[Feedback/Bugs] Thaumaturge and summons.

[Calen]

I agree with that it would turn out to be a complete mess if you were to give people alignment shifts for using spells.
But it is a slippery slope not to do it as well.

Anyway about the palemaster:

I think if your palemaster is using his evil undead summon , you'll have to get an evil alignment shift at the end.
Regardless of the intention since the BGC PM is only interested in summoning evil undead.
He's not looking for good/neutral aligned undead, he isn't setting them free or trying to negotiate.
This is the type of practice he/she has done, the focus was on evil powerful undead.
The whole concept screams evil.

A neutral person is able to mummify his organs, turn semi undead for the sake of experimenting.
Though I recall the replacing arm requires a will save in the sourcebook or you get an evil alignment shift.
But it can be done.


The moment you frequently summon your vampire, you can't be neutral.
Eventually your character will turn out to be evil.
Doing some deeds shouldn't be a counter weight to this.


This is why I also suggested to introduce neutral/good aliment undead.
I don't think that PM can be good but it would open the neutral path a bit more.




As for spells and alignment shifts.

Intention vs evil spel.


Vampiric feast:

-Why did your character learned this?
- What was the reason for using it?

Create undead: Another one of those spells.
It should give you a massive shift.


For example this is hard to judge for me:

Say your character used vampiric feast to stop an orcish raiding party from slaughtering a village.
Should it give you the same alignment shift as if you used it because well, you got attacked by 4 bears.


It might be the best just to keep the alignment shifts for DM events only and remove them from all spells.



Even though it is hard to justify why a good character will ever summon a horned devil for example.

[NegInfinity]

But it is a slippery slope not to do it as well.

This stuff should be judged by a dm, not by a brainless script.

I think if your palemaster is using his evil undead summon , you'll have to get an evil alignment shift at the end.

See, here's the problem. Using undead is not evil. Only creating them.

Palemaster gains a cohort and ability to control undead. Neither of those are inherently evil. 9th level summon represents this ability.

You should also keep in mind, that animating dead is risky endeavor - pnp undead stay in the world permanently but are not under your control. Palemaster's cohort is a bit a different thing. Nobody says that your char has created it. Maybe your char has borrowed it from nearby graveyard and the undead was following him since.

----

Which is why there should be no alignment-shifting spells.

[Rhifox]

It might be the best just to keep the alignment shifts for DM events only and remove them from all spells.

Which is why there should be no alignment-shifting spells.

Looks like we're essentially in agreement, regardless of some differences in opinion. Alignment shifts should always come through DM arbitrage, not a script that A) doesn't account for all actions, and B ) doesn't account for all of the variables in a situation.

[Darkcloud777]

Avasculate causes an alignment shift now.

[NegInfinity]

Avasculate causes an alignment shift now.

sigh.

The one big problem with this is that there are no spells that shift alignment towards GOOD or towards LAW. Always towards chaos or evil.

[Rhifox]

Avasculate causes an alignment shift now.

sigh.

The one big problem with this is that there are no spells that shift alignment towards GOOD or towards LAW. Always towards chaos or evil.

Exactly. Either every action (action, not just spells) needs to provide a corresponding shift, or none should. Alignment is an averaged tally of all of your character's actions, not just some.

[V'rass]

There can be good necromancers. One of the source books for arcane magic said that good necromancers do exist but are so rare as to be non-existent. Most necromancers end up neutral at best and usually evil but a good necromancer is not impossible, just very rare. I think the book was either Complete Arcane or Complete Mage. Btw does anyone even read the books here? Really should read the books before saying something is or is not possible.

[NegInfinity]

There can be good necromancers. One of the source books for arcane magic said

Book/Page?

that good necromancers do exist but are so rare as to be non-existent.

Good-aligned character can specialize in necromancy. Said character won't stay good-aligned for long if he/she starts creating undead.

To stay good, character will need to avoid all spells with evil (or vile, if available) descriptor in them.

[Rhifox]

V'rass is referring to a mention in Complete Arcane, I assume. But one should remember that being a necromancer is not purely about creating undead. It's about the study of the magic of life and death in general (though DnD loves to forget the life part...). Good necromancers are the ones who almost entirely avoid creating undead. While such a character might, on rare occasion, call or create an undead, it'd be something they do only extraordinarily rarely and with a heavy amount of regret. A good necromancer is the sort who'd focus on countering death, through their understanding of anatomy and the mystical elements of life and death. Too bad DnD got the 'omg necromancy is always evil' plague in 3rd edition and changed all healing spells from necromancy to conjuration. 3rd edition still retains some necromantic healing, though it's typically evil due to being personal-only vampiric effects, leaching life from others to heal yourself (IE Healing Sting and Vampiric Touch). There is still one proper healing spell (as in, can be used on others) mentioned in source books that I know of (Healing Touch, which damages yourself to heal someone else), but sadly it's the only one of its kind because people hate the idea of necromancers who can actually be more than just diabolical overlords with hordes of zombies.

Seriously, I love this spell and wish servers would be more willing to add it.

Healing Touch
Necromancy [Good]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
You transfer some of your life essence to another creature, healing it. You may heal up to 1d6 hit points per two caster levels (maximum 10d6), and must decide how many dice to roll when you cast the spell. You take damage equal to the amount the target is healed. This spell cannot restore more hit points to a target than your current hit points +10, which is enough to kill you.

Anyway, all of the undead-focused PRCs specifically do not allow for good alignments. Pale Master, Master of Shrouds, True Necromancer, and Dread Necromancer all have the requirement, "any non-good". Necromancers who delve deeply into the manipulation and creation of undead can be neutral, but they cannot be good. Dread Necromancer does explicitly confirm the viability of neutral undead-based necromancers, who commit evil acts as part of their activities but can avoid slipping into evil with enough good intentions and acts.

Alignment: Not all dread necromancers are evil, although the best of them could easily be described as evil-tolerant. No dread necromancer can have a good alignment. Performing evil acts is a basic feature of the class, but some dread necromancers manage to balance evil acts with good intentions, remaining solidly neutral (most PC dread necromancers fall into this category).

[NegInfinity]

V'rass is referring to a mention in Complete Arcane, I assume.

I actually checked that, and it pretty much says that "good neutral characters will let evil loose if they create undead" and that's about it.

But one should remember that being a necromancer is not purely

That's pretty much what I meant. There are necromantic spells without evil descriptor (death ward being one of them and enervation is another one). HOwever, all undead creation spells have evil descriptor in them. Meaning that good aligned character that starts creating undead armies won't stay good aligned for long.

[V'rass]

Pretty sure there is a mention in complete mage as well. One of the books describes the different schools from the specialists point of view and how they might behave. A neutral or good aligned necromancer would basically be a goth obsessed with death, would have a very negative or nihilistic world view, and would prob be a very depressing person to be around for more then a few minutes at a time. Think typical goths and pessimists in RL. There was a character in the first baldurs gate game with a very gothlike and depressing personality though he was not technically a necromancer. Would constantly go around claiming the party is doomed, that their quest is futile, and that they should all just give up and go home cause there is no point. As you might expect i did not keep him in the party for long.

[The Whistler]

Requesting a status report on Thaumaturge changes.

C-could we also get an option to summon Displacer Beasts p-please ?

[Tsidkenu]

I have listed the issues in the discussion thread but it had not really been discussed. I'll put it to a vote now. Note we are -not- discussing changes to Pale Master in our discussion, only Thaumaturge.

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Seriously, I love this spell and wish servers would be more willing to add it.

You mean something like this?

Blood of the Martyr
Caster Level(s): Cleric 4, Paladin 4
Innate Level: 4
School: Necromancy
Descriptor(s):
Component(s): Verbal, Somatic
Range: Medium (100' + 10'/level)
Area of Effect / Target: Target Creature
Duration: None
Save: None
Spell Resistance: No
You may transfer your own hit points directly to a target creature within range. You must transfer at least 20 points. Transferred hit points are damage to you. The creature takes your transferred hit points as if receiving a cure wounds spell and cannot gain more hit points than its maximum allows; any excess points are lost.

[Nocturnus]

I agree with that it would turn out to be a complete mess if you were to give people alignment shifts for using spells.
But it is a slippery slope not to do it as well.

The warlock Invocation Lure Shadow Demons shifts your alignment to chaotic occasionally.