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Re: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:34 pm
by Rasael
I dont remember right now if we changed their descriptions. Did we? I thought we had.
Re: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:34 pm
by chad878262
I have to say, my Bard Alternate has always been far more powerful than my main and with the Dispel fix their power has only increased...Consider this:
In order to keep a CL30 an Arcane Gish can either go F3/AK10/W17, having a BAB of 21 OR they could go W13/AK10/DS7 w/ a BAB of 23, but requiring more feat investment.
A Bard26/Fighter4 has no issues getting IPA and being a melee wrecking ball while requiring less investment in Charisma than the Arcane Gish requires in INT or CHA. It has full caster level and a BAB of 23, but did not require any feat investment (DS requires 2 feats you probably would not take otherwise). In addition to this it has all it's songs, inspirations and epic bonus feats at level 23 and 26 bard as well as level 4 fighter probably being epic as well.
I can't take a comment about bard's having any glaring weaknesses seriously, they are power houses.
Re: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:40 pm
by Boddynock
I read the spell, NWN2 isn't D&D, its based off it. How do you justify dragon druids? Or favored souls getting all of the cherry picked abilities they get. How do you justify truesight trumping an entire school of magic (illusion)? Bards are strong, I know, but bards are balanced by a huge weakness that is easy to take advantage of.
Did Owl's insight get nerfed in half? It gives a whopping +12 to wisdom (+6 to spot and listen +6 to will saves, and +6 to DCs). What about oaken resilience, 10 minutes of sneak attack and crit immunity? Does it cost more uses of wild shape? Does it have a shorter duration, or can you now...give it to your friends?
It just seems odd that amplify was on the list of stuff that needed tinkering.
Re: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:40 pm
by LISA100595
I'd rather not post on each and every spell that has been changed, Nor do I want to offend any D&D or PnP players, so i'll simply say this... We are playing Neverwinter Nights 2, Forgotten Realms, not D&D PnP. The spell should work as it's intended in
This game.
Just my opinion, not to offend anyone nor seem ungrateful for all the work that's gone into this. I do feel this is going too far and getting far too complicated though.
*Edited to clarify PnP specifically*
Re: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:45 pm
by Stonebar
Transmutation [Sonic]
Level: Bard 1,
Components: S,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long ( 400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text
You need to hear what's going on. A hand motion or two, and the voices become louder to your ears.
You cause an amplification of all sounds within the spell's area. This decreases the DC to hear those sounds by 20. Those creatures within the spell's area do not notice the increased amplification. Thus, anyone whose voice is amplified remains unaware of the increase in volume.
The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can apply spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature's possession receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. Amplify counters and dispels silence, and is also countered and dispelled by silence.
Ok any PnP person knows this, the WILL save is if someone else cast the spell
on you and is NOT a WILL save for those around you. So those Moving silently get NO save. Unless they are the ones Amp is being cast on, not effected by, but cast on.
This decreases the DC to hear those sounds by 20,
nothing in that effects others as well, only adds to your ability to hear, as your DC to hear them is lowered not that their Move silently is lowered.
Re: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:46 pm
by mrm3ntalist
Boddynock wrote:I read the spell, NWN2 isn't D&D, its based off it. How do you justify dragon druids? Or favored souls getting all of the cherry picked abilities they get. How do you justify truesight trumping an entire school of magic (illusion)? Bards are strong, I know, but bards are balanced by a huge weakness that is easy to take advantage of.
Dnd to the side, do you consider +20 on an mechanically importnant skill fair? On a low magic world?
Did Owl's insight get nerfed in half? It gives a whopping +12 to wisdom (+6 to spot and listen +6 to will saves, and +6 to DCs). What about oaken resilience, 10 minutes of sneak attack and crit immunity? Does it cost more uses of wild shape? Does it have a shorter duration, or can you now...give it to your friends?
It just seems odd that amplify was on the list of stuff that needed tinkering.
You can make a post about anything else that you think needs changing. I am not going to argue about everything else when we now talk about amplify and C&C
Re: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:51 pm
by chad878262
We have had many debates about stealth vs. spot/listen and seeing as that is the only thing amplify and c&c are used against I fail to see your issue. You're concerned about low DC? Stealth PC's will saves are TERRIBLE, so I think you will be ok. A level 30 Roguish type might have what? 10-15 Will save DC? Your CHA based bard example should have a pretty strong chance, certainly over 50% of them failing the will save. Not too mention there is NO Spell that even comes close to such a HUGE bonus that applies as a counter to amplify. On top of this there is plenty of equipment to buff listen at +4 per slot, while most stealth equipment is +2...
I have a feeling Bards, Druids, and Rangers can still pretty much spot every single sneak on the server with relative ease.
Re: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:02 pm
by Stonebar
What is the goal then, more fair or PnP? As it seems the goal for all the new changes are to reflect PnP more. So if fairness is the goal and not DnD PnP then that reasoning should be up placed up front and PnP should never come in to the discussion for any Spell or Skill changes.
Re: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:09 pm
by DM Golem
Stonebar wrote:What is the goal then, more fair or PnP? As it seems the goal for all the new changes are to reflect PnP more. So if fairness is the goal and not DnD PnP then that reasoning should be up placed up front and PnP should never come in to the discussion for any Spell or Skill changes.
They are not mutually exclusive.
PnP accuracy is nice, but concessions have to be made to NWN2, and to BG and its level 30 / "unique economy" world.
For RP, PNP will probably gain more weight, as fairness does not really come into it.
For something like stealth vs detect, item availability and the like are clearly important
Re: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:10 pm
by mrm3ntalist
Stonebar wrote:What is the goal then, more fair or PnP?
Both are
As it seems the goal for all the new changes are to reflect PnP more. So if fairness is the goal and not DnD PnP then that reasoning should be up placed up front and PnP should never come in to the discussion for any Spell or Skill changes.
Which version is "better" for you? This one or the old one?
Personally whichever way i look at it ("fair" or DnD ) the new version is better. Tell me, if you were to make a new spell that gives a bonus to a skill, what would you ask the number to be? +20?
Re: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:20 pm
by Stonebar
What I am saying is a person should not use PnP rules as Proof that something should be changed, if the goal is to also to change those pnp rules. So people supporting the changes need to stop pointing to PnP for supporting as reasoning for a change or proof it should be like X or Y. It should simply be "we like the new changes because of X Y Z", or "we were inspired by", or "fairness is better for the environment do to X factor".
On the purely fairness side, I think +20 to anything is way over powered. But I also feel the same about +6 bonus to all save spells, and +9 Nat armor bonus' etc...
Re: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:23 pm
by Boddynock
mrm3ntalist wrote:Boddynock wrote:I read the spell, NWN2 isn't D&D, its based off it. How do you justify dragon druids? Or favored souls getting all of the cherry picked abilities they get. How do you justify truesight trumping an entire school of magic (illusion)? Bards are strong, I know, but bards are balanced by a huge weakness that is easy to take advantage of.
Dnd to the side, do you consider +20 on an mechanically importnant skill fair? On a low magic world?
Did Owl's insight get nerfed in half? It gives a whopping +12 to wisdom (+6 to spot and listen +6 to will saves, and +6 to DCs). What about oaken resilience, 10 minutes of sneak attack and crit immunity? Does it cost more uses of wild shape? Does it have a shorter duration, or can you now...give it to your friends?
It just seems odd that amplify was on the list of stuff that needed tinkering.
You can make a post about anything else that you think needs changing. I am not going to argue about everything else when we now talk about amplify and C&C
This is not a low magic world. Saying it does not make it so. This has already been beaten to death, so I won't belabor the point. But this is not even close to a low magic world, neither is the real Faerun.
Re: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:25 pm
by Boddynock
Stonebar wrote:Transmutation [Sonic]
Level: Bard 1,
Components: S,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long ( 400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text
You need to hear what's going on. A hand motion or two, and the voices become louder to your ears.
You cause an amplification of all sounds within the spell's area. This decreases the DC to hear those sounds by 20. Those creatures within the spell's area do not notice the increased amplification. Thus, anyone whose voice is amplified remains unaware of the increase in volume.
The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can apply spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature's possession receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. Amplify counters and dispels silence, and is also countered and dispelled by silence.
Ok any PnP person knows this, the WILL save is if someone else cast the spell
on you and is NOT a WILL save for those around you. So those Moving silently get NO save. Unless they are the ones Amp is being cast on, not effected by, but cast on.
This decreases the DC to hear those sounds by 20,
nothing in that effects others as well, only adds to your ability to hear, as your DC to hear them is lowered not that their Move silently is lowered.
This +1... In all iterations of D&D and D&D based games. The method to get around having a low DC caster was to take spells that only effected you, IE buffs, or were otherwise saveless. Amplify only has an effect on you and what you hear, therefore by even the PNP rules, you would get no save.
Re: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:28 pm
by mrm3ntalist
Boddynock wrote:This is not a low magic world. Saying it does not make it so. This has already been beaten to death, so I won't belabor the point. But this is not even close to a low magic world, neither is the real Faerun.
Allright. you dont like the low magic world. When, normally, the highest bonus is +4, what you consider a bonus 0f +20? From a lvl1 spell? That can be crafted on a wand?
This +1... In all iterations of D&D and D&D based games. The method to get around having a low DC caster was to take spells that only effected you, IE buffs, or were otherwise saveless. Amplify only has an effect on you and what you hear, therefore by even the PNP rules, you would get no save.
Will it be better if lets say amplify gives a +4 bonus as an effect on you and what you hear, therefore by even the PNP rules, you would get no save?
Re: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:34 pm
by Boddynock
mrm3ntalist wrote:Stonebar wrote:What is the goal then, more fair or PnP?
Both are
As it seems the goal for all the new changes are to reflect PnP more. So if fairness is the goal and not DnD PnP then that reasoning should be up placed up front and PnP should never come in to the discussion for any Spell or Skill changes.
Which version is "better" for you? This one or the old one?
Personally whichever way i look at it ("fair" or DnD ) the new version is better. Tell me, if you were to make a new spell that gives a bonus to a skill, what would you ask the number to be? +20?
Don't forget that the spell can only be used by one class, lasts 6 seconds per level, and that particular class can only normally cast around 5 or 6 1st level spells per rest, and will only ever know a maximum of 5 first level spells ever.