Suggestion: Mystic Theurge

[Dawrf]

Would you kindly behave in civil manner? Your tone does not make people appreciate your ideas. After the day of dealing with RL stuff this kind of attitude is the last thing I'd want to deal with.

It is a scientifically observed and documented fact how majority of all human interaction is non-verbal. Compared to body language and the tone of voice, words themselves carry surprisingly little information.

As an example I will now repeat the word 'Kitkat' aggressively, passionately, indifferently, timidly, and jokingly - in random order.

(1) Kitkat.
(2) Kitkat.
(3) Kitkat.
(4) Kitkat.
(5) Kitkat.

Were able to correctly identify when I was being aggressive (3), passionate (1), indifferent (4), timid (2), or just plain old funny (5)? If you somehow guessed all five correctly - then I believe you should start playing lottery. However, lucky success does not change the fact that it is next to impossible to discern the actual tone from written words alone. You would require extra descriptions or visual cues - and even then the other side of the discussion might still misunderstand.

Therefore, whatever tone you might perceive me to posses, it cannot be changed by any action mine, for it resides, solely within your mind.

You're barking at the wrong tree here.
If you want proper discussion about builds, you should go to "Build" subforum, toss an idea, and see what other guys will do with it.
Here it is:
http://bgtscc.net/viewforum.php?f=64

I am suggesting new content to be added on this server, and this is the correct forum for it. Now, if you wish that particular forum members are to participate in this discussion, then I am forced to clarify that it is not my responsibility to attract their specific attention to this topic. Their attention is of your interest, and therefore, you should just send both Karond and Teo personal message and ask them to chime in. Preferably in this topic so that their commentary is visible to all.

I voted no on your idea. There's enough casters and their PRCs.
You've also changed my opinion on the class. Rather than possibly having it as application-only, I'd rather not have it at all.

Have a nice day.

What objective standards could be used to determine a number of too many casters or their PRCs? Any preference on that topic is going to be purely subjective. Thus, I might be mistaken, but to me it appears your response is of emotional nature.

So what could I possible say to that? Other than, lol, triggered.

Now, I may have claimed to have a have a character called 'Lucas' - but the truth is, I do not. It was just as an example used to exemplify why someone would like to make a 'Mystic Theurge' or 'AD&D Cleric/Mage'. Now, even though I am arguing for this PRC, I am actually quite content with a mere Dwarven Battlerager. Thus, I am not actually arguing content for myself, I already have what I want. Someone else has already made the Battlerager arguments for me.

Therefore, while you are entirely within your rights to make an emotional decision just to spite at me, I would ask you to consider your stance because it is not my eye you are figuratively spitting at. I will most likely forget this whole discussion once the thread gets buried, but what of those who really want this prestige class? What do you imagine their reaction is going to be when you try to advocate for something you want? (You have a history of doing that occasionally, and I have read you do it.)

[Dawrf]

I don't think more custom caster PrC's are the problem. The problem is they are way better than the custom melee ones. Mystic Theurge can work but on no planet does it deserve a 10/10 progression. Should be 5/10 regardless of the dispel fix.

I'll entertain your thought: let us compare two hypothetical builds with it:

Wizard 10/Cleric 10/Mystic Theurge 10 and Wizard 15/Cleric 15.

Both builds have access to same number of spells, they have just as high caster level, but the second build gains extra Wizard bonus feat and has a higher HP and BAB totals thanks to those extra Cleric levels.

In other words, the PRC you suggest would produce worse results than just splitting your levels evenly with two base classes. That is the case before even considering that without Mystic Theurge, the second build could go for any spell casting PRC for that 'added might.' So why should the staff endeavor to implement a PRC that you would be ill-advised for anyone to ever use?

And with the server's recent dispel fix, both character would still be dispelled by anything anywhere. It is something to consider, when people RCR to change their old builds just to get those few missing caster levels.

Mystic Theurge needs to have that '10 + 10'/10 spell casting progression. Otherwise, there is just no reason to take it.

---

As for melee builds, how are you going to improve upon Weapon Master and Frenzied Berserker? Weapon Master improves critical hit chances, Frenzied Berserker increases Power Attack damage. Those are the two primary things that make a melee build successful, which explains why most 'mundane' melee builds have those two PRCs on this server, and others.

We already have two of the most powerful melee PRCs on the server, and based on the the classes that have been added, they have wanted to add flavor instead of more power.

But on the other hand, many of the mobs on BGTSCC, appear to be lacking in physical damage reduction. If they have it, it is a small number. Thus, some kind of strength based Fighter/Tempest/Dervish might actually be able to out damage the stock Weapon Master/Frenzied Berserker. (It would be due to number of hits and probabilities to hit.)

But anyhow, if you got some new PRC idea to suggest, feel free to start a thread about it. (Just because I cannot think anything from the top of my head, doesn't mean that neither do you.)

[chad878262]

From a QC standpoint I would never approve this with 10 Caster Progression in both divine and arcane unless we looked at several other PRC's such as BFZ. (This, of course, doesn't mean it wouldn't get in with full progression, just that I do not think I could be convinced to vote for it). If MT can have 10/10 progression in Arcane/Divine why on earth isn't BFZ 10/10 divine? What about Dragon Slayer or Hospitaler...why aren't they full progression (or more progression), or Eldritch Knight? It's because they are split between gaining Melee/other abilities alongside their progression. By the same token a Mystic Theurge is splitting it's study between arcane/divine...This, IMO warrants less than full progression.

While I would not think half progression is needed/warranted I definitely would argue that progression should be maybe 7/10 or 8/10. In this manner you could have a W10/C10/MT10 with CL21 (or 22) for both wiz/cleric and level 9 spells. Thus you would be about the best party buff bot anyone could ask for, but your spell dc's would not be good and you'd be very easy to dispel. You can't have it all and I think this would be a 'fair' way to go. You are still getting 9th level divine and arcane spells which is very powerful and there are spells that don't allow for save / spell resistance so there needs to be something given up in order to gain the benefits of both. Not to mention what would actually happen is you would have a C16/W4/MT10 (or the reverse, assuming level 2 spell casting for each is required) which, with full caster progression would give you CL30 in one class, CL18 in the other (with PSC). With 7/10 the best you could do would be C17/W3/MT10 which would give CL28 in Cleric, 14 in Wizard which I feel would be far more balanced for this server. so perhaps no caster progression at 2, 5, 8 would be best. If you want FULL caster progression in one or the other you would have to do something like C23/W3/MT4 which would provide CL30 for cleric in this example, but you would only get CL10 (only 3rd level spells) with Wizard. Again, the more you want of one the less you get of the other, which creates some level of balance to the PRC. You could (theoretically) utilize Hierophant to get more CL, but again, by sacrificing Wizard or Mystic Theurge levels you are still hurting the progression of the wizard so I think this (to me) seems the balanced approach to implementing a class like this.

This is of course only MY opinion and no one else's within QC. It's also purely a speculative discussion as there are still PRC's close to completion that we want to get in alongside changes to help out melee classes.

[Dawrf]

From a QC standpoint I would never approve this with 10 Caster Progression in both divine and arcane unless we looked at several other PRC's such as BFZ. (This, of course, doesn't mean it wouldn't get in with full progression, just that I do not think I could be convinced to vote for it). If MT can have 10/10 progression in Arcane/Divine why on earth isn't BFZ 10/10 divine? What about Dragon Slayer or Hospitaler...why aren't they full progression (or more progression), or Eldritch Knight? It's because they are split between gaining Melee/other abilities alongside their progression. By the same token a Mystic Theurge is splitting it's study between arcane/divine...This, IMO warrants less than full progression.

Black Flame Zealot - I agree, it is a PRC that should offer higher spell-casting progression. Because as it stands, from the top of my head, the only sensible build with that PRC is something like: Rogue 3/Cleric 20/Black Flame Zealot 7 - it gets caster level 28. (Use a cleric with Trickery domain to get the free Feint feat and Max your bluff skill. I suppose this build would work best as something strength based.) But I cannot deny that simply going for something like Rogue 4/Cleric 26 would actually work better in the long run, as you can get full 30 caster level and two epic bonus feats without having spend a feat on Iron Will. So there are some arguments to be had to raise Black Flame Zealot's caster level.

Dragonslayer - One of the perks of the class is that it opens up Tumble as a class skill and that the Spell Penetration feats should technically help overcome the loss of caster level against spell resistance. Now, although this PRC is open to all casters, I think the 5/10 caster level progression can be credited to be the result of this server's typical reaction to Gishes. (Fighter/Mages.) First of all, it grants all armor and shield proficiencies on top of the simple and martial weapon proficiencies, so you can easily qualify for Eldritch Knight. Hence, with Practised Spell Caster feat you could have builds such as Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Dragonslayer 7/Arcane Scholar 8, or Wizard 10/Eldritch Knight 10/Dragonslayer 7/Arcane Scholar 3 with no loss of caster level and BAB of 23.

But there is also another tangent to consider here: it also opened up the Practiced Spell-caster bug for 'legal abuse' to squeeze out those few extra points of spell DC. (On top of Tumble skill.)

So if someone wants to touch the spell progression of Dragonslayer, they will end up poking a can of worms labeled 'Gishes and BGTSCC'.

Hospitaler - Hospitaler is a 6/10 spell casting progression PRC. It has basically non-existing requirements and it grants Martial weapon proficiency for basically free. It also provides three bonus feats, of which two can be spent on Epic levels to acquire Great Ability line of feats. Therefore, although it is not the most optimal PRC for either Cleric or Favored Soul, it does offer some perks for Spirit Shamans and Druids that are not going for Dragon Shape. Just look at the free armor proficiencies, higher BAB, and not really loosing out on the epic bonus feats. (The remove disease ability is handy whenever you happen to roll one.) It has its uses.

Eldritch Knight - 9/10 spell casting progression. Sorcerer 7/Cleric 3 with War domain/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Scholar 10, or Sorcerer 7/Blackguard 3/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Scholar 10. I am not sure if anyone still uses builds like these, but you got BAB of 20 or 21 with caster level of 30. Then you have Epic Divine Might for damage, and Automatic: Still Spell to cast spells even in Fullplate. (Pre-nerf Quickened Bigby Sixes, Mords to dispel, Maximized Missile Storms, when everyone's 'Epic Equipment' was +2, and I think we can identify the source of the previously mentioned can of worms.)

So to sum it up: Black Flame Zealot should have higher caster level progression. But I cannot really argue the same with the rest.

As for defense of Mystic Theurge's '10+10/10' spell casting progression, I have previously suggested to make it so that a Mystic Theurge is unable to acquire any other PRC.

But if you wish to leave Mystic Theurge's door open for other spell casting PRCs... then in that case the lowered spell casting progression might be considered fair. However, there are issues with spontaneous spell-casting and PRCs. Namely that levels in a spell casting PRC will grant caster progression to base classes that those were not supposed to.

So, to my '10+10/10' without access to other PRCs appears to be the easiest way to implement the PRC, and avoid the related game engine bugs.

[thebeasttt]

I'll entertain your thought: let us compare two hypothetical builds with it:

Wizard 10/Cleric 10/Mystic Theurge 10 and Wizard 15/Cleric 15.

Both builds have access to same number of spells, they have just as high caster level, but the second build gains extra Wizard bonus feat and has a higher HP and BAB totals thanks to those extra Cleric levels.

In other words, the PRC you suggest would produce worse results than just splitting your levels evenly with two base classes. That is the case before even considering that without Mystic Theurge, the second build could go for any spell casting PRC for that 'added might.' So why should the staff endeavor to implement a PRC that you would be ill-advised for anyone to ever use?

And with the server's recent dispel fix, both character would still be dispelled by anything anywhere. It is something to consider, when people RCR to change their old builds just to get those few missing caster levels.

Mystic Theurge needs to have that '10 + 10'/10 spell casting progression. Otherwise, there is just no reason to take it.

---

As for melee builds, how are you going to improve upon Weapon Master and Frenzied Berserker? Weapon Master improves critical hit chances, Frenzied Berserker increases Power Attack damage. Those are the two primary things that make a melee build successful, which explains why most 'mundane' melee builds have those two PRCs on this server, and others.

We already have two of the most powerful melee PRCs on the server, and based on the the classes that have been added, they have wanted to add flavor instead of more power.

But on the other hand, many of the mobs on BGTSCC, appear to be lacking in physical damage reduction. If they have it, it is a small number. Thus, some kind of strength based Fighter/Tempest/Dervish might actually be able to out damage the stock Weapon Master/Frenzied Berserker. (It would be due to number of hits and probabilities to hit.)

But anyhow, if you got some new PRC idea to suggest, feel free to start a thread about it. (Just because I cannot think anything from the top of my head, doesn't mean that neither do you.)

Wizard/Cleric is a hybrid, it's supposed to get dispelled. Or did you only want the nerf to effect combat hybrids? With the way divine power works they'll be no reason to not take Mystic Theurge for many builds, turn your low AB into fighter AB and gain 9th level arcane spells for free :p The only way to properly balance the class IS to nerf the progression.

As for the weapon master/FB build, you don't have to make other PrC's just as strong but currently they aren't even in the same ballpark. I'm not in favor of that build existing anyways, frenzied berserker should really require rage just like battlerager and the barbarian class made less of a burden.

[Dawrf]

Wizard/Cleric is a hybrid, it's supposed to get dispelled. Or did you only want the nerf to effect combat hybrids? With the way divine power works they'll be no reason to not take Mystic Theurge for many builds, turn your low AB into fighter AB and gain 9th level arcane spells for free :p The only way to properly balance the class IS to nerf the progression.

And as I have repeatedly stated in my suggestion, Mystic Theurge would close away other PRCs. Therefore, limiting the viable builds into the realm of two base classes and Mystic Theurge. So please, do elaborate upon these many builds of yours. Present an actual example for why 'nerfing the progression' is the only way to properly balance it out.

And as for that combination of high BAB from Divine Power with ninth level spells, it does not come without its cost. (As discussed earlier on the previous page.) Either you make yourself easier to dispel, cut down your spell duration, or loose access to full spell books from both base caster classes.)

And as for Divine Power, you would still be better of as strength based cleric or EDM Favored Soul, they do not have invest on Automatic Still spell epic feats to make most out of their Arcane spell book. (Taking of armor to cast spells is... awkward, it can be done, but it is awkward. I've done with a gish before.)

As for the weapon master/FB build, you don't have to make other PrC's just as strong but currently they aren't even in the same ballpark. I'm not in favor of that build existing anyways, frenzied berserker should really require rage just like battlerager and the barbarian class made less of a burden.

What have you actually tried to build yourself? Perhaps I could give you some pointers.

[thebeasttt]

Wizard/Cleric is a hybrid, it's supposed to get dispelled. Or did you only want the nerf to effect combat hybrids? With the way divine power works they'll be no reason to not take Mystic Theurge for many builds, turn your low AB into fighter AB and gain 9th level arcane spells for free :p The only way to properly balance the class IS to nerf the progression.

And as I have repeatedly stated in my suggestion, Mystic Theurge would close away other PRCs. Therefore, limiting the viable builds into the realm of two base classes and Mystic Theurge. So please, do elaborate upon these many builds of yours. Present an actual example for why 'nerfing the progression' is the only way to properly balance it out.

And as for that combination of high BAB from Divine Power with ninth level spells, it does not come without its cost. (As discussed earlier on the previous page.) Either you make yourself easier to dispel, cut down your spell duration, or loose access to full spell books from both base caster classes.)

And as for Divine Power, you would still be better of as strength based cleric or EDM Favored Soul, they do not have invest on Automatic Still spell epic feats to make most out of their Arcane spell book. (Taking of armor to cast spells is... awkward, it can be done, but it is awkward. I've done with a gish before.)

As for the weapon master/FB build, you don't have to make other PrC's just as strong but currently they aren't even in the same ballpark. I'm not in favor of that build existing anyways, frenzied berserker should really require rage just like battlerager and the barbarian class made less of a burden.

What have you actually tried to build yourself? Perhaps I could give you some pointers.

Why even post this thread as a suggestion if you argue with every attempt at balancing the class? Instead you should just remove the poll and demand they add a 10/10 Mystic Theurge, not really a far cry anyways.

EDM Favored Soul is one of the strongest builds in bgtscc existence, using them as a baseline for balance won't help your cause. Oh but I'm doing the same thing with weapon master/FB! The difference is I'm not justifying a new overpowered class with " but hey weapon master is stronger!"

Speaking of which, feel free to give us your suggestions on a pure melee build using custom PrC's that compares to the damage of weapon master/FB/rogue/fighter, preferably with barbarian for the lolz. I'm all ears

[chad878262]

C16/W4/MT10, assuming full casting casing progression allows for an EDM with level 7 wizard spells and level 9 priest spells (priest spells can't be dispelled except by mords). With strength domain you can run divine power non stop while also having greater heroism, iron body, shadow shield, ethereal visage, etc... W16/C4/MT10 has shorter duration on DP, but with STR domain you can fill 3, 4.and 5 level slots with it... having CL30 in one and CL18 in the other makes for a very powerful caster our gish, there should be no possible way to hit CL 30 in either class if you are getting both.

[mrm3ntalist]

Were we to consider a hypothetical build of Sorcerer 10/Favored Soul 10/Mystic Theurge 10, we should be able to achieve caster level of 24 for both Sorcerer and Favored Soul. Without the dispel fix, we would be looking at a caster with 'practical' caster level of 30 in both spell books. But thanks to the dispel fix, a regular high level mob with that caster level 25 has 55% chance to dispel each of our Mystic Theurge's buffs. A mob with a caster level of 30 has 80% chance to dispel each of our Mystic Theurge's buffs. Thus, even with their expansive spell book, a single dispel can rob them of all their magical defenses and transform our Theurge into a pulverized pile of goo.

You put good thought in this. At first glance it seems balanced and so on, but when you look into it in more detail, then issues begin to surface.

For example SS10/Sorcerer10/MT10 with the bloodmagic feat (Req SS9: +4DCs +4CL that does not affect DC )

Thats a 28CL Sorcerer/SS both having level9 spells with excellent DCs.

The problem with such PRCs is that they can be very powerful and if MT were t go in, that could limit future content, such as a feat similar to blood magic.

Persnally, I feel that if you want to play divine/arcane hybrids, yu should be aware that you would be mediocre at bth, even though you can pull it off

[Dawrf]

Why even post this thread as a suggestion if you argue with every attempt at balancing the class? Instead you should just remove the poll and demand they add a 10/10 Mystic Theurge, not really a far cry anyways.

First of all I posted this thread to the sub-forum is called 'Collective Issue, Suggestions, Bug Reports' - because it contains a suggestion for new content.

As for 'arguing against' every attempt at balancing this class - it is because I cannot consider those earlier arguments factually sound.

For example, a '10 + 10'/10 spell casting progression Mystic Theurge will always be lagging behind the spell casting progression of a single caster class character. You can attempt to mitigate the effect, but the three by level twenty rule will slow you down. Not to mention that adding a fourth class to your build will only make even more susceptible to dispels. Honestly, people on this server should try to venture into higher level areas with low level casters and see exactly how fast their buffs get torn away.

Thus let us consider again that combination of Divine Power, EDM, and Ninth level arcane spells you were talking about earlier. A Cleric/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge would have access to Turn Undead, and hence be ultimately able to qualify for EDM. However, you would be required to split your ability points between Strength, Charisma, and Wisdom in order to have it all. Then you need to get all three Automatic Still Spell feats to cast your ninth level arcane spells while wearing armor, and the number of 4th and 5th level cleric spells remains limited.

As for Favored Soul/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge, although it does not have to invest in Wisdom, it is also without the ability to Turn or Rebuke Undead. You would need to multi class into Cleric, Paladin, (or Blackguard if it is allowed), and therefore you would loose either three or four caster levels from both spellbooks Mystic Theurge progresses.

Thus, were we to compare either build to an EDM Favored Soul, the EDM Favored Soul is better off. And we should not forget the fact that an EDM Favored Soul has much easier time avoiding the multi-classing experience penalty.

This is just one example of why I have argued against these suggestions to 'balance' beyond what I initially suggested. I do not see any validity behind these demand.

As for closing my poll. No thanks. It might just have 'funny' options, but it gives insight to what a section of forum readers might think about it.

EDM Favored Soul is one of the strongest builds in bgtscc existence, using them as a baseline for balance won't help your cause. Oh but I'm doing the same thing with weapon master/FB! The difference is I'm not justifying a new overpowered class with " but hey weapon master is stronger!"

Actually, if you look at the PRCs that have been implemented on the server, an EDM Favored Soul has been used as one of the baselines not to be crossed when adding new content. As I have explained above, I think the Mystic Theurge PRC I have suggested earlier falls underneath that baseline of mechanical power.

And once again, I would appreciate if you could present an actual argument for why my Suggestion would be overpowered.

Speaking of which, feel free to give us your suggestions on a pure melee build using custom PrC's that compares to the damage of weapon master/FB/rogue/fighter, preferably with barbarian for the lolz. I'm all ears

Go to nwn2db.com, search for builds and use the following criteria:
[*]Must have class: Fighter
[*]Must have class: Dervish
[*]Must have class: Tempest
[*]Minimum Strenght: 20

Or just check this one for idea: http://nwn2db.com/build/?204598

As for something with Barbarian, just go for Barbarian 20, Fighter 10 with Whirlwind Frenzy Variant, with following feats: Ice-troll Berserker, Epic Rage, Extra Rage, Extend rage. Now you can enjoy your STR 40~ knockdown, extra attack from your variant rage, +13 AC, and about the same damage output per hit.*

*(Terms and conditions may apply: Epic foes that are immune to critical hits, such as high level Dragons, Undead, Outsiders, among other foes.)

[chad878262]

While limited you can definitely make a Drow C16/W4/MT10 with EDM and Auto-Still 0-6 (you'll only be able to cast 7th level spells). While it may be a pain to remove armor people already do so today, especially gishes that aren't in epics/don't have auto-still yet. Now, that Drow is going to have 6 CON because of the requirements for INT 14 (+3 item to allow 7th level spells), 16 WIS, 21 STR and 21 CON so DEX is left at 10 and CON at 6. However, you will be pretty much immune to everything so CON 6 isn't exactly much of a detriment, (extended) bears brings it to 10 and then you also have false life, gr. heroism and vampiric touch... Again, one race can achieve the required stats so this isn't necessarily a major issue (though UD players may disagree....) Honestly though, even without EDM being considered Divine Power gives you a massive STR bonus and full BAB for 6 mins (extended) and with Strength Domain you can fill level 4 and 5 slots with Extended Divine Power to always have it up. When you throw on FULL Cleric spell casting along with Wizard spells like Shadow Shield, Deez's Repulsive Shadow Barrier, Shield, Mirror Images, Greater Stoneskin, Gr. Heroism, etc. you can make an essentially invulnerable toon so far as buff and bash is concerned.

As M3ntalist posted even taking out EDM you can build a Spirit Shaman / Sorceror caster build to fantastic effect as well. I'm not sure why this argument continues honestly. I don't see any way MT w/ full caster progression could ever be considered 'balanced'.

[Dawrf]

C16/W4/MT10, assuming full casting casing progression allows for an EDM with level 7 wizard spells and level 9 priest spells (priest spells can't be dispelled except by mords). With strength domain you can run divine power non stop while also having greater heroism, iron body, shadow shield, ethereal visage, etc... W16/C4/MT10 has shorter duration on DP, but with STR domain you can fill 3, 4.and 5 level slots with it... having CL30 in one and CL18 in the other makes for a very powerful caster our gish, there should be no possible way to hit CL 30 in either class if you are getting both.

I am being a bit of nitpick, but let us change that Wizard into a Sorcerer. (It helps you free those ability points for EDM)

The problem with the above builds is that at best the secondary spell-book will have caster level of 18 with the Practiced Spell-caster feat, and 14 without. Although it would be somewhat time consuming, a voluntary member of the QC could use their test character and try out in which areas they do not get dispelled with a caster level 14 or 18 character.

I believe such data would prove invaluable when determining whether a 'Mystic Theurge' character should be allowed to reach caster level of 30 in one of their Spellbooks or not. While it is true that having access to two spell-books increases your character's possibilities, it cannot be said to come without a cost. There is need to consider your character's ability scores, what feats you can squeeze into a starved build, and ways to avoid multi-classing experience penalty far before we even get to face any dispels in game.

Mystic Theurge requires investment, and if a player is not allowed to reach that caster level of 30 in one their spell-books, then I must ask if this PRC would really be worth taking?

[chad878262]

I have been to multiple area's of the server and posted in different topic regarding dispels.... Dispels are not the major issue they seem to be given credit for. tfunke has reduced the mobs that throw dispel / breach so having CL 18 in Sorc is not going to destroy your character. Besides, it's a Sorc...recast when dispelled. You seem to consider having a 30 CL divine to ALSO have level 7 arcane spells a non-issue and that is where we disagree. Simple fact is what is the MT giving up to get those level 7 arcane spells? A couple of epic feats some (useless) BAB and turn undead progression (that doesn't matter for an EDM build anyway). PRC's and any build is supposed to be about what you give up to get something else. As I see it this class gives up nothing, which is why I would only even discuss it being implemented if it is not full caster progression.

[thebeasttt]

As for 'arguing against' every attempt at balancing this class - it is because I cannot consider those earlier arguments factually sound.

For example, a '10 + 10'/10 spell casting progression Mystic Theurge will always be lagging behind the spell casting progression of a single caster class character.

Already proven false by chads post you conveniently skipped over. CL30 cleric with 7th level wizard spells is not considered "lagging behind" on any universe, even without EDM. Taking off full plate requires hitting a single hotkey and how annoying it is is irrelevant in a balance discussion anyways.

Or just check this one for idea: http://nwn2db.com/build/?204598

Epic areas are rampant with DR mobs, this build won't even compare to a Scythe WS/FB. Even worse against crit immunes because your base hits are awful compared to superior power attack.

As for something with Barbarian, just go for Barbarian 20, Fighter 10 with Whirlwind Frenzy Variant, with following feats: Ice-troll Berserker, Epic Rage, Extra Rage, Extend rage. Now you can enjoy your STR 40~ knockdown, extra attack from your variant rage, +13 AC, and about the same damage output per hit.*

You realize this build does less dps while raged then WS/FB does full time right? With rage you'll be critting for nearly HALF... Not to mention neither of your builds has expose weakness so troll harder.

[Dawrf]

For example SS10/Sorcerer10/MT10 with the bloodmagic feat (Req SS9: +4DCs +4CL that does not affect DC )

Thats a 28CL Sorcerer/SS both having level9 spells with excellent DCs.

And you should not forget that while the 'Bloodmagic' feat is active, our Mystic Theurge would suffer: 3 + (Spell level)d8 worth of damage.

Level 1: 4 - 11, 7.5~ on average.
Level 2: 5 - 19, 12.0~ on average.
Level 3: 6 - 28, 17.0~ on average.
Level 4: 7 - 36, 21.5~ on average.
Level 5: 8 - 44, 26.0~ on average.
Level 6: 9 - 52, 30.0~ on average.
Level 7: 10 - 60, 35.0~ on average.
Level 8: 11 - 68, 39.5~ on average.
Level 9: 12 - 76, 44.5~ on average.

The above Sorcerer/Spirit Shaman/Mystic Theurge would have 160 base hit points before constitution modifier. Casting three level nine spells in row would nearly kill your own character.

Now, in order to maximize your spell DCs, you are required to heavily invest into Charisma. Then you need at least 16 points in Wisdom to cast ninth level Spirit Shaman spells with a +3 item. How much can you actually spare invest into your Constitution ability score?

As a human, we could have starting ability scores of:
Str: 8
Dex: 8
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 16

Hello to being permanently encumbered. Hello penalties to AC. Or hello loss of skill points per level, if you choose to make intelligence your dumb stat instead of the other two. But on the bright side, the HP total of 310 (with Bear's Endurance) does allow you to cast few more spell in row.

A single class Spirit Shaman with the same starting ability scores would have HP of 390, and a life saving contingency heal. Not to mention more feats to spare, and +2 to spell DC simply for having caster level of 30 before applying blood magic.

Don't get me wrong, the Sprit Shaman/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge is interesting. But once again, it is not without its cons.

The problem with such PRCs is that they can be very powerful and if MT were t go in, that could limit future content, such as a feat similar to blood magic.

I believe Blood Magic was only added because Charisma based Spirit Shamans were bit rubbish. (They do not even get Eagle's Splendor to boost their own spell DCs.)

While you are true that Mystic Theurge could limit future content, but can you mention a caster class that would be in a similar position with our Spirit Shaman?