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Non magical PRC: Occult Slayer ('Homebrewed')

https://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?t=51450

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Re: Non magical PRC: Occult Slayer ('Homebrewed')

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:46 pm
by Dawrf
chad878262 wrote:I personally would like to see more availability of SR for mundane characters, but not sure I agree with giving 41 for 10 level PRC... Monks get SR, but can still only reach 40 if staying pure Monk without taking Epic SR feat(s).
So tell me, what is the difference between the this too high 41 and merely only 40? (The answer to that is just 5% against caster level of 30.)

Additionally, were you to create a Dark Elf or a Deep Gnome Monk '13/Whatever Else 17' you will have Spell Resistance of 41, and can boost it higher via those Epic Spell Resistance feats. Just a minor nitpick along with the fact that Monk 30 comes with its other perks as well, from extra AC to Epic Bonus feats.

But you are correct in a way, currently spell resistance is limited to Monks only, which means that if you are not particularly keen on role-playing a monk, then your only defense against spells and spell like abilities is via UMD... (As mentioned before.)

Also, out of curiosity, would you instead prefer to give '41' spell resistance to a HD 30 character via a 5 level PRC? Because, whatever character you create, those ten levels will eat away from your direct damage output, maximum AC, and other things via lack of extra feats. The '41' spell resistance does not come for free, and as already argued in the first post, it can be reduced to irrelevancy if the need be.
I'm thinking 35 is a reason to go full 10 levels in the PRC without taking away a fairly unique attribute that Monks and Drow have on the server.
An unique attribute that any Cleric, Favored Soul, Druid or Spririt shaman can already top with a level 5 spell that lasts for one minute per caster level. (It grants 12 + caster level worth of spell resistance.)

Now add in Heirophant PRC for additional +3 caster levels, and we are looking at spell resistance of 45. One that is even harder to dispel, and can be easily re-cast and extended for an even longer duration.
  • 'You think 35 is a reason to go full 10 levels in Occult Slayer PRC without taking away this fairly unique attribute that our server's numerous divine spell casters have on the server.'
Well, I for one don't. But if it is kept at '41' - your divine casters are still far superior at Spell Resistance - and it could be implemented with an already existing and fully working feat.

Re: Non magical PRC: Occult Slayer ('Homebrewed')

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:10 pm
by chad878262
*sigh* argumentative even when someone agrees with you in principle, if differing slightly in implementation. *shrug* carry on.

Re: Non magical PRC: Occult Slayer ('Homebrewed')

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:25 pm
by Yhztro
i want to say that assay resistance + disjunction kinda makes spell resistance useless. I would be happy with things like deathless frenzy that cannot be dispel by any means (from what ive read deathless frenzy is bugged and dispelable atm, correct me if i;m wrong).

Re: Non magical PRC: Occult Slayer ('Homebrewed')

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:39 pm
by NegInfinity
Dawrf wrote: But your addition of 'Know Protection' would be a homebrewed addition,
It is not a "My" addition.
Dawrf wrote: Thus a stock damage dice would be much easier to implement, you could literally do it by just copy and pasting what already works.
"No" for 1d6 extra damage to everything for no reason.
Dawrf wrote: If you look at Warrior of Darkness - or Anointed Knight to that matter - both of them provide additional damage dice (up to 1d4), three...
And "No" for a spell resistance for no reason (regardless of whether WoD is homebrewed or not). See, WoD at least undergoes a painful magic ritual. Occult Slayer just hates magic a lot.

---
joleda wrote:
  • Making all armor have the same total of armor+dex. Scalemail, hide, halfplate, every armor would be just as valuable.
  • Buffing all races to the power equivalent of ECL 2.
  • Adjusting weapons so that all are more equivalent.
Bad idea, bad idea and a bad idea.
Those "people" should play a mmo instead.

Re: Non magical PRC: Occult Slayer ('Homebrewed')

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:51 pm
by Dawrf
chad878262 wrote:*sigh* argumentative even when someone agrees with you in principle, if differing slightly in implementation. *shrug* carry on.
That 'differing slightly in implementation' is not quite what you present it to be.

A SR of 41, against caster level of 30 means that it will be penetrated 50% of time.

A SR of 35, against caster level of 30 means that it will be penetrated 80% of time.

The caster only needs to meet or beat the SR check.

This 'slight difference' of yours is 30%, and you previously presented that the difference of 5% was something notable between the drow race and 30 levels of monk.

But the thing, Occult Slayer could enable even 'multiclassed monks' to gain spell resistance. It would grant Monks new build and role-playing options, just as it would for Fighters, Barbarians, Rogues, and Swashbucklers. Thus, if you feel that a single class monk is somehow left behind in spell resistance, then that is at the fault of the monk base class itself. (I wouldn't mind if Monk's Diamond body was changed to 13 + Monk level.)

But... to reduce Occult Slayer's spell resistance to 35, it just feels like a complaint coming from a PvP-trigger-happy-arcanist who refuses to cast a Mordekaine's Disjunction, or whatever else. So yeah, I feel there is reason to be argumentative here.

Re: Non magical PRC: Occult Slayer ('Homebrewed')

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:36 pm
by NegInfinity
Dawrf wrote: A SR of 41, against caster level of 30 means that it will be penetrated 50% of time.

A SR of 35, against caster level of 30 means that it will be penetrated 80% of time.
I would like to point out that people will not be facing 30 level casters all the time.
So balancing a class against level 30 (a mage that pretty much achieved infinite cosmic power) is not the right idea. Obviously some of the casters you run into will ignore your awesome SR and drown you in acid, but....

The problem is that the class in your implementation just gets SR from nowhere and for no reason. Drow/and Yuan ti AT LEAST start with low value that gradually increases. You just slap HD-based SR at the level 10 which keeps improving even if the character no longer takes the level and it appears from nowhere and for no reason.

You're free to point at any PnP PRC that does the same thing (grants SR that improves with HD, not with Class Level), or even better, a class that does it on the server.

It would make some sense if you got SR at level 1 and it gradually increased with Occult Slayer level to a value of 20 or so....

Re: Non magical PRC: Occult Slayer ('Homebrewed')

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:45 pm
by NegInfinity
Either way, suddenly acquiring Drow spell resistance would pretty much only make sense to me if the character made a deal with a devil/demon, or have, say, 20+ ranks in alchemy, found and killed a drow, and then used the corpse as an ingredient. I.e. DM-granted feat acquired WoD style.

Suddenly acuiring SR that grows with character's Hit Dice doesn't make sense to me.

Re: Non magical PRC: Occult Slayer ('Homebrewed')

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:07 pm
by Dawrf
NegInfinity wrote:It is not a "My" addition.
It is what you have vocally stated to prefer, so it is your addition, you suggestion to the server.
NegInfinity wrote:"No" for 1d6 extra damage to everything for no reason.
I am not sure even if you understand what I am trying to say to you. You cannot have a copy and paste version of Occult Slayer from the page 66 of Complete Warrior. It is going to be complicated to identify spell caster, with a script, in this game. Therefore, the easiest way to implement what you have vocally stated to prefer, will be a stock damage dice against everything. And yeah, it won't be 1d6, more likely it will be just 1 point or 2. (1d4 might be too much since we are talking of a five level PRC.)

NegInfinity wrote: And "No" for a spell resistance for no reason (regardless of whether WoD is homebrewed or not). See, WoD at least undergoes a painful magic ritual. Occult Slayer just hates magic a lot.
Allow me to post this thing again:

'Occult slayers seek to train and hone their bodies to resist supernatural effects in order to hunt down and slay the most dangerous of foes – dangerous spellcasters, unworldly aberrations, unholy demons, rotting undead, and more.'

It is right there on page one. The first you can read after 'Occult Slayer.' Hence, they do not gain the spell resistance out of no reason. They have trained for it, perhaps it was how the Monks have trained to achieve their Diamond Body class ability - or perhaps they too have forced their bodies to endure countless malign magical effects. It is something up to the player themselves to decide.

As for 'Occult Slayers' just hating magic a lot - well, that is what sums up the source book version you have vocally advocated for. I mean, they can deflect spells - because they hate magic a lot. They deal more damage - because they hate magic a lot. They are immune to mind affecting - because they hate magic a lot. Etc...

Re: Non magical PRC: Occult Slayer ('Homebrewed')

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:19 pm
by Dawrf
NegInfinity wrote:I would like to point out that people will not be facing 30 level casters all the time.
Which forces me to point out that neither are player characters on BGTSCC level 30 from the get go. You start out by level one, and work your way up.
NegInfinity wrote:So balancing a class against level 30 (a mage that pretty much achieved infinite cosmic power) is not the right idea. Obviously some of the casters you run into will ignore your awesome SR and drown you in acid, but....
The thing is that the '11 + level' is actually balanced from level 1 to level 30 - as there are means to overcome it - more so in PnP than in NWN2.

And as it was said in the first post of this thread... Even the shittiest mage - is perfectly able to overcome the spell resistance that was proposed in the initial suggestion.
NegInfinity wrote:The problem is that the class in your implementation just gets SR from nowhere and for no reason. Drow/and Yuan ti AT LEAST start with low value that gradually increases. You just slap HD-based SR at the level 10 which keeps improving even if the character no longer takes the level and it appears from nowhere and for no reason.
You might just as well argue that the Monk class gets spell resistance from nowhere and for no reason. 'Can you image that, SR of 23 at level 13! At least the DROW start with a low value that gradually increases.' :roll: :lol:

So, Occult Slayer at level 15, would have SR of 26. (The default monk would have 25 at that point.)

Additionally, Occult Slayer is a PRC with max ten levels. You cannot take more levels even if you wanted to. Are you suggesting that it should be a base class instead?
NegInfinity wrote:Suddenly acuiring SR that grows with character's Hit Dice doesn't make sense to me.
I think there are very few things that do.

Re: Non magical PRC: Occult Slayer ('Homebrewed')

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:48 pm
by NegInfinity
Dawrf, you're trying to overwhelm people that are talking with you using endless walls of texts again.

Based on the outcome if Mystic Theurge thread you should already know that it doesn't exactly work.

See, when you say, "but the mage can still dispell" or another mecahnical thing like that, there's a very high chance that the other side already knows that, and they don't like your suggestion anyway. That applies to QC staff (chambordini) and folks like Invoker. So the best idea would be to look for compromise.

Me, I don't like "sudden spell resistance out of nowhere". It was not present in original PrC, in my opinion it shouldn't be there, and to me it looks like you're trying to make this feat specifically to slip through. Whether this is your true intention or now, I don't know.

Re: Non magical PRC: Occult Slayer ('Homebrewed')

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:46 pm
by metaquad4
Here, after reading this thread, I'll toss another idea for the same sort of role we want this class to fill (an anti-magic martial class) into the shark den.
Hidden: show
Magic Slayer (10 Levels total)

Requirements:
Base Attack Bonus: 4.
Skills: 5 Knowledge (Arcana), 3 Spellcraft, 5 Concentration.
Feats: Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Skill Focus Knowledge (Arcana). [As the old "Lore" skill is now Knowledge Arcana, this could fit as a requirement]

Hit Dice: D8

Base Attack Bonus: Medium

Skills: 4+INT Mod (Concentration, Craft (Alchemy, Armor, Weapons), Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Parry, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Taunt)

Saves: High Fort, Low Reflex, High Will

Feat Progression:
Level 1-
Abjuration Focused (Knowingly or unknowingly via jargon and hidden messages from their method of instruction (be it a book or a teacher), Magic Slayers derive their spell-like abilities from the school of abjuration. As they are highly focused on this one school of magic for the purposes of fighting magic users, they forgo all other kinds of magic. They cannot use any spells, feats, or items which derive use from any school of magic but abjuration. They do not require verbal or somatic components to cast their class' spell-like abilities, and as such can cast them when silenced or when wearing armor.).

Locate Magic 1/day, 2/day at level 4, 3/day at level 8 (Magic Slayers learn how to locate magical auras, in order to find their intended victims. They gain Detect Magic as an abjuration spell, instead of a divination spell. At level 9, this functions as a "See Invisibility" effect as well for as long as the "Detect Magic" effect lasts.)

Level 2-
Dispel Magic 1/day, 2/day at level 6, 3/day at level 10 (One of the most basic of their abilities, Magic Slayers who have delved into their training first learn how fight mages by dissipating their magic. The Magic Slayer gains a special form of greater dispel magic, with an effective caster level based on their character level.)

Level 4-
Spell Defense 1/Day (The Magic Slayer, after continuing their practice, learns how to defend themselves against magical attacks. They can cast spell resistance as a spell-like ability, based on their character level.)

Level 5-
Anti-Ward Strike (The Magic Slayer learns how to attack warded targets in a more effective manner, dealing an additional 1d4 damage to any target who is warded. At level 8, they gain 2 more attack bonus against warded targets. At level 10, each strike against warded targets decreases their concentration by (1/10) the damage dealt for 1 round.)

Avert Escape 1/day, 2/day at level 10 (The Magic Slayer learns how to prevent an enemy from utilizing magical escape techniques. The Slayer can cast Dimensional Anchor as a spell-like ability. This ability is cast at an effective caster level equal to the Magic Slayer's character level.)

Level 7-
Advanced Spell Defense 1/day, 2/day at level 10 (The Magic Slayer, now adept at defending themselves against magical attacks, can a spell-mantle like effect that shields them from a number of spell levels equal to (Magic Slayer Levels+1d6). Casting this will dispel any spell resistance on the Magic Slayer as the Slayer shifts to a more solid, but short lasting defense.).

Level 9-
Protection from Magic 1/day (Magic Slayers can learn one of the following abjuration spells as a spell-like ability: Lesser Mind Blank, Protection from Spells, or Freedom of Movement. Each have an equivalent caster level of the Magic Slayer's character level. The Magic Slayer also gains Resistance: Magic 5/- for the duration of this spell-like ability, when it is cast.)

Level 10-
Breach Magic (The Magic Slayer may now use a use of their Dispel Magic to breach 2 protections on a target. This breach does not lower their spell resistance, but instead lowers their concentration by the same amount (3 for 10 rounds).)

Seal Portal (The Magic Slayer can choose to use the principles of Dimensional Anchor to lock a portal shut instead. This requires more effort, and uses 2 uses of Avert Escape. The Slayer can cast Seal Portal as a spell like ability. This ability is cast at an effective caster level equal to the Magic Slayer's character level.)

---------------------------------------------------

[[[For those unaware:
Seal Portal: http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Seal_Portal
Dimensional Anchor: http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Dimensional_Anchor
Detect Magic: http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Detect_Magic]]]
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