Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Young Werther wrote:Instead of "balancing" *cough,nerfing,cough* why not try powering some of the other classes up a bit?

I like this guy

I am hardly worked up, and nor is it semantics when people point to this image and use it as something it is not.

And Invoker, do you even know what my build is? And do you also assume I have not tested multiple bard builds? I know what is out there, I know what they are capable of, and I have even tested several of them, but I simply play what is fun.

Nothing I have said is about only my bard, it is about bards in general.

Ivan38Rus wrote:What aspect of FS, save for changing individual spells, should be nerfed?

Remove the free 10DR at level 20.

Ivan38Rus wrote:What aspect of FS, save for changing individual spells, should be nerfed?

Change it from High Saves all to just fort and will maybe?

Boddynock wrote: And Invoker, do you even know what my build is?

I know what it was (CHA), and what it isn't (STR). It's enough for the thread.

And do you also assume I have not tested multiple bard builds?

No.

I know what is out there, I know what they are capable of, and I have even tested several of them, but I simply play what is fun.

Precisely. That's exactly why your bard is the anecdote, and a thread targeting the best bard build out there isn't about you. Meanwhile, Thids' evidence about the best bard build out there isn't anecdotal.

This thread is about Bards in general, not hamstrung bards, mentally hindered bards, albino bards or any other RP variant. Not to say your build isn't good, mind you: it's just not the pinnacle of the class, therefore irrelevant right now.

Nothing I have said is about only my bard, it is about bards in general.

No. It has nothing to do with STR bards, aka the best ones, and the only ones relevant in this thread.

Ivan38Rus wrote:What aspect of FS, save for changing individual spells, should be nerfed?

None.

Just disable EDM server-wide.

Invoker, this build is about bards, any single bard is an anecdote, mine included, NakedBard incuded. That's why I have not attempted to speak based on any one build, but rather to bards as a whole, as I have tested everything from a DEX/CHA split, which is actually what Liam was (Not CHA) the the STR bard he is now (I even kept shield bash in his current build, knowing it is a mechanically inferior choice, because i like the idea of bashing people with a giant gong).

Speaking to bards as a whole means you weigh every example as what it is, an example. The NakedBard example, assuming it is not a fluke (which there is no evidence to support) is still just one piece of data lumped in with the average.

Even if we were to look at only the most optimized builds available for these classes, and balance on that (which please god I hope no one thinks that is a good idea), the absolutely optimized min/maxed dragon druid trumps both FS and Bard, is easier to build, and requires less gear than even the nakedbard, as it only really needs the spell list and wildshape. Staying power/survivability is way undervalued in these discussions for some reason, despite the to primary types of combat being grinding, which means a lot of mobs, and events, which generally involve mass spawns of dozens of mobs at a time.

All nerfing Bards and FS would do is change the order of Invoker's pyramid. There will always be builds that perform better than others.

At the moment rather than nerfing these something needs to be done for poor rogues. And Swashbucklers. For Barbarians I would suggest simply giving them Tumble as a class skill would help greatly.

I kind of agree with Invoker on EDM. It's cheesy.

Invoker wrote:This thread is about Bards in general, not hamstrung bards, mentally hindered bards, albino bards or any other RP variant. Not to say your build isn't good, mind you: it's just not the pinnacle of the class, therefore irrelevant right now.

Everything you say is objectively true except this. Anything you to do hinder strength bards is going to effect hamstrung bards, mentally hindered bards, albino bards, and even cha Bards. The only effective way to nerf one without hurting the other would be to tie mechanics like Requiem and inspirations more closely to the Cha score instead of Bard level/Peform skill.

Which is maybe not a bad idea.

But I don't think STR bards or CHA bards either one need a nerf.

No real opinion on Favored Souls, either. In fact I'd argue that Clerics are more powerful in a certain way now with the breadth of spells introduced in the major update patch. A Favored Soul can't really afford a spell pick on something like Revenant, but it's quite the powerful spell when a Cleric first gets their 4th level spells.

Anyway this is all speaking to the PVE environment. As far as PVP goes I really don't know, as I haven't had the opportunity to participate in much of it.

Thorsson wrote:All nerfing Bards and FS would do is change the order of Invoker's pyramid. There will always be builds that perform better than others.

At the moment rather than nerfing these something needs to be done for poor rogues. And Swashbucklers. For Barbarians I would suggest simply giving them Tumble as a class skill would help greatly.

I kind of agree with Invoker on EDM. It's cheesy.

This, pretty much. Balance in an upward fashion, try to avoid nerfs except when absolutely necessary.

Just preemptively putting this out here, because of the spontaneous popularity of this thread:


Keep this discussion civil. I am watching this thread.



DM Pun-Pun

All I know is that FS are basically gods when buffed. They walk around wrecking anything and soloing events while laughing at the lesser beings that might be able to DPS or cast spells or tank but not all three. The bard is not quite as powerful but requires far fewer buffs and gets to have a ridiculous amount of RP skills to make up for it. They are basically a jack of all trades class that masters all the trades.

When I made those joke patch notes they included "*Bards and Favored souls are now the favored class of all races to reflect RP". I can't help but think how true that is.

Edit: The fact that this threat exploded into multiple pages in a few hours in the dead of night I think illustrates that many people think the balancing is at least a little bit wonky. Some events have literally becomes a "Wait in the fugue until the DM stops trying to kill the Bard's/FS's. Also you died because instead of the DM going "Alright this guy is a ____ he might find it fun to ____ rather than fight _____" the DM is forced to go "Alright I will do this for the wizard and. . . oh the bard solved it. . . and i'll do this for the fighte. . . oh the FS killed it. OHHH I can do this for the ro. . . . nope bard did it. hmmmm"

Boddynock wrote: the absolutely optimized min/maxed dragon druid trumps both FS and Bard

No. It's definitely tougher, and kills a tad slower. Doesn't trump anything. And it doesn't even matter, because all of those and more can do everything there is to do.

is easier to build

L2P issues aren't a balance concern.

and requires less gear than even the nakedbard

Actually, nothing does. Not even Druid.

Staying power/survivability is way undervalued in these discussions for some reason, despite the to primary types of combat being grinding, which means a lot of mobs, and events, which generally involve mass spawns of dozens of mobs at a time.

Because the balance concern is the "can", not the "how easily". The second one is a categorized as l2p issue by any and all development team in every multiplayer game ever.

PvE balance has nothing to do with whether you faceroll on your keyboard or not. You either can, or cannot.

Thorsson wrote:All nerfing Bards and FS would do is change the order of Invoker's pyramid. There will always be builds that perform better than others.

At the moment rather than nerfing these something needs to be done for poor rogues. And Swashbucklers. For Barbarians I would suggest simply giving them Tumble as a class skill would help greatly.

I kind of agree with Invoker on EDM. It's cheesy.

+1, absolutely.

Endelyon wrote:
post

I think you missed something in my initial post. I am not advocating a nerf. In fact, I openly stated I am against it. I also think saying Bard is bad is retarded, and I believe that transpires from my posts.

Invoker wrote:I think you missed something in my initial post. I am not advocating a nerf. In fact, I openly stated I am against it. I also think saying Bard is bad is retarded, and I believe that transpires from my posts.

Yeah I don't read these things too closely. It wouldn't be the first time I didn't understand someone's meaning. Sounds like we're on the same page then, as Bard is a pretty far cry from "bad." You can even roll a gimped one and still survive pretty well.

AlwaysSummer Day wrote:All I know is

Not enough on the matter, and that's why you opened this thread, right? To collect feedback.

If you read my initial post with the type of builds again: there is no need to nerf anybody. A few classes need some help, and EDM is broken.

For the rest, some classes can faceroll through content, some others require actually playing without eating nachos with both hands. That isn't a balance concern.

I think you're getting what you want, but if not, then let me know what's missing. I'll be happy to help.

Invoker wrote:
No. It's definitely tougher, and kills a tad slower. Doesn't trump anything. And it doesn't even matter, because all of those and more can do everything there is to do.

L2P issues aren't a balance concern.

Actually, nothing does. Not even Druid.

Because the balance concern is the "can", not the "how easily". The second one is a categorized as l2p issue by any and all development team in every multiplayer game ever.

PvE balance has nothing to do with whether you faceroll on your keyboard or not. You either can, or cannot.

+1, absolutely.

I think you missed something in my initial post. I am not advocating a nerf. In fact, I openly stated I am against it. I also think saying Bard is bad is retarded, and I believe that transpires from my posts.

One at a time:

Well, if all of them kill everything anyway in PVE, let's look at the one other thing left...PVP. While I wouldn't condone balance changes for PVP reasons (and in fact railed against them in the thread about Amplify and C&C) if that is the only thing left then that is where the dscussion has to go.

You're right, L2P issues are not a concern, fair point.

*Shrugs* I guess we just disagree here, but I would wager real money that anything a bard can do a dragon druid can do in the same amount of gear or less, but once again, since they are both capable, what's it matter?

If PvE balance is a simple yes no answer, then many many many builds are perfectly equivalent, so how do you balance based on the simple criteria of "can" or "can not"?

Not directed at me, but I agree, +1. I would love to see some love for underutilized classes, and feats too.

Also not directed at me, but I don't think anyone here has stated or even implied bards are bad. Everyone here seems fairly aware we are discussing (arguably) the three most powerful classes on the server.