Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

TLDR - Making it Cleric/Wizard only, with the no other PrC restriction is a good start.

Any new magic PrC is going to be scrutinised more because we all know magic already rules on bgtscc, whether druid, FS, cleric or arcane.

FS for example has often been talked about needing a nerf, so giving it an arcane spellbook of any level seems OP.

If you remove the Assimar FS/Sorc/SS cheese options then that leaves more room for an MT build to be introduced.

It also means EDM is an option, rather than an OP must as charisma is no longer also a casting stat (Cleric/Sorc/SS)

As usual its not the good RP'ers and players that do the research, post in forums etc that bother me. Its the majority of the playerbase who dont read forums and will just see a powerful casting combo to take on the creation screen.

BigJ

Tsidkenu wrote:A reminder of what happened last time this was suggested. (see last post esp.)

Let's please avoid that this time.

That depends on the nature of the thread.

If, like in the other instance, someone intends to try and shovel a load of crap on the attentive reader, and expect him/her to forcibly eat it all because that someone blindly believes in it, then I'm afraid we'll have similar results.

BigJ wrote:TLDR - Making it Cleric/Wizard only, with the no other PrC restriction is a good start.

It's what I suggested in the last thread, but it wasn't especially well-received.
I'm sure QC will do a good job of it.

The class in general seems pretty extreme. . . A class that can allow a single PC to be granted full specs on both casting fields?

Just think about how that would impact the roles of both characters who possess either the Divine or the Arcane. . . To see a single person who can cast both at the 9th circle! It would be as if coming across a sage of "The way" from kara tur. . .

It would have to be QUITE the rare occurance as just having such beings walking the coast as normal PC's would be crazy. Just think of it. . .
________________________________________________________
"Oh we seek a high priest. . . as we need someone who can perform a true resurrection" - Welp there is that Mystic Theurge nearby. . .

"Does anyone know of anyone who can call fort a planar gate?" - Oh well there is that Mystic Theurge nearby. . .

"Does someone know of anyone who can speak to a celestial animal?" - Oh well i know of that Mystic Theurge not to far away. . .
__________________________________________________________________

I don't believe a single PC should be allowed to have such prestige. . . as it pretty much goes against the un-spoken rule of "Uniqueness" and players who have worked hard towards their characters both Character build and RP wise would slowly but surely be knocked aside because there is someone who can do it all. . .

oooh well I got mine to circle 9 / an on way to 5 an I'm ok with that


It just would've been more fun for me if I could've gotten 9 / 5 without needing like I dunno trickster or such.. Honestly I really don't know if I could handle giving up my current character just because of how much versatility he has but, I see what you're saying

also I don't know about another thread I am not very astute with forums an was only recently told about a thread an found this when searching.

I think it would need to be nerfed I already corner a lot of the spellcasting market as is but, its usually the weaker variety like... I played with a dedicated wizard who became a pit fiend.. I can't specialize as a theurgist like that - to my knowledge.. Like went to Avernus an the person who survived was the specialized mage who could become a pit fiend which I cannot do..

I think a theurgist if it were to be done wouldn't be able to specialize which is sort of what I've done except I have sneak attack an can set traps an such currently.

I dunno if its really more extreme than becoming a pit fiend or what.. Also I've managed to accomplish this with relative success as is without a prc x.x so I dunno.

It really wouldn't be possible if I didn't have spells per day gear though x.x I also am not aware if it would saturate the playerbase with a bunch of mystic theurges - it miiight but, I really don't see many offense spellcasters playing here - I see them at times but, not like.. I don't go on long epic journeys with them because the rest cycles an such.. I think I've seen a few archmages I dunno x.x

I think it really would just not be a specialty caster with no turn undead etc.. which would really alleviate the fear of theurgist cornering the caster market also inability to get lvl 9 spells of both casts...

I really got epic mass heal just because I knew I wouldn't be able to get mass heal as my current theurge build even if I got a 15 / 15 split of JUST caster its not even possible by leveing also this effects the total number of spells for each school etc which people would have preference for varying school sets - more arcane focus - more divine focus etc..

There are people who would want that extra bonus feat an on an on x.x like divine casters don't have as much offense as well as splitting points an gear between int and wisdom is really challenging.. my dex is garbage an I put points into strength.. my Con is 6 haha

zen archery for the bow.. I really try to avoid being near the opponent as most mages would.. Epic toughness because I had 90 hitpoints at lvl 20

I tried once with 8 strength it was a terrible idea at lvl 20 I couldn't carry treasure x.x
like its not an easy PrC

Also I want to add I chose a school focus as a wizard just for the spell per day bonus, I can't cast divination spells from my arcane learning just so I'd have more spells.. I can cast them from my Deity rp wise but, like... If I remember correct I don't get to cast true seeing at all usefully, its level five for cleric but, I can't extend it haha.. I get no power words. I can't cast it from items as well if I recall correctly.. Like I can't cast premonition as lvl 8 spell I must use lvl 9 shades its like x.x theres very rare high level spell per item gear - I was awarded a lvl 6 spell lot cleric necklace from an rp event like three years ago when grogdish still played. x.x

its really like @-@ I've tried this several times its really difficult x.x [i <3 my char now though] but, I dunno it would make the idea more accessible an like.. I think it would've made maybe I have a stronger character earlier that wouldn't of relied on sneak attacks an traps - like I honestly with this character often feel like aside from a pure damage rogue, I've totally taken over their job as well its really like..

Like I dunno - I think it would bring more dedicated spellcasters into gameplay who really just cast spells - i don't see many of them x.x I feel like I'm one of them, but, I use my bow quite frequently. i.e resting limits an such.

Like I have no spell focuses - Its imperative to choose practiced spell caster feats an spellcaster prodigy at level 1 its a really narrow field of operation with this PrC

I can realistically only breach the most basic of spell resistance with one spellcasting class unless I cast assay resistance which - realistically how often do I have spell slots or rounds for that.. Its like x.x gotta be very proficient to play this.

like as mystic theurge I'd be perpetually poor - only reason I made the gold I've got now is from trickster levels selling traps for like 50 unless they are epic which requires tomb raider gear its like @-@ yikes...

sooo theurge is not like an op class it just has more caster ability.

like there aren't even clerics who just walk around casting spells its just really like @-@

like also as a theurgist I would lose evasion which would be a nightmare. x.x my throws would be a disaster.. I only have decent ab from trickster.

Like unless I took the water domain but, like... your saves would be so weak it'd be sorta weird unless you were serious rp like a water god [I can't remember their names from storm of zehir but they're all evil] like x.x

theurgist generally has weaker dcs because no epic level spell bonus on an on its not an op idea it just requires a lot more knowledge of the player of both divine an arcane schools an opponent saves.

Current theurgist viability is a little underwhelming as I'm lvl 26 an next leve I'll be getting lvl 4 cleric spells lol its just x.x x.x.x.x.x.x

like my current theurgist build with +9 to saves like.. I must have a general idea of who I'm targeting an even when I target their weakness its like 40% chance they won't make their save.

I often opt for orbs of acid or fire b.c trickster levels sneak attack - the damage even with 17 + 4 practiced spellcaster levels + 2 spellcaster prodigy is still usually just not there. Like with disintegrate or w.e avasculate is usually a go to..

Its just really a narrow scope of play an even with a PrC as I would like - the viability is still low, would maybe need frost mage or I dunno I just find it won't really be "op"

Its a very party dependent way of playing - I literally almost never travel alone.. I am so like WOW when I do because its just so dangerous.

Hi I borrowed your existant chart

I think this would be a balanced way of approach though I would like input. - it makes impossible to get level 9 of both spells an one caster tier would be invariably weaker than the other.

Please address concerns!

Mystic Theurge

Hit Dice: d4
Base Attack Bonus: Low
Fortitude Save Progression: Low
Reflex Save Progression: Low
Will Save Progression: High

Class Skills:
Concentration (Con), Craft Alchemy (Int), Craft Armors (Int), Craft Weapons (Int), Lore (arcana) (Int), Lore (religion) (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int) Heal (Wis)

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor ProficiencyMystic theurges gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Spells per Day:
Choose one class to advance spells per day / spells per day known
Advance both classes caster level

OR

Per level up choose what class you would like to advance spells per day / spells known
advance both classes level

At level 10 your studying of magic grants you one Bonus Feat

Requirements:

- Skills:
Lore (arcana) 8 ranks

- Spells:
Able to cast 3rd-level divine spells and 3rd-level arcane spells.



So right? That'd be 5/5
then 10 theurge so is 20

so you'd be at 15 with spells per day / spells known and 15 class level and 5 class level for the other or however

then thats 10 levels to try to change it up a little with either more cleric more wizard whatever you'd like! Specialize your theurge!

I found through playing that at about level 10 being a mystic theurge is really an uphill climb struggle of I haven't worked out ever in my life what is a jog? otherwise

I think there are concerns about divine power an I'm trying to think of them but, I really find that spell annoying to cast over an over again so I don't really know... If that is to be addressed

A theurgist caught off guard is so weak if you don't already know its like insane so the no PrC restrction might be a bad idea... Their rolls are already terrible so like leaving thaumaturgist or gond available is probably a good idea

Like an with this development - it makes the variations sorta very determined at this point like you can't like OOOO

added b.c of server restrictions you gotta pick these things sooner which would make character development challenging an on an on

like you could be a frost theurgist or so on but you can't really move outside the scope of caster very much... even with my trickster its sorta like x.x difficult... like I have two bow feats an just x.xI dunno its best I've been able to do

any caster caught off guard is relatively weak. I still disagree with the premise of granting level 6 or 7 divine spells to a CL 30 or even CL 29 Sorc/Wizard (or vice versa). IMO there has to be a balance, such as being able to obtain max CL ~26-28 in the 'primary' class and CL ~ 18-20 in the other, while being able to cast level 9 spells in the main and level 4 or 5 in the secondary. If you want level 9 spells in both max CL should be ~20-24 as a tradeoff.

sorry I was of the impression that bigbys is not a concern from previous thread.

ok well lets think then

5 level wizard = cl 5
5 level cleric = cl 5

10 theurgist = 15 / 15 with one class spells per day or like choose what class to level spells per day at time of leveling. caster level increase no turn undead or bonus feat.

say person got both practice feats so 19 / 19 [so now they've used their feats to raise cl - not dc of spells. just cl]

thats level 20

so if you then leveled 10 more just spell casting / cl classes

you could get at max 29 and 19 Caster level

Like.... an then if a person wanted frost mage or whatever that all would happen before level 20 so that would tilt the development, it wouldn't be this sort of god mode... or like... Divine seeker or whatever.

Isn't that the what you were talking about? No matter how you cut it it'd be 9 and 6 spell levels because its JUST caster level NOT spells per day both classes.

additionally it'd be the least amount of spells for 9 - an thats tilted favoring one divinity or whatever.. This is if a person maxed theurgist.

Prob best to just stick with 15 Cleric/15 Wizard... 8th lv spells for both and the ability to melee if need be. Don't get better then that.

it doesn't work because then you have cl 15 / 15 or 19 / 19 [with feats]

also level development

xp penalty

I've tried it - it doesn't work.. All your buffs will always dispel... its really awful

low ac because spells dispel can't wear armor no weapon - good luck doing damage with divine power but no strength or weapon proficiencies

spells don't last long enough for dungeons. The brevity of your response signifies the lack of experience with this x.x

Also to expand the point again

The lack of focus makes mystic theurge not quite as powerful as a dedicated wizard class to wizard abilities etc.. due to the lack of focus bonus feats epic level progression bonus to dc etc..

its a very defined by proxy of development pathing

Very unlikely to become a archmage etc.. due to limitations of class capacity / skillset on an on.

Also this is a preset class of Baldurs Gate original so, it has merit to be existant.

Reading upwards I'm not really sure what this would have to do with favored soul an such because you'd get charisma and int - favored soul spells last I remember are wisdom based dc an spells per day are charisma so, thats a lot of stats to distribute points into...

I suppose a favored soul / sorcerer might be frightening ?? Because they have a few spells they could cast often? Though they only have a few spells an the theurgist levels are low ab so, where they would be getting damage... Their versatility would be narrow... like


I think favored souls got their nerf when greater resistance and conviction stopped stacking

Convolutedline wrote:The lack of focus makes mystic theurge not quite as powerful as a dedicated wizard class to wizard abilities etc.. due to the lack of focus bonus feats epic level progression bonus to dc etc..

I disagree, it is no different than taking PRC(s) which makes it so you don't gain bonus epic feats that you get by staying pure. So this is no different than any other Arcane/Divine caster PRC. With regard to the DC progression, it's at 23, 26, 29, 32, etc. so if you hit CL 29 in one or the other your DC's are the same as the 'pure' caster with PRC's that doesn't get pure class bonus feats. However, you also have up to level 6 or 7 spells (could get level 7 if you were going Cleric or Druid as opposed to FS/SS).

Convolutedline wrote:its a very defined by proxy of development pathing

Shouldn't any build be well defined?

Convolutedline wrote:Very unlikely to become a archmage etc.. due to limitations of class capacity / skillset on an on.

Been said before, but if some iteration of MT get's in, probably the primary balance we would require is no other PRC's, so Archmage would be out anyway. You would essentially have to be a 3 class character with Arcane/Divine/MT and that's it. Not saying this is final (since no iteration of MT has been approved, nothing if final), but it avoids at least some of the power issues inherent to the MT PRC.

Convolutedline wrote:Also this is a preset class of Baldurs Gate original so, it has merit to be existant.

huh? I have played BG many times and MT is not a class. You can be a multi-class or dual-class Cleric/Mage, because it's based on 2nd edition rules...However, we don't play 2nd edition rules and it really is a matter of balance. It's difficult to give the MT enough to make it viable, especially in light of the dispel fix while it not being OP.

Convolutedline wrote:Reading upwards I'm not really sure what this would have to do with favored soul an such because you'd get charisma and int - favored soul spells last I remember are wisdom based dc an spells per day are charisma so, thats a lot of stats to distribute points into...

I suppose a favored soul / sorcerer might be frightening ?? Because they have a few spells they could cast often? Though they only have a few spells an the theurgist levels are low ab so, where they would be getting damage... Their versatility would be narrow... like

Well, let's review... First, it's actually Sorc/SS that is powerful, since they share CHA for DC's and you only need 16 WIS to get all the spells you need (if you want level 9 SS spells, 13 if you are only getting level 6 spells). However, you wouldn't be using your second class for your DC spells, you would use SS or FS spells to heal (heal is a level 6 spell btw) as well as for some utility buffing, but mostly it's the easy access to healing, plus an easier route to an armored caster if you chose (though you are losing DC if you go that route, you are gaining a lot of defense) SS could also gain you blood magic, so if you went 15 SS / 5 Sorc you could have strong DC's for SS and decent DC's up to 6th level spells for Sorc. Either way, they point is that you are gaining this utility for nothing, so long as you can still hit CL30, or at least 29 you still have full DC for one class plus the benefits of another (such as healing and defense as discussed). This is why I stated that in my opinion it has to be balanced by making it such that you can't reach higher than 26 or so CL, as that is a bit more costly, while still being viable in many ways. It's very dispellable, but so is Assassin, so is a Arcane Trickster that wants HiPS, etc. You give up something to gain something, as opposed to getting level 6 spells in the opposite casting type for essentially 'free'.

Heal is level five with healing domain for cleric and level six for healing domain cleric as well; allowing them to memorize more heal spells; just so you know.

but, thanks - I might've forgotten what I'm talking about.


I didn't know splitting points between int and wisdom was gaining for free. Having a lack of feats always makes for a very high dc spell caster, totally - I imagine thats why wizard's get bonus feats every five levels.

By that alone the dc's won't be the same - an if they focus stat point dump into one stat rather than another their spells of one class will still suffer - they'll have fewer spells per day of one profession.

There are literally theurgist creatures in Ulcaster's ruins.

Lets see an ARCHMAGE theurgst how would that be possible

Feats: Skill Focus Spellcraft and Two spell focus feats of any school (but not the same school), Once you have the two spell focus feats you will be given a qualifying feat for archmage. You still need to get Skill focus Spellcraft however.

Spellcasting: Able to cast 7th-circle arcane spells.

So you lose your practiced spellcaster feats most likely as you are trying to get archmage, right?

So then you've got 5 wizard 5 cleric 9 theurgist to get the minimum requirement because its "7th level spells"

You're literally at level 19 by this point which by server rules - oops sorry, gotta be level 3 by level 20 for all chosen classes.


Yes it should be defined - look at all the wonderful options of godliness that are unattainable!

I suppose I see your point of contention about spirit shaman / sorc sharing dc for mystic theurge with charisma. Their overall scope of spells is much less though additionally, a mystic theurge who is healing is obviously, omitting undead; not fighting. Covering two roles is a lot less daunting to that end same as fight cleric etc... There is a definite time constraint less they memorize quickened healing. Even then their versatility is hindered which is arguably the trade off.

Even if a ss / sorc is very powerful - they still wouldn't see that power til epic levels because the prereq would be level five of each class prior for the 3rd level spells - it isn't a quick route to power.

This would still be a class not likely to get spell penetrations, depth of spell focus

at best a wizard would get
arcane scholar of candlekeep which would cut into practiced spellcaster feats


Spirit shaman doesn't get level 9 spells til level 17 [online says 18] so they'd need

7ss + 10 mt leaving 13 levels for? sorc?

the 5 levels for sorc so lets see

thats

clevel 17 ss clevel 15 sorc
spells per day for ss level 9 is 3 etc
sorc would be spells known/per day at level 3 --- this is at character level 23

Lets say they took practiced spellcaster feats! Oh boy I guess they won't be putting feats elsewhere that is [ ss cl 21 ] [ sorc cl 19 ]
to my knowledge caster level dcs don't stack, it takes the highest number so they'd literally need to put their remaining levels into spirit shaman to see the dcs improve by virtue of caster level.


Additionally a spirit shaman needs wisdom equal to the spell level desired for casting so if a spirit shaman wanted to cast level 9 spells would need 19 wisdom unless thats been edited per bgtscc



I really don't know that the epic level caster dc is as problematic as the lack of specialization - I think that is a trade off, the lack of bonus feats - turn undead capacity, the inability to effectively multiclass to fight with a weapon. Like essentally a SS doesn't need sorc levels to damage because a spirit shaman can already do that, if they did that it'd just be for flavor - an don't forget their heal is level 6.

You would know that being a theurgist healer - you'd need the healing domain or, you might as well buy heal kits.. Which btw ; your strength will be too low usually so, you can't actually carry them ; you'd be encumbered. Have fun getting dispelled with bulls strength or its short duration, you won't have level 2 or 3 spells to fight with, too bad you can't use a weapon.

Good thing you make fast friends because, boy; you can't step outside without catching deathly fever like this.

I could respond sarcastically too, but instead I'll suggest you go back and read my response again, perhaps read the posts Tsidkenu linked from the old thread and learn a bit more about the synergies and why they are a balance concern...then come back and maybe you'll have a balanced suggestion, who knows.

You know, I've asked for those; and sarcasm is all I've gotten.


So please - if you could tell me where they are I will gladly read them.

I'd love to inflate my critique with false data as argument, I find thats a very rational, useful approach.

Let me get my crossbow out to hit for over a hundred damage per shot, I'm ready as a mystic theurge. Lets talk about balance!

The link is literally in the 2nd post of this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=50987

What exactly is false? You seen to think everyone will build to be even between the classes, they won't... The focus will be on either arcane or divine, with max dc/cl and the other IS just gravy