Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

matelener wrote:In my opinion, shadowdancer is a weak class past level 3 (especially from the perspective of a rogue). I'd make the shadow jump like this: short range, short cooldown, short duration buff after use. Arguement: in PnP, at level 10 you could use shadow jump up to 16 times and do so very effectively in a combat. Here, it's not a combat ability at all.

Proposal:

Range scaling from 10 yards ( level 4 ) to 20 yards ( level 10 )
Cooldown scaling from 2 minutes ( level 4 ) to 30 seconds ( level 10)

One round duration buff after a jump: +5 hide/ms, +3 AB (bonus to damage also possible).

I agree

Especially if you compare it to ki-step its pretty lackluster. Going all the way to lvl 10 Shadowdancer is a pretty big investment and at the moment just not worth the trade-off.

In my opinion Shadow Jump should most importantly be instant like ki-step is. The CD is also way too high. It should have charges and regain charges over time.

I would also like to see Shadow Evade changed. Either make it instant or increase the duration. At the moment i find it to be very lackluster.

Akroma666 wrote:

matelener wrote: One round duration buff after a jump: +5 hide/ms, +3 AB (bonus to damage also possible).

Suggested 20% concealment and + AB instead if the hide/ms

I do t think either is needed. Might make it to OP. Considering you are probably jumping ten feet to get behind a monster to sneak attack. If you took back stab your golden.


I would be very keen on instant cast, multi times a day.

In pnp you can spam the hell out of it. It even replaces movement action. Well up to your 160 foot limit a day.


I would much rather keep it a field and movement ability to get around to do rogue things then more attack and damage buffs.


I have no idea why some think it should have a cool down.

ctothep wrote:In my opinion Shadow Jump should most importantly be instant like ki-step is. The CD is also way too high. It should have charges and regain charges over time.

Ki Step isn't instant anymore. There's a wind-up animation and it can be interrupted. But a cooldown reduction is probably warranted.

lostinspace wrote:

ctothep wrote:In my opinion Shadow Jump should most importantly be instant like ki-step is. The CD is also way too high. It should have charges and regain charges over time.

Ki Step isn't instant anymore. There's a wind-up animation and it can be interrupted. But a cooldown reduction is probably warranted.

way easier to get ki step and far less investment. Shadow jump is basically a level 18-20 ability.

it is probably more likely that ki step cd would get extended, but using shadow jump to attempt sneaks wouldnt work either way, especially if you are solo

and SD being a defensive PrC is highly unlikely to get any offensive buffs, it is already the easiest path to the best defensive ability in the game

Blackman D wrote:it is probably more likely that ki step cd would get extended, but using shadow jump to attempt sneaks wouldnt work either way, especially if you are solo

and SD being a defensive PrC is highly unlikely to get any offensive buffs, it is already the easiest path to the best defensive ability in the game

Well im not one to solo play.


Its why my first suggestion was in reference to being more use to group play. Almost all SD/Rogues travel with a partner or a group.


I wouldn't like offensive buffs, or defensive buffs.. I do not think they are needed. It just needs to operate like it should. It should also be as strong or useful as other things in its power range. Such as 9th level spells, and pseudo epic feats. As that's the commitment it takes to gain it =P. Maybe im being greedy. hehe.

Blackman D wrote:it is probably more likely that ki step cd would get extended, but using shadow jump to attempt sneaks wouldnt work either way, especially if you are solo

and SD being a defensive PrC is highly unlikely to get any offensive buffs, it is already the easiest path to the best defensive ability in the game

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

"The best defensive ability in the game" as you call it requires 25 Dexterity and you have to spend an epic feat on it. So, a question arises: What kind of a DEXer can afford 10 levels of a class with:

- requirement of 2 (usually unwanted) feats
- medium bab
- low Fort & Will
- no sneak dice

I can post a variety of builds and make them -much- better by not taking 10 SD lvls, mainly:

10+ rogue / 10 SD / X - If you want to get your damage from Sneaky Attacks, you need to invest in Epic Precision (10 Rogue). In this case, you could build a 16 rogue / 3 SD, gain the access to Epic Dodge and do way more damage (freed epic feats won't cover the difference). And then, we have 16 rogue / 8 assasin builds which are even better than 16 rogue / 3 SD.

12 fighter / 10 SD / X - You focus on a static damage, in return you might spend an epic feat on Epic Dodge. Yay. Or instead you could go for 12 fighter / 10 Dervish and get +3 AC (which is overally better than Epic Dodge in my book), high BAB, 2 high saves, +5 AB/dmg dances, +2d6 damage 5 round buffs, movement speed increases and then dip 3 shadowdancer for Evasion/HiPS.

The other 12 fighter/10 SD variation would be some crossbower. In this case, the better alternative is 8 assasin that abuses manyshot+DA. (Which I hope will get eventually nerfed)

If you know of not underpowered (in comparison to the alternatives) build with 10 SD levels, feel free to post it.

matelener wrote:

Blackman D wrote:it is probably more likely that ki step cd would get extended, but using shadow jump to attempt sneaks wouldnt work either way, especially if you are solo

and SD being a defensive PrC is highly unlikely to get any offensive buffs, it is already the easiest path to the best defensive ability in the game

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

"The best defensive ability in the game" as you call it requires 25 Dexterity and you have to spend an epic feat on it. So, a question arises: What kind of a DEXer can afford 10 levels of a class with:

- requirement of 2 (usually unwanted) feats
- medium bab
- low Fort & Will
- no sneak dice

I can post a variety of builds and make them -much- better by not taking 10 SD lvls, mainly:

10+ rogue / 10 SD / X - If you want to get your damage from Sneaky Attacks, you need to invest in Epic Precision (10 Rogue). In this case, you could build a 16 rogue / 3 SD, gain the access to Epic Dodge and do way more damage (freed epic feats won't cover the difference). And then, we have 16 rogue / 8 assasin builds which are even better than 16 rogue / 3 SD.

12 fighter / 10 SD / X - You focus on a static damage, in return you might spend an epic feat on Epic Dodge. Yay. Or instead you could go for 12 fighter / 10 Dervish and get +3 AC (which is overally better than Epic Dodge in my book), high BAB, 2 high saves, +5 AB/dmg dances, +2d6 damage 5 round buffs, movement speed increases and then dip 3 shadowdancer for Evasion/HiPS.

The other 12 fighter/10 SD variation would be some crossbower. In this case, the better alternative is 8 assasin that abuses manyshot+DA. (Which I hope will get eventually nerfed)

If you know of not underpowered (in comparison to the alternatives) build with 10 SD levels, feel free to post it.

A rogue doesn't take 10 levels of SD (*EDIT*, if they are looking to power build as opposed to RP wise)... However, a Monk or Ranger can take 5 levels and qualify for Epic Dodge (admittedly the Ranger would have zero damage since DEX focused with no SA, but the monk is a fairly common build (M25/SD5). In addition, HiPS aint such a low end defensive ability either so the class actually gives you the top two defensive abilities (or access thereof). Whereas Rogue doesn't get HIPS (without SD or Assassin levels), it does require 16 levels to be able to get epic precision and epic dodge... Point being, SD is the ONLY way to gain epic dodge without taking a minimum of 13 rogue levels, and it can be done for only a 5 level investment...

SD is in discussion, but I don't think Shadow Jump needs a major buff to be useful, though tweaking it is not out of the question. Improving the benefit and/or duration of the shadow evade as well as the summon are the primary improvements/benefits I would like to see for staying with the PRC for all 10 levels.

matelener wrote:

Blackman D wrote:it is probably more likely that ki step cd would get extended, but using shadow jump to attempt sneaks wouldnt work either way, especially if you are solo

and SD being a defensive PrC is highly unlikely to get any offensive buffs, it is already the easiest path to the best defensive ability in the game

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

"The best defensive ability in the game" as you call it requires 25 Dexterity and you have to spend an epic feat on it. So, a question arises: What kind of a DEXer can afford 10 levels of a class with:

- requirement of 2 (usually unwanted) feats
- medium bab
- low Fort & Will
- no sneak dice

Whether you buy it or not, Epic dodge ( as a feat ) is the best defensive feat there is, that is why that even if the prereqs are very high, most builds get it - and must get it. Its one ot the very few things that allow the low AC sneaks to survive.

I can post a variety of builds and make them -much- better by not taking 10 SD lvls, mainly:

10+ rogue / 10 SD / X - If you want to get your damage from Sneaky Attacks, you need to invest in Epic Precision (10 Rogue). In this case, you could build a 16 rogue / 3 SD, gain the access to Epic Dodge and do way more damage (freed epic feats won't cover the difference). And then, we have 16 rogue / 8 assasin builds which are even better than 16 rogue / 3 SD.

12 fighter / 10 SD / X - You focus on a static damage, in return you might spend an epic feat on Epic Dodge. Yay. Or instead you could go for 12 fighter / 10 Dervish and get +3 AC (which is overally better than Epic Dodge in my book), high BAB, 2 high saves, +5 AB/dmg dances, +2d6 damage 5 round buffs, movement speed increases and then dip 3 shadowdancer for Evasion/HiPS.

The other 12 fighter/10 SD variation would be some crossbower. In this case, the better alternative is 8 assasin that abuses manyshot+DA. (Which I hope will get eventually nerfed)

There are many other build combination you leave out. Monk builds, SB builds, Duelist builds etc. Basically, any build that does not relly on SA for damage, is a good candidate for SD.

What BMD said, is that we already have one offensive hips PRC, assassin since it gives SA prrogression. SD is not going to be like that, wont have SA dice etc.

If you know of not underpowered (in comparison to the alternatives) build with 10 SD levels, feel free to post it.

- monk3/F12/SD10/SB5. DEX and INT double damage. Can get a better defensive build than this
- the f12/SD10/R3/EA5 is the most powerful Xbow prc. The problem with Xbow is that it cant deliver as many attacks on the first flurry to kill the mob, so you are going to get close to deliver SAs then get hit as you try to avoid this. Epic dodge helps with that and a build with no SA dice can safely shoot from the distance withoug getting hit.

There are many other build combos with SB etc. In summary, SD is a PRCs with unique features and we dont plan in changing that. We are not planning on making it an assassin or SA PRC.

I hope QC considers perhaps.


Making shadow step

-instant cast. As its move action in pnp.
-can do it while stealthed. Currently beaks stealth.
- multi short jumps with no cd (as CDs constant beak at transitions)


Some notes

A tenth level SD is usually an 18th level character when they gain this ability. So the ability I feel should be on par with 9th level spells or near epic feats

At that level shadow jump is 160 feet which can be taken as freely as the sd chosen in a day. This can be 16 ten foot jumps which is idea to get around mobs and sneak attack from behind when playing with people. As most rogues/sds have to do. This really could be 32 5 foot steps as well. Though for the sake of ease I would love to see some where around ten, 10 foot jumps a day. No cool down.

I do not see a need to add buffs or stats to this ability.

It give good reason to see the prc to level 10.

I do not see any way this is OP. (Consider once again the commitment. And the place it's gained compared to other class powers)

The worst this power does is just but people to see some toon jumping around the screen. Sure that's bad rp. But we got lots of strange already. And that is not an OP issue


Can anyone think of a good reason it be OP?

Once again. Multi short jumps, no buffs added, instant cast.

Mallore wrote:-can do it while stealthed. Currently beaks stealth.

All custom feats break stealth. Until someone finds a workaround, this wil lalways happen

mrm3ntalist wrote:

Mallore wrote:-can do it while stealthed. Currently beaks stealth.

All custom feats break stealth. Until someone finds a workaround, this wil lalways happen

Fair . Just was a wish list of hopes.

Though thanks for letting me know! I'm not very familiar with how custom content is made. I'm just impressed by the people who do!!!

Mallore wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote:

Mallore wrote:-can do it while stealthed. Currently beaks stealth.

All custom feats break stealth. Until someone finds a workaround, this wil lalways happen

Fair . Just was a wish list of hopes.

Though thanks for letting me know! I'm not very familiar with how custom content is made. I'm just impressed by the people who do!!!

Ye, Rasael, AoS. Arakes, and the rest of the guys deserve all the applause for waht they can do with this very old game.

mrm3ntalist wrote:- monk3/F12/SD10/SB5. DEX and INT double damage. Can get a better defensive build than this

A pretty bad build even with a min-maxed tiefling. In the epic levels you have to squeeze in: Epic Precision, Expose Weakness, Combat Insight, Epic Dodge and PTWF (meaning you have to start with 19 dex then have enough points for INT and WIS). That leaves you with 3 fighter feats: Greater Weapon Focus / Epic Weapon Focus / Weapon Mastery. No space for weapon specializations.

In this case, you are better off by taking both less SD and fighter. For example, 12 monk / 8 fighter / 5 SD / 5 SB, if you are adamant on sticking to a DEX/INT/WIS min-maxed tiefling build.

mrm3ntalist wrote:- the f12/SD10/R3/EA5 is the most powerful Xbow prc. The problem with Xbow is that it cant deliver as many attacks on the first flurry to kill the mob, so you are going to get close to deliver SAs then get hit as you try to avoid this. Epic dodge helps with that and a build with no SA dice can safely shoot from the distance withoug getting hit.

If you want a low damage but safer playstyle then yes, it's a possibility. However, most players would trade SD for assasin and save three feats, 2 levels while gaining huge dmg output. Besides, if you plan on attacking from far away without getting hit then what for do you need Epic Dodge?

mrm3ntalist wrote:There are many other build combos with SB etc. In summary, SD is a PRCs with unique features and we dont plan in changing that. We are not planning on making it an assassin or SA PRC.

There are plenty of other SB combos, sure. And they are better off staying with 3 SD and eighter dipping Duelist for AC or getting it from a mithral chainshirt and/or a shield than sacrificing so much for Epic Dodge from SD10.

matelener wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote:- monk3/F12/SD10/SB5. DEX and INT double damage. Can get a better defensive build than this

A pretty bad build even with a min-maxed tiefling. In the epic levels you have to squeeze in: Epic Precision, Expose Weakness, Combat Insight, Epic Dodge and PTWF (meaning you have to start with 19 dex then have enough points for INT and WIS). That leaves you with 3 fighter feats: Greater Weapon Focus / Epic Weapon Focus / Weapon Mastery. No space for weapon specializations.

In this case, you are better off by taking both less SD and fighter. For example, 12 monk / 8 fighter / 5 SD / 5 SB, if you are adamant on sticking to a DEX/INT/WIS min-maxed tiefling build.

Eh? A bad build? Have you even tried it? What does epic presicion ahs to do with this??? This is a high DEX(25-26), Medium INT (16-18) that deals damage not related to the SA attacks. Its a killer build with a lot of attacks, High AC and Epic dodge.

As for your suggested build, i think you are confused. This is a kama build not a unarmed one

mrm3ntalist wrote:- the f12/SD10/R3/EA5 is the most powerful Xbow prc. The problem with Xbow is that it cant deliver as many attacks on the first flurry to kill the mob, so you are going to get close to deliver SAs then get hit as you try to avoid this. Epic dodge helps with that and a build with no SA dice can safely shoot from the distance withoug getting hit.

If you want a low damage but safer playstyle then yes, it's a possibility. However, most players would trade SD for assasin and save three feats, 2 levels while gaining huge dmg output. Besides, if you plan on attacking from far away without getting hit then what for do you need Epic Dodge?

Huge damage output? I think you are ambitious. If you dont plan to use SAs, which is pretty viable with an xbow build, then assassin brings absolutely nothing to the table. Epic dodge on the other hand will help when in tight places AND against ranged attacks.

Personally, Molags build is the best all around xbow build i played.

mrm3ntalist wrote:There are many other build combos with SB etc. In summary, SD is a PRCs with unique features and we dont plan in changing that. We are not planning on making it an assassin or SA PRC.

There are plenty of other SB combos, sure. And they are better off staying with 3 SD and eighter dipping Duelist for AC or getting it from a mithral chainshirt and/or a shield than sacrificing so much for Epic Dodge from SD10.

I beg to differ about it. You play a sneak build. Try it without epic dodge and let me know how it goes. Even if it is a build with speed increase ( which combined with epic dodge is what makes this build so able to avoid hits ) it will hit a lot, especially against mobs such as the frost giants.