Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

How ingame one would present skill stat, not roll, w/o dm?

The only way, I feel, is players being ooc cooperative.

I agree PnP rules with Skill vs HD+wis+fear are most times inapplicable because its comparatively easy to take a skill very high (70+) mechanically even on nice fluffy gnome, leading to situation where it would take 30 lvl druid with owls insight cast on and in dragon shape to stand at least smallest chance against such gnome:

30hd+say15wis mod+size dif mod12(gnomes are size 2, dragons are size 5 on BGTSCC)=57 vs 70 ~ 70% chance dragon would be scared of such gnome, even if gnome don't roll at all

Should situation where using social skill may lead to interesting rp present itself, then before any rolls, send a tell and agree on how you would both accept it. I like the idea when different characters could use different ways to counter it. Rogue may bluff out her way - say, bravade even when scared as hell. Fighter may use his own intimidate, or taunt. Bard may use diplomacy to talk his way or convince other party just not to scare people. All that would be skills and that implies some balance.

If we should have some universal formula applicable to BG, I believe OQ team would be ones who can make it, cause rolls in NWN2 are, contrary to PnP, game mechanics, and not RP thing, and they know how to make mechanic things work.

I would Love it to include HD + some skill or save, but it's mechanically complicated, so I would propose, in first edition, something along these lines:

Social_Skill_Check
+ Size Mod vs
[Defender choose from]:
Same_or_Counter_Social_Skill_Check
Will Save(represent actually, willpower of the individual) * 2 or
Ability_Mod_Check(Any, which gives party confidence, as last resort, closest representation of HD) * 4
+Size Mod

RPed accordingly.

Hoihe wrote:Once more...


Intimidate STAT (not roll) vs Hit dice (character level in our case) + 1d20 + wis + fear mod.

So, to intimidate a level 30 dude, you need 31 base intimidate.

It's actually an opposed roll, so it would be (1d20 + Intimidate) vs (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target's Wisdom bonus [if any] + target's modifiers on saves against fear)

A skill check always has a 1d20 attached to it. "To make a skill check, roll 1d20 and add your character’s skill modifier for that skill." (Page 63 of Player's Handbook)

Interesting. Does the same work for taunt?

Truthiness wrote:

Hoihe wrote:Once more...


Intimidate STAT (not roll) vs Hit dice (character level in our case) + 1d20 + wis + fear mod.

So, to intimidate a level 30 dude, you need 31 base intimidate.

It's actually an opposed roll, so it would be (1d20 + Intimidate) vs (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target's Wisdom bonus [if any] + target's modifiers on saves against fear)

A skill check always has a 1d20 attached to it. "To make a skill check, roll 1d20 and add your character’s skill modifier for that skill." (Page 63 of Player's Handbook)

Gotcha, so a guy with 11 intimidate has a very tiny chance of intimidating a level 30 then!

99.75% of the level 30 saving, to be exact.

I always hated this skill. Everyone thinks it works differently, which has led to it being mostly ignored and rightfully so.

Some people use it and expect you to run away screaming. Others try to use it as mind control, expecting the player to hand over their first born in sheer terror. Even worse is when a player get frustrated it does nothing assuming you're a bad RP'er when they don't realize the character is just immune to shaken/fear.

It is just conversation influence or demoralization. An elf intimidating a hostile orc might lead to the orc attacking with less confidence, not walking away in panic. "Shaken" is a very minor effect, take that into account whenever you attempt Intimidation. Even in the 3rd edition epic handbook Intimidation doesn't have an epic use. That means if you roll a DC 80 Intimidation and your opponent is still just Shaken.

grunts wrote:I always hated this skill. Everyone thinks it works differently, which has led to it being mostly ignored and rightfully so.

Some people use it and expect you to run away screaming. Others try to use it as mind control, expecting the player to hand over their first born in sheer terror. Even worse is when a player get frustrated it does nothing assuming you're a bad RP'er when they don't realize the character is just immune to shaken/fear.

It is just conversation influence or demoralization. An elf intimidating a hostile orc might lead to the orc attacking with less confidence, not walking away in panic. "Shaken" is a very minor effect, take that into account whenever you attempt Intimidation. Even in the 3rd edition epic handbook Intimidation doesn't have an epic use. That means if you roll a DC 80 Intimidation and your opponent is still just Shaken.

+1. I loathe the way conversation skill rolls tend to be used by players. Especially so when intimidate is rolled without any emote to accompany it. Imho, bluff, dimplomacy, and intimidate rolls should be used to accentuate roleplay or emotes, not to replace roleplay or emotes. And they should never be used with the expectation that they should godmod another PC into a particular reaction.

There is no need to make a fuss about this, the rules of the server are quite clear, no? If you don't want to roll and respect someone's rolls, it's simple, you don't have to. While "Roll" playing can be fun from time to time, social skill rolls between players are a recipe for disaster unless the people have a mutual understanding.

So in a summery, the skill (diplomacy and bluff included) is best used to influence other characters actions or opinions, but not in unconscionable way i.e give me all your gold or die type of lines. Any kind of fear immunity gives immunity to be intimidated aswell.

Pnp DnD rules for counter-rolling seem overly complex to be used in-game. Especially since you cant expect everyone to know them (i.e myself). Best thing for someone like myself who does like the skill use time to time is to let the player know I'm considering using this skill and that it is ok by him. Let him know he can counter it with a related counter roll he likes (In intimidate case be it will save, opposite intimidate skillroll, or pnp dnd rules for the roll etc of his choosing.), or simply ignore it completely.

Pnp DnD rules for counter-rolling seem overly complex to be used in-game. Especially since you cant expect everyone to know them (i.e myself). Best thing for someone like myself who does like the skill use time to time is to let the player know I'm considering using this skill and that it is ok by him. Let him know he can counter it with a related counter roll he likes (In intimidate case be it will save, opposite intimidate skillroll, or pnp dnd rules for the roll etc of his choosing.), or simply ignore it completely.

Don't do that please. Nothing ruins the moment like getting an ooc message asking if you can please intimidate me and what I would like to roll to counter.

Though it was clearly stated up higher in the thread that will saves are NOT used,

"One particular thing people forget about Intimidate that it is NOT countered by will saves.
It is countered by Hit dice/2 + wisdom bonus + saves against fear"

I am still seeing references to using will saves as the counter to intimidate.

"To resist Intimidate, On BG I just roll a will save."

If you roll HD/2 +wisdom bonus +saves against fear. Everyone is going be like, HUH?

Just roll a will save and act as if.

The effectiveness of the intimidate is up to the one targeted. Its up to them to RP it as they feel there character would. Punching the person right in the face that just rolled the natural 20 intimidate check is not a unrealistic response. Hey maybe my character faces his fears head on!

We are over thinking this one. It is a tool for RP. That's it

just roll wisdom + level + fear save mods

What I dont like about intimidation rolls is that its forceful, or thats how it comes off most often at least. Im aware that it depends on the scenario of course, but I have yet to see anyone use it in a non-forceful way and there is after all, many ways to be intimidating, or attempt intimidation.

I think thats the main issue with skill rolls outside of DM events, people tend to lead their RP in a direction where they can apply the roll type which their character excells at.

Personally I always used skill rolls not to force anything, but to show the other player I was roleplaying with, the skills of my character. I never asked for counter-rolls.

I have a character with very high social skills. I hardly ever roll them. I just got to use them in an event recently and got a little giddy. When I do roll them I use them only as flavour and I avoid intimidate even more. If my character isn't really trying to lie, I don't roll bluff.

Remarkable amounts of RP can be done before a roll is necessary, and it's usually good. A while ago I ended up in a stare-off and it looked like the only way it was going to end was through blows or someone folding. I ended up folding because I OOCly didn't want to disrupt a gathering going on, ICly letting my character be distracted, which the other person considered as winning, which in turn created even more tension. The RP was very good and we both made an enemy.

I think the biggest problem with intimidate apart from people abusing it with near to no RP to back it up with is that "minority" that don't want to play on fear. That's my experience, anyway. A fighter having a low will save doesn't mean they can't get scared by that angry gnome. But again, RP > rolls. If the RP is bad, I don't respect the intimidate attempt, regardless of how high the skills are.

I have no problem, checking rolls

I think intimidate should be checkable via sense motive, (I know what you are doing, and it doesn't scare me!) intimidate (Excuse me, was that a threat?), bluff, (yeah, well do as you wish, but I just watch out for my fellows hiding behind you) or Diplomacy (come now, we can settle this like gentlemen, can't we?)

However, what I find amazing, is people will roll, I will counter the check, and they'll go on. Why roll, if you are not going to respect the outcome?

Oh yeah.

Cuz winning. (like charlie sheen)