly with this post, but it seems this boils down to some core problems.

Absolution

[freekender]

1) UD lacks RP hubs, and this hinders RP
2) UD is too small, it needs to expand. (Size wise)
3) Eilistraeens and followers of Vhaeraun are slightly inhibited because they cannot fully follow what the Dogma of these gods states. (Short version)
4) The rules about going to the surface are too strict (Surface raids pretty much needs DM oversight to be allowed, otherwise it will cause problems)
5) UD generally needs more DM attention, especially towards allowing the aforementioned.

Totally agree.