Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

chad878262 wrote:Most melee classes have poor will saves. UMD is highly recommended for things like protection from evil, death ward, etc... You can live without it, but it's not recommended. My main doesn't have it and it causes no end of frustration for me.

Thanks for the tip. I have 16 unmodified UMD with my current build, is that enough to cast said spells?

Hawke wrote:Something isn't right... as a pure ranger, you get +10 to will saves... then you need at least 14 wisdom (unless you bypassing things with a +wis item) which would give you +2 more Wisdom.

So minimum Willpower save will be 12. If you do spellcrafting, you can +3 (crossclass skill) to your saves against spells. So that is a +15. If you didn't bypass your way to 14, then you can add +2 to your save with Spell/item so that puts you at a grand total of 17 Willpower save against spells.

Not sure what module you were using... or how high in level you got to. (We go to 30 here).

Stick with nwn2db.com it's a great tool for planning, then you can use Jegs module to proof the test.

I did level to 30, but I wasn't using any items or spells. I started with 11 wisdom as was suggested in an earlier post. I also chose the militia background which gives -2 will saves. Do you think it would be a good idea to change my background because of this? Also, I believe Jegs module was the one I used.

EDIT: I'm also starting to wonder whether or not Cleave is worth taking?

UMD 16 will let you use any wands, but not sure how successful you'll be with scrolls (as I said, my main pc doesn't have umd). Someone else can probably give you a breakdown as to what level scrolls you would be able to cast consistently.

Generally I would avoid taking a background that includes -2 to any save unless there was a very good reason for it. However, all character building is an exercise in understanding your character concept both mechanically and from an rp standpoint. In order to get something, be it a feat, skill, ability or bonus, by definition you have to give up the potential to take something else. You just need to ask if what you are getting is worth what you gave up. Taking a background that gives-2 will is absolutely acceptable if it fits your rp concept. Just understand why you are doing so and be willing to live with the downside it brings.

I probably would not take power attack or cleave on any twf build unless it was required for BG or something. PA is really for builds that focus on two handed weapons to gain the benefit of 1.5 STR and double PA/IPA damage. When you are getting PA anyway and have extra feats cleave is worth it. If you are building your ranger this way you are kind of wasting all the free twf feats or archery feats. Favored PA helps, but only against one racial type so not really worth it unless you really want it for rp reasons... even then I would skip cleave in favour of all the feats I listed in an earlier post.

I have to say a lot of this conjecture could be avoided if you give us a link to your build from nwn2db... A lot more people would respond with advice and constructive criticism if they could see the build.

UMD reqs:

Emulate an Alignment: Minimum DC10

Emulate a Class: Minimum DC13

Use a Scroll: Lvl 1(DC13), Lvl 2(DC15), Lvl 3(DC17), Lvl 4(DC19), Lvl 5(DC21), Lvl 6(DC23), Lvl 7(DC25), Lvl 8(DC27), Lvl 9(DC29)

Use a Wand: DC10

Use a Rod: DC12

Also, scrolls with higher than minimum possible caster level have increased DC.

Thanks again for the comments. I was positively surprised that nwn2db was so easy to use. I now made the build and it can be found here. Some notes below:

I changed the background to Farmer, and I haven't actually decided which diety to go for yet. I believe Tumble isn't actually a ranger class skill, so the final number will in fact be 16 and not 32, right? The skillpoints in Spot and Diplomacy are extra, and I was thinking I would distribute them across the rest of my ranger skills, just to have at least a few points in hide and move silently as well (it just feels like it would make more sense). According to the character builder I get a feat at level 24 (Ranger level 20), but I didn't take it because I don't think that I will actually get a feat there? I was planning to take Extend Spell before Protective ward, but I had to change it up in the builder because it gives protective ward to me for free otherwise. One feat that I'm the uncertain about is Improved Combat Expertise, because it gives such a big attack penalty. I'm also not sure if Knockdown is a good idea since I already get it from my Wolf. Any thoughts?

Oh and as for UMD, are those the requirements with modified values? So if for instance I have UMD 16 on my character and I get 4 more from items, would I be able to use a level 4 spell scroll?

Steve, the UMD scroll usage you listed does not actually reflect the DC of said scroll spellcasting. Those UMD scores represent the requisite amount to 'unlock', as it were, that particular level of scroll spellcasting, but that far from guarantees success.

The UMD DC to cast a spell from a scroll is 25 + spell level. So a 4th level scroll is d20 + UMD score vs DC 29. With 16+4 ranks in it, thats only a 60% chance of success. Given the way the RNG tends to roll lower more than higher, that is gunna result in a fair few burnt scrolls!

Wands are the way to go if you can find a PC crafter to make what you're looking for, because as soon as you meet the UMD 10 DC requirement, you can use any wand there is!

Also, if you're playing a ranger there are some spells that simply do not require UMD checks as they are usable by the ranger class itself. Keep an eye out for these in shops and loot.

Oh, and the 'feat' you saw at level 24 (ranger 20) is your 5th favoured enemy. Those feats pop up at level 1, 5 and every 5 levels thereafter for the class.

You have to make the build public before a link will work. Right now only you can see it. Once public others can look and comment. Some advice from your post:

- Kaedrin gives basically all melee classes tumble, bg does not. I in order to still be able to select custom feats in your build select some other non-class skill (such as appraise) and put any points you plan to put in tumble on that skill. Just make sure it's a skill you don't plan on adding any points in to avoid confusion

- you want to stop tumble at exactly 10. You gain no benefit going to 16 so save the 12 points for something else.

- for umd you roll d20 + your skill modifier so on your example if you have 16 +4 (from items) you will always succeed on dc 21 or less, but dc 31 you will have about 50% success rate.

- max hide and move silently. You're a ranger, you get hips out doors, might as well benefit from it. You don't have to be a "focused sneaker" but any woodsman/Hunter should probably be pretty darn capable of stealth. Plus there is benefit to being able to scout in a pinch.

- spot is a key skill especially in pvp. You should max it.

- ICE is debatable as the extra 3 ac over CE might come in handy and with your umd you can use various scrolls (gr heroism for instance) along with ranger spells such as aid to offset the attack penalty. I would have to see your build but I would probably go with TW defense for constant +1 over ice.

- more to come once I can look at your build.

Tsidkenu wrote:Steve, the UMD scroll usage you listed does not actually reflect the DC of said scroll spellcasting.

This I know.

However, Teaboar asked: "...enough [UMD] to cast said spells?"

If anyone is planning on having a toon rely on UMD spell casting and is asking how much do I need, then the answer is, actually, always the same: "As much as you possibly can."

Okay the build should now be public. Keep in mind that I did not change the skills yet, this is what I went with originally. That being said I would like to point out that I have no interest what so ever in pvp. If I ever get into a pvp situation with this character I'm willing to accept that it's a certain death, because I haven't even tried to optimize it around that. My reasoning for avoiding stealth was mainly the fact that I have no sneak attack what so ever, and I'm not looking to benefit of stealth in combat. Still, I might have to re-consider.

EDIT: Oh and regarding Tumble, I though it also protects against attacks of opportunity?

I don't think knockdown will do much for you as your strength isn't that high and you don't have improved knockdown. Can you take two great strengths instead of epic toughness? I thought great strength was a fighter bonus feat and I think the +1 AB/damage would be better than 60 hp. I would either replace ICE with improved knockdown or keep ICE and replace knockdown with something else.

PvP is not always about fighting, is about rp. Rangers are pretty good spotters naturally so having spot and listen maxed can be beneficial. Even without sneak attack you gain bonuses to all your attack rolls in your first flurry out of stealth (since opponent is flat footed). Plus from an rp perspective it's hard to think about a ranger with no skill in hide/move silently.

In regards to flavor it looks like the fighter levels are basically there for AB and damage. You could consider the benefits of some of our custom PRC's such as anointed knight, Dragon slayer, Dragon warrior, etc. Not sure if any will be right for what you have in mind, but something to consider at least.

Hmm, you make a good point regarding stealth. Then again I will have to leave out some ranger skills in any case (or leave them at a low level at least). Unfortunately I can't take Great Strength*2, otherwise I would have done so. I'm considering lowering some other attributes to get Strength to 15 and then get 1*Great Strength so that I finish with 23 strength. Also, any comments regarding tumble protecting from attacks of opportunity? How high does my tumble need to be in order to get immune to them? Oh and by the way, why is it that classes like Dragon Slayer and Dragon Warrior can be found on the wiki but not in the new classes thread? I thought they had been removed.

EDIT: There are so many classes that I didn't know of. It sure opens up a lot more possibilities.

Mixing Ranger with Fighter is a bad idea. You sacrifice too much for a couple of AB points that are not needed. A ranger30 would be much better mechanically and more versatile.

mrm3ntalist wrote:Mixing Ranger with Fighter is a bad idea. You sacrifice too much for a couple of AB points that are not needed. A ranger30 would be much better mechanically and more versatile.

Thank you for the feedback. Now that I found the full class list I might have to consider a completely new build. I appreciate the reply, it's a good thing I didn't get started on the biography yet.

Regarding tumble, per wiki:

Check: Tumbling past opponents without prompting an attack of opportunity is a check against DC of 15. This makes a character with a modified tumble skill of 14+ immune to attacks of opportunity from moving.

10 + 3 (DEX) + 2 (cats grace) = 15. I don't know what the armor check penalty is for Mithral breastplate but it's -1 for studded leather. In other words you should be fine leaving it at 10.

If you are cool rethinking your concept, M3nt is correct that pure ranger is tough to mess with, but if you want something a bit different what about ranger 22 / whirling dervish 3/tempest 5? Have to take dodge and mobility for WD, but you get spring attack for free at WD 3, you gain quite a bit of ac (2 from tempest, another 2 tumble as class skill) you also gain 3 skill focus feats. Is it worth losing 2 favored enemies and 3 epic feats? Maybe not, but honestly my point is just that there are a lot of options and while not optimum if you find a mix that fits your concept there is probably a way to make it mechanically viable.

Okay, so I changed the build completely. Does it look any better now?

EDIT: I'm not sure what to do with 33 skill points so I dumped them into Survival.

Teaboar wrote:Okay, so I changed the build completely. Does it look any better now?

EDIT: I'm not sure what to do with 33 skill points so I dumped them into Survival.

Why bard? What you want to get out of it?