Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

NegInfinity wrote:

Nocturnus wrote: Well, I said before yes they get stronger at epic levels, but 8d6 at level 18 is not reliable damage.

It is. Use chains, dooms and fight crowds. You'll outlast that archer of yours.

Also, PnP warlocks don't HAVE summons. The only summoning invocation is "summon swarm". That's it. Nothing else.

They do have interesting invocation called "steal summon", though..

Nocturnus wrote: Or get ride of Vitriolic blasts ignoring of spell resistance (until 21? when all invocations ignore it).

That will kill the class. You'll hit spell-resistant enemies even in epic levels.

Regardless of wether or not they have summons in pnp, this isn't pnp. So we have game mechanics to deal with. Warlocks aren't much more durable than a sorcerer even with improved combat expertise and really need a sort of meat shield or distraction to help out when soloing. Warlock spells all pierce spell resistance when you hit epic levels, removing the bypass of vitrolic blast and just giving it a bonus to pass spell resistance would increase variety in pre epic levels

Nocturnus wrote: Well, I said before yes they get stronger at epic levels, but 8d6 at level 18 is not reliable damage.

It's reliable damage since it almost always hits. It's not high damage, but it is reliable.

Nocturnus wrote:(until 21? when all invocations ignore it).

I believe that bug was fixed ages ago. You shouldn't get a free bypass all SR anymore.

Nocturnus wrote:even if it's just 2d6 or something it would still help low levels and not give much to epic levels

That's the equivalent of two epic feats, even +1D6 blast is way too much considering the epic feat equivalent. Items don't grant powers equal or greater than epic feats here. Besides, there is a pre-epic feat called "spell specialization" you could take. Few people do.

Nocturnus wrote:Regardless of wether or not they have summons in pnp, this isn't pnp. So we have game mechanics to deal with. Warlocks aren't much more durable than a sorcerer even with improved combat expertise and really need a sort of meat shield or distraction to help out when soloing. Warlock spells all pierce spell resistance when you hit epic levels, removing the bypass of vitrolic blast and just giving it a bonus to pass spell resistance would increase variety in pre epic levels

Balancing things around CL30 is just a bad idea.

You don't need a distraction, because you have infinite stoneskin. If you DO want meatshield, by some scrolls and you'll have meatshield. Not to mention that there's completely evil summon baatezu ability. Dead walk is also an option, because even if somebody kills your zombie, you can just summon another one.

I'm definitely against removing spell resistance from vitrolic blast, because there's plenty of stuff stuff you'll fight in pre-epic or early epic levels, and that stuff will shrug off all your spells. Of, right, some of those enemies are immune to acid damage as well.

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It is more durable than a sorcerer, because sorcerers run out of spell, while warlocks don't, it gets resistances that sorcerers don't have, and can apply their charisma to saves which sorcerers are incapable of. It also can use any spell from a scroll (which sorcerer can't, because it has no UMD class skill, and a rogue will have trouble with that due to lack of warlock bonuses), warlock can cast in light armor (sorcerer has no armor proficiency), it also has higher AB and more hitpoints (warlocks are d6 while sorcerers are d4), "heal" is a class skill. It IS more durable. There's also fun things to try like making a warlock taunter.

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My main at the moment is a warlock. Character is very far from optimized, and can hold their ground just fine. Surviving a crowd of mobs that surround you and attempt to murder you is very easy. A fighter or your high-damage archer with similar AC will get destroyed in this situation.

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The point is, the class is already very strong, and certainly doesn't need a boost.


Now, if you have trouble with it, try character building section or "tips and tricks".

Karond wrote:I believe that bug was fixed ages ago. You shouldn't get a free bypass all SR anymore.

Can confirm. You absolutely need vitriolic blast to have a chance of piercing spell resistance as warlock CL is halved during SR checks. This 'bug fix' is utter bollocks and the very definition of anti fun.

Warlock is a class which is already plagued by a dearth of gameplay choices. Pigeonholding players to a single blast essence on top of that is just plain wrong.

NegInfinity wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:Regardless of wether or not they have summons in pnp, this isn't pnp. So we have game mechanics to deal with. Warlocks aren't much more durable than a sorcerer even with improved combat expertise and really need a sort of meat shield or distraction to help out when soloing. Warlock spells all pierce spell resistance when you hit epic levels, removing the bypass of vitrolic blast and just giving it a bonus to pass spell resistance would increase variety in pre epic levels

Balancing things around CL30 is just a bad idea.

You don't need a distraction, because you have infinite stoneskin. If you DO want meatshield, by some scrolls and you'll have meatshield. Not to mention that there's completely evil summon baatezu ability. Dead walk is also an option, because even if somebody kills your zombie, you can just summon another one.

I'm definitely against removing spell resistance from vitrolic blast, because there's plenty of stuff stuff you'll fight in pre-epic or early epic levels, and that stuff will shrug off all your spells. Of, right, some of those enemies are immune to acid damage as well.

---

It is more durable than a sorcerer, because sorcerers run out of spell, while warlocks don't, it gets resistances that sorcerers don't have, and can apply their charisma to saves which sorcerers are incapable of. It also can use any spell from a scroll (which sorcerer can't, because it has no UMD class skill, and a rogue will have trouble with that due to lack of warlock bonuses), warlock can cast in light armor (sorcerer has no armor proficiency), it also has higher AB and more hitpoints (warlocks are d6 while sorcerers are d4), "heal" is a class skill. It IS more durable. There's also fun things to try like making a warlock taunter.

---

My main at the moment is a warlock. Character is very far from optimized, and can hold their ground just fine. Surviving a crowd of mobs that surround you and attempt to murder you is very easy. A fighter or your high-damage archer with similar AC will get destroyed in this situation.

---

The point is, the class is already very strong, and certainly doesn't need a boost.


Now, if you have trouble with it, try character building section or "tips and tricks".

NegInfinity wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:Regardless of wether or not they have summons in pnp, this isn't pnp. So we have game mechanics to deal with. Warlocks aren't much more durable than a sorcerer even with improved combat expertise and really need a sort of meat shield or distraction to help out when soloing. Warlock spells all pierce spell resistance when you hit epic levels, removing the bypass of vitrolic blast and just giving it a bonus to pass spell resistance would increase variety in pre epic levels

Balancing things around CL30 is just a bad idea.

You don't need a distraction, because you have infinite stoneskin. If you DO want meatshield, by some scrolls and you'll have meatshield. Not to mention that there's completely evil summon baatezu ability. Dead walk is also an option, because even if somebody kills your zombie, you can just summon another one.

I'm definitely against removing spell resistance from vitrolic blast, because there's plenty of stuff stuff you'll fight in pre-epic or early epic levels, and that stuff will shrug off all your spells. Of, right, some of those enemies are immune to acid damage as well.

---

It is more durable than a sorcerer, because sorcerers run out of spell, while warlocks don't, it gets resistances that sorcerers don't have, and can apply their charisma to saves which sorcerers are incapable of. It also can use any spell from a scroll (which sorcerer can't, because it has no UMD class skill, and a rogue will have trouble with that due to lack of warlock bonuses), warlock can cast in light armor (sorcerer has no armor proficiency), it also has higher AB and more hitpoints (warlocks are d6 while sorcerers are d4), "heal" is a class skill. It IS more durable. There's also fun things to try like making a warlock taunter.

---

My main at the moment is a warlock. Character is very far from optimized, and can hold their ground just fine. Surviving a crowd of mobs that surround you and attempt to murder you is very easy. A fighter or your high-damage archer with similar AC will get destroyed in this situation.

---

The point is, the class is already very strong, and certainly doesn't need a boost.


Now, if you have trouble with it, try character building section or "tips and tricks".

I'm not saying we should balance thing around level 30, but that's how it currently is. Look at past posts and it's mentioned multiple times that a boost would make far epic characters too powerful. The dead walk is useless most of the time, I'd rather use another blast than have to waste a turn summoning another weak zombie, which that turn can make the difference between life and death. Still you keep mention dark prem but that's a problem in itself, most of the warlock invocations are terrible and has lead to cookie cutter warlocks, it's not the players fault as they need to survive like any other. A good example of this is both caustic Web, it does virtually no damage and doesn't even so that good of a job slowing enemies down.

If the Devs get time they really should review current invocations.
first level and fourth level are bad for this. First level has a few invocations that has little use outside of single player or the very occasional dice roll. Frightening blast is a good idea but becomes useless after level 12 (in the UD at least). Eldrich weapon is actually good now that it's been fixed, my surface warlock uses it and is a dex fighter (warlock/Dragon Warrior)


No sorcs/wizards do not get to wear armor, bur they have shield and greater mage armor,
also if they take improved combat expertise it would surpass any armor. There is nothing wrong with my build except not being blessed with loads of DM items. Warlocks low damage output makes illithids a nightmare, so unless you make a cookie cutter and take repelling blast or tempest blast you will not be in a good position and the ridiculously low xp on this server encourages power building so they don't have to lose xp. I guess I got really off topic. Sorry

Tldr version: warlocks lack variety as many invocations need improvements and pacts need to be enforced

Nocturnus wrote: most of the warlock invocations are terrible and has lead to cookie cutter warlocks, it's not the players fault as they need to survive like any other.

Erm. You do realize that this is an RP server, and that you can level via non-combat means? Surviving is not an issue for pretty much anybody.

Nocturnus wrote: No sorcs/wizards do not get to wear armor, bur they have shield and greater mage armor,

You can also buy a scroll, and cast greater magic armor, shield, and maybe shield of faith on top of that, if you coax a cleric for scribing it for you, then put on your palading cloak, monk gloves, talisman of pure good and boots of pure evil, and head into sunset while playing (horribly, because you have no perform skill) your magic lute.

Nocturnus wrote: If the Devs get time they really should review current invocations.

Interestingly, current invocations are fine and as far as I know, they're very close to what is available for PnP warlock. So there's nothing to review. Now, there are invocations that aren't present, those would be fun to add.

NegInfinity wrote:

Nocturnus wrote: most of the warlock invocations are terrible and has lead to cookie cutter warlocks, it's not the players fault as they need to survive like any other.

Erm. You do realize that this is an RP server, and that you can level via non-combat means? Surviving is not an issue for pretty much anybody.

I ply in the underdark, it's dead most of the time so that's not an option. Besides doing quests there are very few events and RP xp is tiny. Also a lot of the RP I've seen involves RPing while grinding. No need for that condescending attitude

Nocturnus wrote: No sorcs/wizards do not get to wear armor, bur they have shield and greater mage armor,

You can also buy a scroll, and cast greater magic armor, shield, and maybe shield of faith on top of that, if you coax a cleric for scribing it for you, then put on your palading cloak, monk gloves, talisman of pure good and boots of pure evil, and head into sunset while playing (horribly, because you have no perform skill) your magic lute.

Scrolls cost money, in order to get money you have to kill enemies to reach chests. Again UD is dead and i don't like the surface. Why are you even bringing in rare high level gear? Unless this was sarcastic/a joke then i appologize.

Nocturnus wrote: If the Devs get time they really should review current invocations.

Interestingly, current invocations are fine and as far as I know, they're very close to what is available for PnP warlock. So there's nothing to review. Now, there are invocations that aren't present, those would be fun to add.

Again this isn't pen and paper, it will NEVER be pen and paper. Outside of rare roleplay opportinites many of them are not very useful. I could provide a list, but you clearly just like arguing. I have tested most of the invocations, the ones that only last 1 round are not very useful, Hellrim blast is nice as it removes their dodge AC but the spell resistance issue kills it past 12-14. Another example is Utterdark blast, dropping an enemy down two levels
has made no difference from what I can tell. The invocations would be a lot better if they stacked, even just a little bit. Firestide exhalation (?) is actually quite good if you need high damage, isn't useful for enemies with high reflex saves though. The teleport spell is nice in theory, but the 30 second delay limits it's usefulness outside of travel and PVP against a non caster. Witch sight? I have yet to come across an enemy that would make it useful. The one that gives you 4 ac? I could be wrong but I don't think it stacks with equipment (correct me if I'm wrong) and dragon scales give 1 AC, seems like a waste of an invocation. Lure Shadow demons is an excellent invocation, but if you use it in a hallways or corridor no matter the roll you get most f the time 0 will spawn. Binding blast is a decent idea but with tempest blast and it's 1 round duration it seems like a waste of a dark invocation. Dread word is neat but it hasn't really helped me much.

We wont agree on this and I doubt anything will done even enforcing pact restrictions, so this thread may as well be locked or deleted.

Here, I just made my current build on this if you're interested.
http://nwn2db.com/build/?243144

1st level Invocations:
Leaps and bounds
Enthropic Sheild
Dark ones luck

2nd Level
Eldritch Chain
Walk Unseen
Firestride Exhalation

3rd
Noxious Blast
Vitrolic Blast
Acidic Web (Testing it, going to switch it out)

4th
Words of Changing
Utterdark blast (testing it, going to switch it out)

Nocturnus wrote: 4th
Words of Changing
Utterdark blast (testing it, going to switch it out)

You don't have Dark Premonition.

It is one of the few invocations you'll want to have on almost any warlock build and you want to grab it first.

I"d swap word of changing for dark premonition, because word of changing has very limited use (healing, carrying stuff, opening chests, being hard to kill, and the like).

Nocturnus wrote:Here, I just made my current build on this if you're interested.
http://nwn2db.com/build/?243144

Why the heck are you putting points into strength?

IF you're a manipulator, then you increase charisma, because this will bump your DC.
If you're using hellfire a lot, then dumping points into con would make sense, because it will increase number of hellfire blasts.
If you're a blaster, then you don't have charisma, and put everything you can into dex, which will also increase AC and ranged touch success.

If you need "easier earlier levels", then you need to grab "fiendish power" earlier, at level 3, because it will boost your eldritch blast progression. At early levels large number of enemies can be blinded(beshadowed) or slowed(draining), which allows you to kill them before they even reach you. For a manipulator it might make sense to use AOE shapes like cone and doom, because they do not even check for AC, and instead check for save. Meaning you can hit something with a thousand ac, and unless it has evasion, you'll apply shape effect to them.

Ranged focus (IMO) won't help you much, because you are not a blaster, and your ranged attacks will suck, even with leaps and bounds (still better than 10dex warlock, though). Same applies to improved critical. You might as well replace the feat with something else, like medium armor proficiency + battle caster.

At least you have noxious blast.

Either way, head to tips/tricks forums and ask for help.

Nocturnus wrote: We wont agree on this and I

I think I'm done with this. "Useful" is subjective, and I highly doubt that askign for a boost for an already powerful class is going to work.

I still advise to head to tips&tricks section and ask for help.

Have a nice day.

NegInfinity wrote:

Nocturnus wrote: Stuff

Alright, well I appreciate the advice and I hope there is no hard feelings

Nocturnus wrote:

NegInfinity wrote:

Nocturnus wrote: Stuff

Alright, well I appreciate the advice and I hope there is no hard feelings

Nah. No hard feelings.

Pick dark premonition, and try fighting something. This is the invocation that makes melee warlocks possible, and It'll make a lot of difference against all non-spellcasting enemies. You can also optionally add foresight to that too, it'll give you +2 AC and immunity against sneak attacks. Premonition is generally much more useful, though.

Have fun.

What id used to do on my warlock back in the day was...

1: Dark ones own luck (Cha build).
2: Epic resilience
3: Tentacles!
4: Devour said tentacles for a hp buff
5: Ignore the Pyre (cold)
6: Tentacles -> stand in the middle of tentacles.
7: Start shoot foes and make them come to me and take damage while trying to hit me. If they fail rolls, thats a stun!

On top of this, you have Dark Foresight, Dark Premonition and Retributive invisibility (50% evasion). If you want to spice it up, you throw on Epic fiendish resilience for 25 hp regen. Then its really about using your go-to aoe nuke option and let the fun begin.

I always found that where warlocks are limited in spells (12 tops) you can be incredibly versitile with those few. And when an average hit is around 70, your basicly fireing high teir spells constantly.